F-86 Buzz Numbers

[Smithy]

Really hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

 

I'm looking at modelling a specific F-86E in 1/72 from the Korean War and need decals for the buzz/call/serial number both the larger ones for the fuselage and the smaller ones on the tail fin. Does anyone know if anyone makes an aftermarket sheet for these in 1/72?

 

If not is there anyone who knows the font name so that perhaps I could make them myself.

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

[Paul J]

Microscale, now Superscale did a range for Korean era Sabres. Take a look in Hannants listing, they may still have them.

[RidgeRunner]

These specific decals are hRd to source. They were not Amarillo. The solution is to print your own. I have this font at home. I coyld send it next week. It will take photoshop to get it set up right.  PM me.

 

Martin 

Edited January 30, 2018 by RidgeRunner

[72modeler]

Tim,

 

Hobby Decals makes a sheet with F-86 serials, buzz numbers, USAF, US AIR FORCE, and 51st FG black checkers in 1/72. 1/48, and 1/32. I have the sheets in the two smaller scales and they are outstanding! I have attached a link to their site. (I am in no way affiliated with them and receive no consideration for the endorsement!) Beats the heck out of trying to piece together the buzz numbers/serials you need from multiple old Microscale sheets, believe me! Hope this helps you and any others who need F-86 serials or buzz numbers.

Mike

 

http://www.hobbydecal.com/category.cgi?category=Tail_Codes

[Sabrejet]

2 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Tim,

 

Hobby Decals makes a sheet with F-86 serials, buzz numbers, USAF, US AIR FORCE, and 51st FG black checkers in 1/72. 1/48, and 1/32. I have the sheets in the two smaller scales and they are outstanding! I have attached a link to their site. (I am in no way affiliated with them and receive no consideration for the endorsement!) Beats the heck out of trying to piece together the buzz numbers/serials you need from multiple old Microscale sheets, believe me! Hope this helps you and any others who need F-86 serials or buzz numbers.

Mike

 

http://www.hobbydecal.com/category.cgi?category=Tail_Codes

I'd recommend these too! (I have a small credit on the instructions so am a bit biased  )

 

Note however that the F-86 was painted at manufacture with a unique 'NAA' font (rounded style). Many aircraft retained this font (buzz number, serial number, 'USAF' script etc) throughout their lives.

 

If they went through overhaul at one of the NAA sites (Inglewood, Fresno, Long Beach etc) they were usually re-painted with the NAA font.

 

The 'Amarillo USAF' font (squared-off letters and numbers) was usually applied after overhaul or repair at USAF facilities (McClellan AFB etc) and so as ever a look at photos will be the best way to decide. I'll post a few examples later.

[RidgeRunner]

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

Tim,

 

Hobby Decals makes a sheet with F-86 serials, buzz numbers, USAF, US AIR FORCE, and 51st FG black checkers in 1/72. 1/48, and 1/32. I have the sheets in the two smaller scales and they are outstanding! I have attached a link to their site. (I am in no way affiliated with them and receive no consideration for the endorsement!) Beats the heck out of trying to piece together the buzz numbers/serials you need from multiple old Microscale sheets, believe me! Hope this helps you and any others who need F-86 serials or buzz numbers.

Mike

 

http://www.hobbydecal.com/category.cgi?category=Tail_Codes

 

ooo... That's very interesting :).... I happily stand corrected! 

 

Martin

Edited January 30, 2018 by RidgeRunner

[Sabrejet]

Here goes;

 

NAA font (F-86A tail)

 

 

Amarillo USAF (F-86A):

 

 

NAA font (F-86D wing):

 

 

Amarillo USAF (F-86L):

 

 

But as ever, there are always exceptions:

 

 

 

[Smithy]

Many, many thanks one and all for the help, it is enormously appreciated! And thank you Martin for the gracious offer to send me the font, although I think that I shall go with the Hobby Decals offerings that 72modeler and Sabrejet recommended - slightly more expensive but much easier!

 

Thanks once again everyone,

 

Tim

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

I'd recommend these too! (I have a small credit on the instructions so am a bit biased  )

 

Note however that the F-86 was painted at manufacture with a unique 'NAA' font (rounded style). Many aircraft retained this font (buzz number, serial number, 'USAF' script etc) throughout their lives.

 

If they went through overhaul at one of the NAA sites (Inglewood, Fresno, Long Beach etc) they were usually re-painted with the NAA font.

