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John

RLM Paint Chip Chart

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2 minutes ago, FatFlyHalf said:

I thought advertising on this site was a no-no?

Your point being ...?

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I think there were these following charts done to LDV 521. Actual paint chips (Not in date order)

Hitchcock's original chart in 109 Gallery

Lutz Luftwaffe Painting Guide

Hitchcock et al in Monogram Painting Guide

Eagles Editions

Ullmans chart in his one of his spiral bound publications 

Hikoki 

Merrick 

There were quite a few of them out there. I may have missed one or two. Perhaps some Model Arts had actual paint chips also?

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This one came from the net some years ago. I don't know what the reference RLM colour is based on.

28629814618_1959639800_k.jpg

 

 

Perhaps someone might want to do a service to modelling and update it.

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Graham, I call it the Merrick one as that is simply the name I re-called; I keep forgetting that the original Luftwaffe Colors second author was Hitchcock. Your thinking of it that way is as good as any. And, it may be the correct one.

Joe

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Fwiw, having several RLM colour charts, namely Eagle Edtions, Hikoki & Merrick, RLM 02 is one of the few shades they pretty much agree on, being, apart from slight variations in Darkness/Lightness all very similar & to my eyes a paler version of dark Slate grey, which does not make it the same as light slate grey which is subtly different again being less olive yellow & more green, both in Hu 31 & the RAF Museum book chips. Humbrol 240 & Vallejo Model Colour 886 are both good matches to RLM 02 in the charts, to my eyes anyhow.

Steve.

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On 1 June 2018 at 9:08 PM, JPuente54 said:

Want a :worms:? Talk about matching Olive Drab!

Joe

Nope !

GHetx6M.jpg

 

Edit 5 June 2018

Original Colour Photo taken by Lieutenant John Quincy 406th Fighter Group (P-47D's)

and passed to the Roger Freeman Collection

Just do yer thang - works for me

 

Dennis

Edited by sloegin57
Original Photographers Credit ascertained and entered

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It's a completely fair point that colours do vary in service - but using OD for a comparison is simply unfair!  Nothing varied as much as that - not just from weathering and time but from new.

 

I don't know which chart was used to general those paint matches, but I'm sure that 74 was never as green as shown.  Presumably it was that source which lead to Squadron Signal "In Action" books portraying the Fw190s and Bf10s in variations on the RAF Day Fighter Scheme.

Edited by Graham Boak

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I've just ordered a tin of Humbrol 92 Iron Grey from a chap in Italy ( A bit expensive I know )  and have just discovered I have an unopened tin of RLM 02 from Precision Paints, which I don't even remember ordering ! Must have been a senior moment, as I seem to have a lot of those these days ! Anyway, both those paints match pretty closely the Hikoki paint chip set, so that's what I'm going with.  :cheers: 

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On 6/2/2018 at 7:46 AM, pat d said:

I think there were these following charts done to LDV 521. Actual paint chips (Not in date order)

Hitchcock's original chart in 109 Gallery

Lutz Luftwaffe Painting Guide

Hitchcock et al in Monogram Painting Guide

Eagles Editions

Ullmans chart in his one of his spiral bound publications 

Hikoki 

Merrick 

There were quite a few of them out there. I may have missed one or two. Perhaps some Model Arts had actual paint chips also?

Hi Pat,

 

As Graham Boak mentioned, Kookaburra also produced a set of paint chips in their Luftwaffe Modeller's Guide which was supplement to their series of Luftwaffe colours. I think it would have come out just before the Monogram publication -

 

https://www.amazon.com/Modellers-Luftwaffe-Painting-Supplement-Camouflage/dp/B004X234K4

 

Karl Reiss had a paint chart in the publication Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft  in WW2 and this would have been the earliest chart but it's printed not paint chips.

 

Regards

 

Michael

Edited by Michael louey

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The Kookaburra one was also printed, if with exceptional care.  Geoff Pentland does write in the book about the problems (and hence cost!) involved.

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 4:42 AM, stevehnz said:

Fwiw, having several RLM colour charts, namely Eagle Edtions, Hikoki & Merrick, RLM 02 is one of the few shades they pretty much agree on, being, apart from slight variations in Darkness/Lightness all very similar & to my eyes a paler version of dark Slate grey, which does not make it the same as light slate grey which is subtly different again being less olive yellow & more green, both in Hu 31 & the RAF Museum book chips. Humbrol 240 & Vallejo Model Colour 886 are both good matches to RLM 02 in the charts, to my eyes anyhow.

Steve.

