RLM Paint Chip Chart

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

4 hours ago, Starfighter said:

Well, I've done a comparison between Humbrol & Colourcoats RLM colours, and after a coat of gloss varnish ( For decalling )  I would say that RLM Schwartzgrun is almost identical, or as close as makes no difference.

However, RLM 71 is quite a bit different, with the Colourcoats version showing quite a brown tint compared to the Humbrol version. In fact I'd say it is browner than it's tin lid. It's probably not the most scientific test, and perhaps we've become more used to thinking that Dunkelgrun should be more "Greener " but I just thought I'd compare the two brands as a point of interest.

One last thought : Would anyone from Sovereign Hobbies have an FS equivalent No. for RLM 71, or are they substantially different ?

 

There isn't an obvious FS595 match to Merrick's RLM71 to be honest - it is browner than FS34095 but greener than FS33070. Neither could be described as a match IMHO.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On 6/9/2018 at 12:33 AM, Merlin said:

 

Which of the Merrick charts are they matched to ?

 

For simplicity, we've just used the 1941 card. The differences between 1938 and 1941 samples are very slight - certainly far less than the variances that will occur on a model due to differening film thickness.

[Starfighter]

2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

There isn't an obvious FS595 match to Merrick's RLM71 to be honest - it is browner than FS34095 but greener than FS33070. Neither could be described as a match IMHO.

That's kind of what I suspected ! I have seen FS 34079 given as a match, but not sure how reliable that could be . . . It looks too light to me.. I did use Humbrol 91 and 116 on my He 111, but i think the contrast was a bit too much. I also used those colours several years ago on my painting of a side profile of a BF110, and those colours were quite a bit different to the more recent paints, and I do find Humbrol colours can be quite variable from tin to tin.

Given all that I think I'll stick with the Colourcoats paints, and get used to the " Revised " version of RLM 71 . . . At least it's matched to reputable paint charts and formulas. Thanks for the reply, Jamie, it's much appreciated. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

9 hours ago, Starfighter said:

That's kind of what I suspected ! I have seen FS 34079 given as a match, but not sure how reliable that could be . . . It looks too light to me.. I did use Humbrol 91 and 116 on my He 111, but i think the contrast was a bit too much. I also used those colours several years ago on my painting of a side profile of a BF110, and those colours were quite a bit different to the more recent paints, and I do find Humbrol colours can be quite variable from tin to tin.

Given all that I think I'll stick with the Colourcoats paints, and get used to the " Revised " version of RLM 71 . . . At least it's matched to reputable paint charts and formulas. Thanks for the reply, Jamie, it's much appreciated. 

 

Given that some manufacturers selling authentically FS matched RAF paint sets, and in which FS34079 is sold as RAF Dark Green and at that one of the better matches in those sets, its duplicity as RLM71 is suspect me thinks. That said, as I've said a lot recently, it depends who's RLM paint chart is being matched against because they're all different!

[tempestfan]

... but it would make life so much easier if 71, MAP Dk. Green an US SEA Green were all the same 😇

[Starfighter]

Hi everyone,

Well I've done my comparisons with the new Humbrol RLM 70 and 71, and also the Colourcoats RLM 70 and 71. I was surprised at the Colourcoats RLM 71 ( Dunkelgrun ) as it appears quite a bit browner in tint than other versions I've seen of this colour . . . It even looks a bit different to the tin lid, so I'm a bit puzzled about that. Maybe that IS the correct shade . . . Perhaps Jamie might have some thoughts on that ?

The two Humbrol versions are very close to each other, which I've been led to believe, as I remember reading somewhere that the two colours were indistinguishable from a distance. I'd be really interested on any thoughts you chaps might have regarding this subject.    

PS: CC is Coourcoats and Hu is Humbrol ( just in case ! )

 

[Nick Nichols]

Hu91 (instead of rlm71) and CC70, and will be almost good

Kiroff's rlm71 almost equal to ral6006

[Andre B]

Concerning RLM 79 sandgelb. Whas this the same paint that also was used on the Whermacht vehicles and tanks?