 

The 'Amarillo USAF' font (squared-off letters and numbers) was usually applied after overhaul or repair at USAF facilities (McClellan AFB etc) and so as ever a look at photos will be the best way to decide. I'll post a few examples later.

Now I know why that decal sheet is so good! Way to go, SJ!

Mike

[Smithy]

Just putting an order in now with Hobbydecal, thanks chaps!

 

Now I only have to make the nose art 

[Sabrejet]

Smithy,

 

Which aircraft are you doing? I can recommend a good decal producer (I have no commercial links).

 

SJ

[Smithy]

Hi SJ,

 

I'm planning on making James Horowitz's (later the famous author Salter) "Slow Boat to China" (50-625) with the 335th FIS. He's one of my favourite authors and his "The Hunters" and "Gods of Tin" are two of my favourite aviation books so it seems only right to turn my 1/72 Academy F-86E into his ship.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[Sabrejet]

I'm sure you have the 'flag' marking (it reads top to bottom), but a few years ago I did this graphic, just in case I needed it...

 

 

I have some background info on '625 too, if it's of interest.

[Smithy]

30 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

I'm sure you have the 'flag' marking (it reads top to bottom), but a few years ago I did this graphic, just in case I needed it...

 

 

I have some background info on '625 too, if it's of interest.

 

Thanks for that SJ, I'd drawn up the nautical signal flags myself as well, shouldn't be too much bother to print up myself hopefully.

 

I don't know a great deal about 625 apart from it being Marshall's Mr. Bones "V" prior to being allocated to Salter and him scoring his only kill on the 4th July 1952 with it. His description of that combat in "Burning the Days" is almost poetic.

 

Thanks for all the help,

 

Tim

[Blackfordhibby]

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

I'm sure you have the 'flag' marking (it reads top to bottom), but a few years ago I did this graphic, just in case I needed it...

 

 

I have some background info on '625 too, if it's of interest.

This thread gets more interesting with each post. I knew that James Salter wrote "The Hunters" and it bears little relation to the movie. A film makers licence I suppose, but I knew nothing of his actual aircraft. I must find out a bit more and maybe have a go at this one myself.

[Blackfordhibby]

1 hour ago, Smithy said:

 

Thanks for that SJ, I'd drawn up the nautical signal flags myself as well, shouldn't be too much bother to print up myself hopefully.

 

I don't know a great deal about 625 apart from it being Marshall's Mr. Bones "V" prior to being allocated to Salter and him scoring his only kill on the 4th July 1952 with it. His description of that combat in "Burning the Days" is almost poetic.

 

Thanks for all the help,

 

Tim

Tim will you be doing a WIP for this build? I would love to see how it pans out with the rub down Buzz Numbers and home made Signal Flags.

 

Peter

[Smithy]

8 hours ago, Blackfordhibby said:

Tim will you be doing a WIP for this build? I would love to see how it pans out with the rub down Buzz Numbers and home made Signal Flags.

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

I'll definitely set up a WIP thread once I get the ball rolling. It might get interrupted slightly as I've signed up for the RAF anniversary build but I'm looking forward to it. Couldn't agree with you more about the movie. If we're honest the best thing about the movie is the Sabre footage which is fantastic but the book is simply in another league, a spellbinding read.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[Sabrejet]

This is what I have on 50-625:

 

Delivered to the USAF on 25 July 1951 and dispatched straight to the Sacramento Air Materiel Area at McClellan AFB on 28 July for cocooning prior to shipment overseas. It arrived at the San Francisco port of embarkation on 9 August 1951 and after sea passage was received at the 601st Aero Repair Sqn, Kisarazu, Japan on 7 September.

From there it was assigned to 4th FIW on 9 October 1951 and took its first MiG just a week later. I don’t have this aircraft’s full kill tally, but this is what I do have:

 

16Oct51    1Lt DB Freeland    1 MiG destroyed
28Oct51    Capt JA Robinson    1 MiG damaged
24Nov51    Maj WW Marshall    1 MiG damaged
28Nov51    Maj WW Marshall    ½ MiG destroyed (shared with 2Lt SA Groening)
30Nov51    1Lt JW Honaker    1 La-9 destroyed
02Dec51    Capt MJ Novak    1 MiG destroyed
05Dec51    Maj WW Marshall    1 MiG destroyed
16Mar52    1Lt RL Straub        1 MiG damaged

 

It served with 4th FIW until 8 September 1953, when it was sent to 6408th Maintenance Support Gp at Kisarazu, Japan. Reassigned to 35th FIW on 19 November 1953, it was written off on 20 January 1954 after a forced landing at Johnson AB.