Michael Ullman gives RAL 7003 as the contemporary equivalent of RLM 02. 7003 is in the current RAL colour collection:

 

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/RAL_colourchart.asp

 

J

 

 

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Starfighter said:

Probably opening a can of worms here, but how accurate do you modellers think the Hikoki colours are ?  I bought a set of Colourcoats Luftwaffe colours, but they look very different, especially RLM 02 Grau. I was lead to  believe that the Colourcoats were quite accurate, but all the other chips of Grau 02 that I've seen look more like the old Humbrol 92 ( Iron grey ) I am thinking of buying this set, but thought I'd seek out your opinions first.   :unsure:

 

The ACLW12 you got from us should be a yellowish / greenish grey like this:

ACLW12jpg_1024x1024.jpg?v=1483889244

 

If it isn't, please email us and we'll investigate if there has been an error somewhere on our part. You should be able to rely on us to be accurate. In the case of Luftwaffe paints it's more a question of "against what", and as Joe rightly said, our WW2 Luftwaffe paints are matched to Merrick & Kiroff's chips who used the "find the original formulations, ingredients and equipment and make it fresh" methodology rather than looking at relics over half a century old and stored in less-than-optimal environments.

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8 hours ago, John said:

Michael Ullman gives RAL 7003 as the contemporary equivalent of RLM 02. 7003 is in the current RAL colour collection:

 

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/RAL_colourchart.asp

 

J

 

 

Thanks John, pretty much as I see most of the charts too, as well as Jamie's colour chip below. On the charts I have, there wasn't one that I wouldn't have happily used, more than I could say for some of the other colours which I felt were open to confusion. :unsure:

Steve.

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One last item which may be of interest; the cost of producing the actual color chip charts. Tom Hitchcock related to me that the color chart in "109 gallery" was produced by  (IIRC) the Munsell corp. using an original LDV 521 sourced (again IIRC  we are going back 45 years here...) from the German Fighter Pilots Association. cost almost as much to print as the book itself. Heaven knows what the Merrick & Kiroff charts or the Eagles Charts cost to produce!

I have  some Sovereign RLM late war colors for my BV-155 headed this way, it is truly wonderful to be able access to such colours without having to mix them myself as I had to do 45 years ago....Modeling life is good!

 

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14 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The Kookaburra one was also printed, if with exceptional care.  Geoff Pentland does write in the book about the problems (and hence cost!) involved.

The notes on the chart in the  Luftwaffe Modeller's Guide says that 30 different mixes and applications were required, so that means they are paint chips, not printed.

 

On 4/6/2018 at 01:07, Michael louey said:

Karl Reiss had a paint chart in the publication Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft  in WW2 and this would have been the earliest chart but it's printed not paint chips.

The Reiss books are  fascinating for a snapshot of what known or thought in the early 60's, but as for colour information, everything is 70/71 uppers,  though fighters have some grey mottle on the sides...

for an idea of the what was known on Luftwaffe camo then,  check the profiles in the Aircraft in Profile monographs

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Aircraft-Profiles/Germany/World-War-Two

For any 109 buffs the one on the Bf109 G/K is erm, interesting. 

 

the slightly later Aircam books are a little better

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Osprey-Aircam-Aviation-Series

 

for those who are curious to see the development of understanding of Luftwaffe schemes.

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Everybody knew Stukas were overall dark green on top at least up until the release of the 2nd generation Airfix kit in the late 1970s.

I think the first time I saw anything published saying that they were in fact 70/71 was in Neil Robinson's notes that accompanied the Battle of Britain series in Scale Models in 1979. 

John 

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10 minutes ago, John said:

Everybody knew Stukas were overall dark green on top

I have an old Aircam book that says so 😋

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On 6/7/2018 at 9:53 PM, John said:

Everybody knew Stukas were overall dark green on top at least up until the release of the 2nd generation Airfix kit in the late 1970s.

I think the first time I saw anything published saying that they were in fact 70/71 was in Neil Robinson's notes that accompanied the Battle of Britain series in Scale Models in 1979. 

John 

 

23 hours ago, Ratch said:

I have an old Aircam book that says so 😋

Ironically this is one of these situations where the old beliefs were closer to the truth than many now would care to admit.

 

Despite what most modellers now think is correct, an overall RLM70/71 scheme does look like an overall uniform colour under some lighting and even from many angles in good light.

 

Due to absurd mental gymnastics by people who struggle with logic, since learning that Stukas were infact two shades on top in a splinter pattern, folk seem compelled to grossly exaggerate the contrast to make an obvious feature of it to the point where "modern" high contrast pseudo RLM70/71 schemes are significantly less characteristic of the real thing than the 1960s idea of just painting it one dark green - because in pretty much all B&W photos the demarkation is barely detectable and even on surviving colour inages and cine film it's very hard to make out.

 

Despite most colour chips now showing RLM70 and 71 to be equally dark and with a slightly different hue, it's seemingly impossible to bludgeon the high contrast fancies out of modellers.

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That's right Jamie, how often do we see totally unsuitable colours being used for RLM70/71 (I know, I've done it myself in the past) :doh:

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There are however many b&w photos showing considerable contrast between 70 and 71.   Those showing little contrast are usually either photos showing very little contrast on anything, or prewar photos showing fresh and slightly glossy paints.  Decent quality photos do show a contrast, and this is increased as 71 appears to fade more with age.

 

I would agree that there are models showing a large contrast on otherwise immaculate paint schemes, but this shouldn't be used as an argument that such never existed.

  

Beyond that, I am sure that the evidence for 70\71 was published well in advance of 1979, though there was some kind of rearguard action arguing for repaints on the Russian front.

