Spitfire Vc codes-serials

[72modeler]

Hello, all!

 

I am in the planning stages of doing a 1/72 Spitfire MK Vc with the 4-cannon fit in the mid-stone/dk earth/azure blue scheme. I want to do one with the Vokes filter and preferably from either No. 2 or 249 squadrons. I have found some color profiles, you know how that goes, but no photos for confirmation. I have  that very famous photo of four No. 2 Sq Vc's in echelon formation, but the photo is from the front and above,  so no serials or codes are visible. Can anybody out there help me? I have a ton of written/photo references, but nothing that really helps me. (Edgar, if you're up there and listening, send me a sign, sir- you are missed!)

Mike

 

No, I don't know which kit I will use- either a Sword Vc or a conversion from one of the other recent  kits that are accurate and could serve as the basis for making a nice Vc.

Edited January 15, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Graham Boak]

I think that the Sword Mk.Vc is the only accurate 1/72 kit (the span is a bit short) providing the basis for a nice Mk.Vc.  There are other ways of creating one with a bit of work, and there has been a recent thread on the subject.  However, as I understand it the 2 Sq SAAF aircraft were in the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth, as appropriate for operating in Italy.   Transfers are provided with the 1/72 Airfix kit, otherwise not recommended.

 

The Mk.Vc aircraft first delivered to Malta carried four cannon, on both Operations Calendar and Bowery, but these were rapidly removed from 249 Sq aircraft because the added weight outboard affected the handling.  Pictures of Denis Barnham's aircraft show the 4 cannon retained, but this was 601 Sq.  It has now been determined that the aircraft with single tone upper surfaces delivered on Calender were in Dark Mediterranean Blue over Azure Blue, but others were in Temperate Sea Scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey over Sky.  Later deliveries do appear to be in the desert scheme, as were the earlier Mk.Vb before repainting, but the 4 cannon does not seem to be seen at this time.  Barnham does report seeing a Spitfire in the desert colours but with no hint as to the markings or armament.

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I think that the Sword Mk.Vc is the only accurate 1/72 kit (the span is a bit short) providing the basis for a nice Mk.Vc.  There are other ways of creating one with a bit of work, and there has been a recent thread on the subject.  However, as I understand it the 2 Sq SAAF aircraft were in the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth, as appropriate for operating in Italy.   Transfers are provided with the 1/72 Airfix kit, otherwise not recommended.

 

The Mk.Vc aircraft first delivered to Malta carried four cannon, on both Operations Calendar and Bowery, but these were rapidly removed from 249 Sq aircraft because the added weight outboard affected the handling.  Pictures of Denis Barnham's aircraft show the 4 cannon retained, but this was 601 Sq.  It has now been determined that the aircraft with single tone upper surfaces delivered on Calender were in Dark Mediterranean Blue over Azure Blue, but others were in Temperate Sea Scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey over Sky.  Later deliveries do appear to be in the desert scheme, as were the earlier Mk.Vb before repainting, but the 4 cannon does not seem to be seen at this time.  Barnham does report seeing a Spitfire in the desert colours but with no hint as to the markings or armament.

Thank you, Graham; I was afraid that what you posted was  what I was going to find out; I know the 4-cannon  fit didn't last very long, for the reason you stated, but was holding out a faint hope. I could always do a 2-cannon Vc, but it is so similar externally to a Vb  that I wanted to do a 4-cannon aircraft to avoid duplication. (So many Spit variants, so little time!)

 

There is a beautiful color 2-page illustration of a supposed 2 Sq. Vc with  four cannon in desert colors and the squadron crest on the fin, in the AIRtime Combat Legends, vol. 1, but no complete serial or photo to allow confirmation. The aircraft that is the subject of the color illustration is labeled as a Mk Vc from No. 2 Sq. SAAF, No. 7 wing, late 1943. It is shown with 4 cannon, red spinner, Vokes filter, in dark earth/mid-stone/azure blue. it is coded DB-P with the codes being white, and the aircraft letter P is shown painted over an area of fresher mid-stone, which I assume was meant to show the P was painted over a previous letter; in addition, this repainted area has obscured all but the last numeral of the serial, which is a 4. In addition, there is a white outlined red No. 2 Sq. crest that has a white springbok and lightning bolt within it.