I can’t say for sure if Horowitz’s kill was aboard 50-625 but he had already claimed a ‘damaged’ in F-86A s/n 49-1282 on 18 April 1952.

 

I interviewed Jim Low (Ed Pell in Salter's book/film) and he was extremely critical of Horowitz/Salter: one day I may post the full interview but it's a bit - let's say - controversial.

[Blackfordhibby]

4 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

This is what I have on 50-625:

 

Delivered to the USAF on 25 July 1951 and dispatched straight to the Sacramento Air Materiel Area at McClellan AFB on 28 July for cocooning prior to shipment overseas. It arrived at the San Francisco port of embarkation on 9 August 1951 and after sea passage was received at the 601st Aero Repair Sqn, Kisarazu, Japan on 7 September.

From there it was assigned to 4th FIW on 9 October 1951 and took its first MiG just a week later. I don’t have this aircraft’s full kill tally, but this is what I do have:

 

16Oct51    1Lt DB Freeland    1 MiG destroyed
28Oct51    Capt JA Robinson    1 MiG damaged
24Nov51    Maj WW Marshall    1 MiG damaged
28Nov51    Maj WW Marshall    ½ MiG destroyed (shared with 2Lt SA Groening)
30Nov51    1Lt JW Honaker    1 La-9 destroyed
02Dec51    Capt MJ Novak    1 MiG destroyed
05Dec51    Maj WW Marshall    1 MiG destroyed
16Mar52    1Lt RL Straub        1 MiG damaged

 

It served with 4th FIW until 8 September 1953, when it was sent to 6408th Maintenance Support Gp at Kisarazu, Japan. Reassigned to 35th FIW on 19 November 1953, it was written off on 20 January 1954 after a forced landing at Johnson AB.

I can’t say for sure if Horowitz’s kill was aboard 50-625 but he had already claimed a ‘damaged’ in F-86A s/n 49-1282 on 18 April 1952.

 

I interviewed Jim Low (Ed Pell in Salter's book/film) and he was extremely critical of Horowitz/Salter: one day I may post the full interview but it's a bit - let's say - controversial.

 

What a grand  post, information like that is not exactly thick on the ground. I for one really appreciate posts such as this, i'm sure others do too.

In my mind there just aren't enough books covering the Korean Air War compared too say Vietnam. There again I may be slightly bias.

 

Such a shame that there is a wee bit of a sour taste in Lows account of Horowitz. I'm sure he has his reasons, they may well be founded.

 

Thanks for posting this information it's another wee snippet to file away for future reference.

 

Peter

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Blackfordhibby
Finish the sentence my brain had but my fingers couldn't do.

[Smithy]

2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

This is what I have on 50-625:

 

Delivered to the USAF on 25 July 1951 and dispatched straight to the Sacramento Air Materiel Area at McClellan AFB on 28 July for cocooning prior to shipment overseas. It arrived at the San Francisco port of embarkation on 9 August 1951 and after sea passage was received at the 601st Aero Repair Sqn, Kisarazu, Japan on 7 September.

From there it was assigned to 4th FIW on 9 October 1951 and took its first MiG just a week later. I don’t have this aircraft’s full kill tally, but this is what I do have:

 

16Oct51    1Lt DB Freeland    1 MiG destroyed
28Oct51    Capt JA Robinson    1 MiG damaged
24Nov51    Maj WW Marshall    1 MiG damaged
28Nov51    Maj WW Marshall    ½ MiG destroyed (shared with 2Lt SA Groening)
30Nov51    1Lt JW Honaker    1 La-9 destroyed
02Dec51    Capt MJ Novak    1 MiG destroyed
05Dec51    Maj WW Marshall    1 MiG destroyed
16Mar52    1Lt RL Straub        1 MiG damaged

 

It served with 4th FIW until 8 September 1953, when it was sent to 6408th Maintenance Support Gp at Kisarazu, Japan. Reassigned to 35th FIW on 19 November 1953, it was written off on 20 January 1954 after a forced landing at Johnson AB.

I can’t say for sure if Horowitz’s kill was aboard 50-625 but he had already claimed a ‘damaged’ in F-86A s/n 49-1282 on 18 April 1952.

 

I interviewed Jim Low (Ed Pell in Salter's book/film) and he was extremely critical of Horowitz/Salter: one day I may post the full interview but it's a bit - let's say - controversial.

 

Thanks for that SJ, that's awesome information!

