Spitfire PR Mk XIII 400 Sqn - "thinking aloud"

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Afternoon all!

OK - so here's my train of thought:  The only pics of any Mk XIII are the ones of the 718 NAS serving in a second line training role.  However they were used on ops by IV, 400 & 541 and 542 sqns.
So given the camo on the 718 NAS version is usually taken as the low altitude scheme of MSG over Dark Green with the (very Withnalian) PRU Mauve undersurface, is it reasonable to assume this was the scheme  the Mk XIII carried on ops?

 

BUT - would these Spits have carried any codes on Sqn service ( or even an individual  letter)?  400 Sqn used the SP letter code on its Tomahawks - so is it reasonable to assume its Spit XIII's carried similar or perhaps just the aircraft letter?

Your thoughts are welcome as ever!

 

Jonners

 

 

[gingerbob]

Hi Jon,

 

A quick check shows PR.XIIIs AD556 (ex Mk.Vb, Castle Brom built), X4766 (Mk.I), and R7308 (Mk.Va) with 400 Squadron, all going there on Christmas Day [sic] 1943.  Note that the latter two would have 'a' wings.

 

I don't know how long they were with the squadron- perhaps not long.  I note that 400 Sqn went, at least partially, to Spitfire XIs in January 1944 (from the 19th?), so it is quite possible that the XIIIs were only there to give them a first go on Spits.  My hunch is that they'd have shown only an individual letter (if that), as had been the custom with the Mustang Is.

 

I really can't speculate on camo without further probing- hopefully others will come along in the meantime.  EDIT: Here's one prior thread with food for thought.

 

bob

Edited January 27, 2018 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

I'm baaack...

 

Remembered that talk about RCAF ORBs being online, and decided to have a look-see.  (7 Dec is (hopefully) link to ORB page - Image 1352- other links will be given as necessary.  I've included some other comments of interest, besides those directly relevant.)

 

25 Nov 43 All pilots reporting to Station Sick Quarters to undergo Decompression Chamber Test.  Squadron will soon be changing over to a PRU Squadron consequently all pilots required to take this high altitude test.  Minimum height necessary for this type of work is 37,000 feet.

 

7 Dec 43 "F/L MG Brown and F/L GH Maloney both DFC pilots posted to this Unit from RCAF O/S Headquarters.  Both these pilots required to give instruction on Spitfires.

 

14 Dec [2 Navs posted from 8OTU] These officers are the first of a number of navigators who will be required at this Unit as Navigators on Mosquito aircraft when they arrive.

 

22 Dec Two Spitfires arrived today and pilots being given instructions on them.  Pilots required to undergo fifteen hours flying before being classified as qualified to do Operational Flying on "Spits".

 

26 Dec No flying.  Giving all concerned an opportunity to get over that "morning after the night before" feeling.  [2 more navs posted]  As yet we have not been supplied with any Mosquito Aircraft.

 

27 Dec F/O HE Jones attached to this Unit from 418 Squadron to instruct pilots on Mosquito Aircraft.  Two Mosquito aircraft arrived today and pilots given instruction on them at RCAF Station, Dunsfold.

 

30 Dec All aircraft flown back to base at Redhill.  Ground Crew returning by road.  Considerable general flying during afternoon from Redhill.  F/O Henderson and F/L Stephens each flew one hour in Spitfires just accepted by Squadron.

 

31 Dec Some local practice flying in Spitfires.

 

Monthly tally at bottom of page: Aircraft: Mustang- 16, Tiger Moth- 2, Mosquito- 2, Spitfire- 3.

 

Summary for early 1944:

Jan:     The greater part of the month's flying consisted of training on Spitfires and Mosquitos for the Photographic Reconnaissance work in which the squadron is now engaged.  This was carried out at 138, 139, 140 Wing Airfields.

Feb:     [Moved to Odiham- B flight 4th, rest 18/19th]  The Squadron's Mustangs were all struck off strength 25/2 and sent out to various units.  [20/2 a Mosquito crashed during failed go-around, killing the two crew and an airman on the ground.]