 

Cheers / André

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Andre B said:

Concerning RLM 79 sandgelb. Whas this the same paint that also was used on the Whermacht vehicles and tanks?

 

Cheers / André

No, aircraft paint is not tank paint,  German tank paint is another subject on it own.

The colours are not dissimilar, as they are doing a similar task though.

[JackG]

The only model paints I've seen mentioned that could be used for both Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht is the dark grey, ie.  RLM 66 Schwarz Grau is interchangeable with RAL 7021 Dunkelgrau and vise versa.

 

regards,

Jack

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Starfighter said:

Well, I've done a comparison between Humbrol & Colourcoats RLM colours, and after a coat of gloss varnish ( For decalling )  I would say that RLM Schwartzgrun is almost identical, or as close as makes no difference.

However, RLM 71 is quite a bit different, with the Colourcoats version showing quite a brown tint compared to the Humbrol version. In fact I'd say it is browner than it's tin lid. It's probably not the most scientific test, and perhaps we've become more used to thinking that Dunkelgrun should be more "Greener " but I just thought I'd compare the two brands as a point of interest.

One last thought : Would anyone from Sovereign Hobbies have an FS equivalent No. for RLM 71, or are they substantially different ?

As Stew can attest to, we use a few ml from each batch to spray the tinlids for that batch, but having said that it's labour intensive and of limited value-adding so it's done as fast as possible in a single coat on unprimed metal so the lids can vary in film thickness a bit.

 

This was how our RLM70 and 71 turned out by airbrush on my Ju87 a year or two ago

[Graham Boak]

I don't believe that the German standard late-war vehicle colour (Dunkelgelb) was particularly close to either variety of RLM 79.  The earlier 79 is yellow rather than the ochre colour of the Army, the later one hazelnut.  Excuse imprecise colour terminology, but I think the point is made about the key differences.  Apparently the Germans did have a number of other yellowish shades, notably for use by the Afrika Korps, and these may be nearer to the RLM shades, but I can't say.  Asking Jamie to address the Colourcoats German military catalogue may be a bit pushy at the moment, but perhaps he could add a little something here?

 

PS: going by the colour reproduction on my monitor, and considering the difference between fresh paint on a chip and the appearance on an aircraft in b&w photos, I prefer the combination of CC70 and Humbrol 116 - I have seen it said that 71 was close (eyeball close, I presume) to RAF Dark Green - with a combination of CC70/71 for a more weathered appearance.  But that's obviously including a fair amount of subjective interpretation, not a claim to ideal matching of paint samples.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Asking Jamie to address the Colourcoats German military catalogue may be a bit pushy at the moment, but perhaps he could add a little something here?

 

Armour is not an area I can claim anything more than an embryonic knowledge of, and even that would be egotistical and exaggerating the truth! 

[sapperastro]

Be careful thinking of Humbrol colours. I have recenty painted out 5 vintages of 116, dating from the 70's to the current paper label tin. The progression from a blueish tint in the late 70's, to a an olive colour from today are quite amazing. I paint out swatches of each and every tin of model paint as I buy them, from every manufacturer, and they are usually all different to differing degrees.

 

I would also suggest real life mass manufactured paints, would show similar differences

[Merlin]

Puzzled,

Jamies stuka with CC 70 and 71 sees virtually no contrast, so much so that a b/w pic would show one colour., in fact I just copy pasted it into photoshop and went mode>greyscale and behold I have one shade of grey , you would think its one colour. doing that to my Merrick chart photos doesnt see that.

Starfighters painting out of the same two colours shows a great contrast,  more than Merricks 70/71 .