 

I knew that Low was not terribly impressed with Salter and have previously read some comments by Low suggesting that Salter didn't have the killer instinct to be an ace. I'd imagine that Salter hadn't engendered great affection with his portrayal of Pell/Low in "The Hunters"! His resigning of his commission and leaving the USAF to become a full time writer also seemed to garner some dislike and foster bad feeling within the Air Force community at the time. However I've seen some other accounts where Salter was described as an excellent and highly skilled pilot, IIRC he was leader of his unit's aerobatic team in Germany.

 

One thing I discovered from reading Sherwood's social and psychological investigation of US fighter pilots in Korea, "Officers in Flight Suits" was it pretty much confirmed what was portrayed in "The Hunters", some very large personalities and an environment which cultivated some pretty large egos in the quest for scoring kills and succeeding in the fighter interceptor wings.

 

I'd be interested in seeing the interview down the line if possible SJ. As you no doubt know Low passed away last month (December 2017) so these two main fellows are sadly no longer with us.

 

Thanks once again for the information.

 

Tim

 

PS - You don't have a photo of 49-1282 do you? I can have a look through Thompson's "Mig Alley" and my other books covering the Sabres in Korea but you might be able to save me the time of trawling through them!

Edited January 31, 2018 by Smithy

[RidgeRunner]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, Smithy said:

And thank you Martin for the gracious offer to send me the font, although I think that I shall go with the Hobby Decals offerings that 72modeler and Sabrejet recommended - slightly more expensive but much easier!

 

You are welcome but that is a good plan. I didn't even know they existed!!

 

Martin

[RidgeRunner]

1 hour ago, Blackfordhibby said:

What a grand  post, information like that is not exactly thick on the ground.

 

You are talking to the  Sabre Master there, mate!

 

Martin

 

[Sabrejet]

31 minutes ago, Smithy said:

PS - You don't have a photo of 49-1282 do you? I can have a look through Thompson's "Mig Alley" and my other books covering the Sabres in Korea but you might be able to save me the time of trawling through them!

Sadly I don't. However I imagine it's depicted in one of the books. Let me know if you don't find anything and I'll take a look.

 

I dare say you have this shot of Horowitz (Salter) at left, with Jim Low (hand round Salter's shoulder) and Casey Colman at right, with "Mach Busters of the Sky" patch on his shirt.

 

 

Also another of 50-625 but from the RH side:

 

 

 

[Smithy]

I love that photo of the 335th boys SJ so I never get sick of seeing it.

 

I've seen that photo of 625 and I have another of the port side whilst being Marshall's mount as well. I've only ever seen the photo I posted of her above whilst she was Salter's mount. There's a few of him sitting in Sabres but it's impossible to know whether they're 625 as well as you can't see anything apart from the cockpit - although the ones where he is in the cockpit he's mostly wearing a B-15C flight jacket and are probably from earlier in 1952 and maybe even with 49-1282 as this was a winter/cold weather flight jacket and in the photo above of him with Slow Boat he's wearing a summer flightsuit which suggests summer, especially considering the star on the airframe for the 4th July kill.

 

I'll go through Thompson's "MiG Ally" and also his other books, along with Larry Davis's ones and see what I can turn up in relation to 49-1282.

 

Best,

 

Tim

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

Thanks for that SJ, that's awesome information!

 

I knew that Low was not terribly impressed with Salter and have previously read some comments by Low suggesting that Salter didn't have the killer instinct to be an ace. I'd imagine that Salter hadn't engendered great affection with his portrayal of Pell/Low in "The Hunters"! His resigning of his commission and leaving the USAF to become a full time writer also seemed to garner some dislike and foster bad feeling within the Air Force community at the time. However I've seen some other accounts where Salter was described as an excellent and highly skilled pilot, IIRC he was leader of his unit's aerobatic team in Germany.

 

One thing I discovered from reading Sherwood's social and psychological investigation of US fighter pilots in Korea, "Officers in Flight Suits" was it pretty much confirmed what was portrayed in "The Hunters", some very large personalities and an environment which cultivated some pretty large egos in the quest for scoring kills and succeeding in the fighter interceptor wings.

 

I'd be interested in seeing the interview down the line if possible SJ. As you no doubt know Low passed away last month (December 2017) so these two main fellows are sadly no longer with us.

 

Thanks once again for the information.

 

Tim

 

PS - You don't have a photo of 49-1282 do you? I can have a look through Thompson's "Mig Alley" and my other books covering the Sabres in Korea but you might be able to save me the time of trawling through them!

I have removed the link I originally posted as it might not have original source ID.

Mike

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by 72modeler
link removed