Mar:     15/3 All Spitfire pilots were qualified for operational duties.

 

And back to the usual pages: (bold added by me)

 

4 Jan '44 Pilots carried out practice flying in Spitfire XIII's.  F/L P Bissky was flown to RAF Station in an Auster to pick up Mosquito aircraft.  Mosquito aircraft was then flown to RCAF Station Dunsfold, where practice flying is being carried out by "B" Flight pilots and navigators.

 

5 Feb Flying Officer HE Walters in Spitfire XIII Serial No. 7308, "pranged" on landing.  Undercarriage failed to come down.  Aircraft placed in category "B".  The pilot fortunately received no injuries.

 

(9 Feb first operational sortie by Spitfire (PA886))

 

26 Feb A recapitulation of the pilots in "A" Flight shows six pilots now qualified to do operations in Spitfire Mk.XI.  In "B" Flight [Mosquito] no pilots eligible as yet.  Some time needed to train both pilot and Navigator.

[airjiml2]

This is one of the two 400 Squadron topics I've been fascinated about for years.  There really isn't much hard information outside of the above posted by gingerbob from the Squadron diary.  The Squadron history book ("On Watch To Strike, History of 400 (City of Toronto) Squadron") has the following to say on the topic:

 

"On 22 December (1943), the first two Spitfires Mk.XIII, X4766 and R7308 arrived at the squadron, and conversion to the type began immediately.  By month's end, a third Mk.XIII had been added.  Over the next six months, the squadron's inventory of Spitfire PR.XI's grew to 20, and thereafter varied between 16 and 19."

 

The third aircraft is assumed to be AD556.  Sadly, no pictures are included.  My guess is that the aircraft carried no markings as they were only used for training and not used on ops.

 

And if that isn't enough, read in the ORB the fascinating tidbits about the Typhoon FR trials in early 1943...

 

Jim

 

 

[gingerbob]

Jim, did you mean early '44 for the Typhoon?  I did see a couple of mentions of them, but figured I was wandering off track enough already!

[Dave Fleming]

The scheme is interesting, officially it should be Extra Dark Sea Grey and Extra Dark Sea Green, but photos show a fairly high contrast scheme . IIRC some docs Edgar Brooks saw had captioning that suggested a typo in the stores ref that suggested MSG may have been used rather than EDSG

[airjiml2]

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

Jim, did you mean early '44 for the Typhoon?  I did see a couple of mentions of them, but figured I was wandering off track enough already!

 

Yep, sorry.  1944 is correct.

 

Jim

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Thanks Chaps for the feedback. It seems as though I can for all intents & purposes make it up as I go along so to speak !!  By that I mean that I could if I wanted to, do the scheme with a code letter and with a serial number added it could "possibly" be from any of the squadron known to have used these marks.  Now - sky or black code? Hmmm 

 

Jonners

[Antoine]

On 27/01/2018 at 2:20 PM, gingerbob said:

I note that 400 Sqn went, at least partially, to Spitfire XIs in January 1944 (from the 19th?), so it is quite possible that the XIIIs were only there to give them a first go on Spits. 

That's indeed the case, the XIII were not flown on ops by 400 sqn, as they served only to help transition to XI.

Even 541 & 542 sqn flew little ops on them, using them mainly for training.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

53 minutes ago, Antoine said:

That's indeed the case, the XIII were not flown on ops by 400 sqn, as they served only to help transition to XI.

Even 541 & 542 sqn flew little ops on them, using them mainly for training.

So does that mean that IV Sqn flew them on ops - or were they again only for gaining "Spitsperience"?  

 

Jonners

[Antoine]

Sorry Jonners, forgot to tell about IV sqn.

On a par with 400, only for training.

Also, my sources are Ventura pub. twin booklets about Merlin PR Spitfires, in Classic Warbirds collection.