 

here is a correctly photographed dSLR adobeRGB1998 Merrick 70 and 71 in daylight midday , (I took some time to perfect the shots), incident light readings, chart on door, facing a large area of darkness, so no reflections etc etc. checking light levels before and after manual exposure etc. (I know my photography !) and on it are Starfighter copy pasted from photo and Jamies. also my photo con to greyscale.

 

why the big difference between Starfighter and jamies and the zero contrast in the latter and greater contrast in Starfighters ?

 

 

Any comparing a new range of paints to previous attempts is not a way to assess right or wrong, comparison to Kiroff Merrick is the only way, with paints carefully sprayed out until dense enough, then compared with grey card somewhere about 18% grey is best (average light reflectance average scene) into which at least a 1inch square hole is cut per colour.

too light a grey and colours are darkened to our senses, alternatively too dark and they are lightened, but one is comparing just the two colours anyway so no big deal but it helps.

Canford paper does a decent grey (The Range or Hobbycraft or any art shop). Daylight midday in shade also good and not a blue sky as in fact that will add blue to the colour !

Northlight is good as any good artist studio is north facing, as they say.

 

get hold of Phoenix Precision paints rlm70 and 71 for a best match found, excepting Sovereign which I must now buy and test. What you see above is what they should be like., depending on ones monitor though. Anyone commenting on the colours needs Merricks book.

 

Merlin

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Merlin

[dogsbody]

To my old eye, most B&W photos of Luftwaffe 70/71 camoed aircraft show little contrast between the greens. This all seems a bit much, arguing over who makes the most accurate scale paint. Are you going to show your completed kit to the world for comparison? If at a modelling contest, will the kit be judged on the accuracy of the colours used? Will you lose points because you used Brand X paint for the underside colour, instead of Brand W?

 

It sometimes seems there's too much worry over shades of paint.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

Chris

[Starfighter]

12 hours ago, Merlin said:

Puzzled,

Jamies stuka with CC 70 and 71 sees virtually no contrast, so much so that a b/w pic would show one colour., in fact I just copy pasted it into photoshop and went mode>greyscale and behold I have one shade of grey , you would think its one colour. doing that to my Merrick chart photos doesnt see that.

Starfighters painting out of the same two colours shows a great contrast,  more than Merricks 70/71 .

 

here is a correctly photographed dSLR adobeRGB1998 Merrick 70 and 71 in daylight midday , (I took some time to perfect the shots), incident light readings, chart on door, facing a large area of darkness, so no reflections etc etc. checking light levels before and after manual exposure etc. (I know my photography !) and on it are Starfighter copy pasted from photo and Jamies. also my photo con to greyscale.

 

why the big difference between Starfighter and jamies and the zero contrast in the latter and greater contrast in Starfighters ?

 

 

Any comparing a new range of paints to previous attempts is not a way to assess right or wrong, comparison to Kiroff Merrick is the only way, with paints carefully sprayed out until dense enough, then compared with grey card somewhere about 18% grey is best (average light reflectance average scene) into which at least a 1inch square hole is cut per colour.

too light a grey and colours are darkened to our senses, alternatively too dark and they are lightened, but one is comparing just the two colours anyway so no big deal but it helps.

Canford paper does a decent grey (The Range or Hobbycraft or any art shop). Daylight midday in shade also good and not a blue sky as in fact that will add blue to the colour !

Northlight is good as any good artist studio is north facing, as they say.

 

get hold of Phoenix Precision paints rlm70 and 71 for a best match found, excepting Sovereign which I must now buy and test. What you see above is what they should be like., depending on ones monitor though. Anyone commenting on the colours needs Merricks book.

 

Merlin

 

That\s very interesting, Merlin. As you say, the colours are very close together, with very low contrast, which is how they appear on period photos. I do have a tin of Phoenix Precision paints RLM 02, which I'm using on my 1/48 Dornier Do 17 at the moment, so I might take your advice and get their RLM 70 and 71. I have used them before on my Hurricane model, and found they brush out really nicely.