 

PS. An example is Kookaburra vol.1 1973. I don't believe this this made any claim to being first.  Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich 1970 had artwork showing both splinter and single colour schemes, but these were reprints of earlier artwork in RAF Flying Review.

Edited by Graham Boak

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They are all interesting points . . . But what about "Scale colour " ?   🙂    :worms: 

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Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies says ...You should be able to rely on us to be accurate. In the case of Luftwaffe paints it's more a question of "against what", and as Joe rightly said, our WW2 Luftwaffe paints are matched to Merrick & Kiroff's chips who used the "find the original formulations, ingredients and equipment and make it fresh" methodology rather than looking at relics over half a century old and stored in less-than-optimal environments.

That is EXCELLENT NEWS. I had asked some time ago but never got a reply. From copious testing I had established that Humbrols recent Luft range, 02 was very close indeed to Merrick, Phoenix Precision Paints had the only nearest matches to his 70 and 71, all other makes tested were near at best, some though very wide of the mark. I think I painted out my WEM 70 71 65 and 02 but need to check.

 

I know a friend who asked which enamel range for Luftwaffe, now I can tell him.

 

No model paint for RLM I tested had got rlm65 as per Merrick, they all feature the hint of green as per Eagle chart. Just to get my hands on RLM65 as per Merrick 1938 chart will be FANTASTIC.

 

Which of the Merrick charts are they matched to ? I model early war period so use the Vol 1 book chart Ausgabe 1938 and Vol ll book Sonderdruck aus L.Dv. 521/1 and I see 70 71 65 and 02 also feature on the 1941 Tafel 5 chart as well, RLM65 on the 1938 chart is a tad less 'vibrant' but all are lacking the green nature of all model paints attempt at 65. Undersurfaces I read were treated to a protective varnish which might have accounted for the greenish nature ? Merricks being pre varnish, and the others based on wreckage etc ? I have wreckage and rubbing through the apparent greenish blue it reveals the Merrick blue, which would have been Me109E sides for example., without the varnish. I need to find again where I read about the varnish. I also by the way have a copy of the original formulation removed from Germany after WW2. Well done Merrick for recreating it with every ingredient as opposed to others who went part way.

 

Modellers consider the Luftwaffe got it wrong, and that 70/71 should have a higher contrast. I cannot understand them, they are not observant, do not have a Luft colour chart, grab a paint range and go with it. No deep desire to replicate WW2 , some dont even look at pic of the aircraft, and allow the kit errors to exist in their model. Then will argue that paints varied anyway, to justify their lack of 'interest and observation' and maybe laziness if not also to support their faith in paint manufacturers research and their paint mixers care and attention. I am seeing Ju87B in what looks like RLM71/02  there is no excuse. I think they used Gunze Sanyo by the way.

 

Ullmann book I had upon its release, Michael was livid that the charts had been produced in high gloss, I never knew if the gloss colour in fact showed the colour correctly and matting it down would lighten it, or matting it down would then provide the colour as intended by him. I presume he had supplied the colour as satin and they managed to darken them with gloss, or was it that they matched the colour in gloss, do you see what I mean ?

 

Do we get the correction charts of 70 71 etc  free if we have the original book does anyone know ?

 

is this £7.99 chart in gloss or satin now ?

 

Merlin

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Just as an experiment I bought two of the new Humbrol Luftwaffe colours ( RLM 70 & 71 ) to see how they performed. The two colours look very close to each over according to the lids, which would indicate that they are nearer the actual shades. I shall paint out some samples to see how they lookI have read that they are quite thin, but i would use them over a base coat anyway, so we'll see what happens and I shall report back.  By the way, the Hikoki chart ( £7.99) is gloss.:cheers:

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Gloss. 😞😞 after all this time. poor Michael was v upset at the original chart being gloss. Why with this reprint is it still gloss, are they trying to give him a heart attack ?

 

One cannot judge the colours if its gloss, are we supposed to satin varnish it to get the correct colours, (beware acrylics that look like milk, they make black go grey) as its no use if gloss.

 

or yet again are we looking at the correct colour as it stands, has someone established a gloss mix to show the Luft colour, so if masked off with grey card and compared to Merrick, would it match, (assumes both colours are same).

 

Just damned confusing though, why oh why do that ?

 

All serious Luft colour chip charts are in Luft satin finish.  I am gutted.

 

Merlin

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Well, I've done a comparison between Humbrol & Colourcoats RLM colours, and after a coat of gloss varnish ( For decalling )  I would say that RLM Schwartzgrun is almost identical, or as close as makes no difference.

However, RLM 71 is quite a bit different, with the Colourcoats version showing quite a brown tint compared to the Humbrol version. In fact I'd say it is browner than it's tin lid. It's probably not the most scientific test, and perhaps we've become more used to thinking that Dunkelgrun should be more "Greener " but I just thought I'd compare the two brands as a point of interest.

One last thought : Would anyone from Sovereign Hobbies have an FS equivalent No. for RLM 71, or are they substantially different ?

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