I also agree with your comments on paint variability : I have a tin of Humbrol Slate Grey ( 31 ) which is completely wrong, but would be fine for an aircraft with Mid Stone !   😄

 

[sapperastro]

I have seen with my own eyes how variable military paints can be, even from the same factories. And while the Third Reich may have had expert paint fuhrers running around measuring each and every batch for consistency, and the slave labour workers may have been sufficiently whipped into ensuring that each batch was mixed to perfection of these standards with bombs possibly raining down on their factories, I have my doubts

 

By all means, try to keep things authentic, that is basically the mission of people like Jamie who strive to do just that. And I try to keep things in the ballpark. But bear in mind that this just doesn't happen in the real world where normal people, with normal jobs at the paint factory only give a toss to a certain degree. The inspector might have a headache that day, the squadron leader might not give a poo-poo that the can of paint opened is not an exact match, the list of variables goes on from the factory floor right to application, and then we have weathering on top of that...and this is only a nation at peace with no issues to speak of.

 

Really, I haven't even gone back to the suppliers of the ingredients! Variables on variables. Add in a nation at war where all sorts of new variables arise, and you have the perfect storm.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Merlin]

Hi,

I have 'taken at the time' wreckage where 70 and 71 match the Merrick chart. I have collected over 40 yrs colour photos of Luft BoB aircraft, I have thousands of b/w pics, I am always studying the latest and looking at the contrast in the greens 70 and 71, if I see one that has a marked contrast I remember it as its a rare occurrence. Thus something like 90+ % are featuring my wreckage, or Merricks or Ullmans or Kookaburas or Monograms 70/71 (and I personally am taking Merrick as the methods used cannot be bettered, as original formulation was followed even to the lesser ingredients). Also its the last produced charts so may be more easy to get hold of.  I also have the original formulation document.

 

On the other hand over the years at shows etc, its the reciprocal, I mentally note any models that match the observations and data above ! Most modellers just grab a range they normally work with, have no Luft charts, and trust the paint makers have done their research or dont care much, odd though after the effort that goes into the build.

 

I personally cannot excuse the differences between makes of modelling paint excusing them for lack of manufacture matching effort with 'well they all varied in the field', as I am not seeing the variation in the modelling paints reflected in the 40yrs of photo data that I have. If a paint maker gets red arrows red wrong, as references are available , they should go the extra mile and get it to match then let the modeller alter it for his or her own taste if he/she thinks its too yellowy a red.

 

'Well they all varied in the field' I have heard again and again when a modeler explains the colours used on their model and reveals no chart was even looked at.

 

I have waited a lifetime to see 70 71 65 02 looking like those on the charts. I have a model made by a long gone friend who matched 70 and 71 to Luft charts and wow what a difference, its as if I was back in WW2. Then there are those that say 'the germans got the colours wrong, should be higher contrast', too justify the paint they used.

 

I personally will paint with the contrast I see in almost all my pics and wreckage.

 

Still puzzled that jamies stuka has zero contrast and Starfighters paint out of same colours has too much.

 

Merlin

[FalkeEins]

On 6/3/2018 at 12:39 PM, Graham Boak said:

I don't know which chart was used to general those paint matches, but I'm sure that 74 was never as green as shown.  Presumably it was that source which lead to Squadron Signal "In Action" books portraying the Fw190s and Bf10s in variations on the RAF Day Fighter Scheme.

 

 '74' could be very 'green'  at least  on the Fw 190. Here a 190 horizontal stabiliser dug up in Normandy a few years ago  - according to the research a JG 1 machine lost in August 1944. Here the Graugrün variation of '74' appears overwhelmingly 'green' and as applied to the Fw 190 differs from the typical '74' seen on the 109 which has a distinctive 'grey-blue' cast.

The lighter grey colour obviously corresponds to the typical '75', although very thinly sprayed and revealing an undercoat of  RLM 02 which appears to have given the part a tint of what is described as 'violet' - the classic Grauviolett perhaps

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

It isn't as "overwhelmingly" green as the colour that appeared in the Squadron Signal books, on Bf109s as well as Fw190s.  Some years ago on an internet forum, Ken Merrick described the green tinge in 74 as something only seen in very close study of fresh paint (my apologies for any possible misrepresentation, but that is paraphrased from memory - the description was memorable, if not the precise words).  I presume that your comment is not based on this single sample, as the date of August 1944 pushes the build date towards the the introduction of the 80s greens and the removal of 74 as an option.  Though to be absolutely honest, some of the photos of Fw190s taken in 1945 still show a dark grey rather than any distinct green.

[sapperastro]

I would imagine that paints during the early war would be more precise than those used as the war progressed. There was a lot more time and ability to 'get things right'. Later on I daresay things would gotten tardier as everything went to hell for Germany.

[Ratch]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 4:23 PM, Merlin said:

I have 'taken at the time' wreckage

What do you mean by wreckage, what has it to do with colour matching?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I might be having a sensitive day, but I hope we / our brand don't come across as a bit superfluous. We make a high quality paint. The Luftwaffe ones happen to be matched to Merrick & Kiroff's chips.

 

It can and does look slightly different each time it is applied depending on how thick and what modelling techniques are used. On Saturday I masked the canopy of this Revell/Monogram He-111 which I'm building as 1H+FT which crashed into Aberdeen's brand new icerink on 12th July 1940. I have very little to go on other than that it was III Gruppe KG.26 and thus the F and spinners were yellow. Otherwise, I've assumed it was a bog standard 70/71/65 scheme. I have photographs of the wreckage and the underside was definitely a light colour with the usual individual letters (i.e. F) painted in black beside the cross.

 

As I had to spray the canopy frames RLM66 I shot the whole model with it roughly as a sort-of "black" base, which I did on Saturday. I'm showing these just to illustrate how the paint was applied; that is to say, to show how thinly it is applied and thus it is not a 3-Dimensional collection of Merrick chips, but rather it is painted in Merrick-matched paint in an attempt to capture the character of the Merrick colours:

 

Through chance / thinning rations / film thickness applied / whatever, the RLM70 came out somewhat less glossy than the RLM71 did, and thus it looked a bit odd at first:

 

Once glossed after day-job work today with gloss enamel though, the RLM70 looks a bit darker and less perhaps less bluish:

 

The RLM65 looks slightly greener outdoors, but not as green as some non-Merrick Luftwaffe chips:

 

Now this is the important bit. All 3 of these are painted in Merrick-matched Colourcoats, and they're all different.

The Stuka is the one I built on this forum and posted a few days ago on the Dunkirk movie He111 thread. It was sprayed as solid colours in fairly thick coats onto unprimed plastic. Apologies, it's a bit dusty.

The Bf109 was built by @Duncan_B a while ago on a build thread. IIRC it was preshaded in the common way of light primer with dark preshading added, then light colour coats on top.

The He111 is (I hope obviously?) the one above, pseudo black-based.

 

 

 

It may sound a bit strange coming from me - but I think we might be going a bit OTT here with respect to precise matching. You'll have to take my word for it that at 100microns wet film thickness once dried our paint does match the Merrick chips, but nobody applies exactly 100 microns to a model precisely and if you did it would look a bit lifeless and toy-like as does my Stuka there. I agree one should be able to expect a manufacturer to supply what they claim they're supplying, and in Luftwaffe-specific terms it may be useful to know who's chips they've referenced, but when it comes to actual use on the model all bets are off really - there are too many variables in application - both on the model and on the full size originals.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies
corrections

[Chuck1945]

You can really see the lighting on the Stuka wing where the different wing angles combined with sunlight makes the inboard downward sloping part look light green and the outboard dihedral part look dark green