 

From what you have stated and what I have been able to find in my written references, the squadron moved from North Africa to Sicily in 1943, exchanging their Mk V's for Mk IX's in 1944. I couldn't find any mention of what colors the Spits carried in Africa or Sicily, and in the photo of their Mk Vc's in echelon, I can't really tell from the contrast of the two upper surface colors if they are DG/DE or MS/DE. It does appear that the undersurface color wraps around the leading edge  from the root to the tip. Does any of this ring a bell? I know the color artwork is probably artistic license, with no photo to confirm its accuracy, but it sure is a pretty Spit! I'd rather not do it as a "what if," so if I can't verify this scheme, I'll have to look for another subject.

 

Thanks for taking the time to research this. I do appreciate your help.

Mike

[Graham Boak]

The 4 cannon fit is certainly right for 2 Sq, as you say, and there is considerable evidence for the use of TLS on SAAF Spitfires in Italy, but (from memory) this comes from 40 Sq rather than 2 Sq. I think I can recall other photos from the same air-to-air sortie but in b&w.  I had my SAAF sources out yesterday so I was able to find them again easily enough, but they weren't particularly helpful.  2 Sq only had Spitfires for a month n NOrth Africa after the end of the campaign and before posting to Italy in August.  They were re-fitted with 4 cannon at Malta, in November.  There are a number of photos of their Mk.IXs in dark camouflage but this is claimed to be the Day Fighter scheme - though the "Ocean Grey" looks remarkably dark!  I only found one photo of a 2 Sq Mk.Vc, but it was broken on the ground and could be almost anything - quite possibly Desert, I must admit, but not clearly so.  It only seemed to have one visible cannon.

 

I was wrong about the Airfix kit - it offers Desert camouflage for DP.R  JK***.  So I withdraw my suggestion of TLS - although confirming it for 40 Sq., so who knows for sure?  I'd like to see the photos.

 

A fair number of the Malta Mk.Vcs removed the inboard cannon, if that's different enough.  Obviously they need the broad fairing on the wing - also an additional bump inboard of the ailerons.  Hardly different enough from a Mk.Vb, however.

[gingerbob]

Don't these have four cannon?  It is hard to see, but I think the end of the outer cannon is just visible as a dark spot.  (image 7 if link doesn't take you direct)

[72modeler]

Graham,

 

I spent a few hours last night searching the 'net for photos, using just about every combination of words I could think of. I was able to find a couple of interesting photos, One really good one of Mk Vc DB-R, JK815 from 2 Sq. SAAF. Looks to have the 4-cannon fit, and what appears to me to be in  DE/MS/azure blue, but I can't say for sure. Note the 7 Wing crest on the fin as well as the bombload on the centerline. Talk about a different-looking Spit! Many of the Mk V's, VIII's, and IX's used by the RAF and USAAF in Italy look to have remained in their desert scheme colors, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed on JK815! What do you think? I do value your opinion and knowledge on this subject. I will try to find the original sites in which I found the photos; if so, I will add them to this post. The 3rd link is a cpf of JK815 with 2 cannon, but clearly in the other photos she carried the 4 cannon for a time. The 3-ship formation pictured in the last link is also interesting, with two JK- and one JL- machine.

Mike

 

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/MkVc-Trop-SAAF-2Sqn-DB/images/Spitfire-MkVcTrop-SAAF-2Sq-DB-R-Italy-1943-01.jpg 

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/uk/raf/spitfire5/Spitfire_Mk_VC_DB-R_of_No_2_Squadron_SAAF_Italy.jpg

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/ff/db/92ffdbd140bf194ce09313a96a6c006e.jpg

 

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2760&start=45

[Graham Boak]

Looks good to me.

[72modeler]

Guess what? I just now stumbled upon a video that starts with the famous echelon formation of No. 2 Sq. Mk Vc's and then shows great footage of them in formation. I have never seen this one before, but if it has been posted before, I can remove it. This one's for you, Graham!

Mike

 

Looks like the still photographer took his shot at the right moment, judging from the way they were bouncing around. Video via You Tube.

 

 

[Seahawk]

Personally I can't make out the 3 digits of DB-R's serial in any of the photos posted here or in the linked thread.  The lovely clear starboard side view shows the numbers obliterated by the splodge of fresh paint where, apparently, the aircraft has been recoded.  So for me the jury is still out.  I'm also a little sceptical about the apparent yellow wing leading edges shown in the artwork.

 

No such doubt over the photo of 3 aircraft produced by Kremlin in the link: 

 

JK674 DB-S.  Name under windscreen, serial in stencilled style, aircraft has been recoded with letter "N" in a fatter style than the squadron codes..

JL115 DB-V 

 

NB DB-R is the only one with the crest on the rudder,

 

[gingerbob]

One observation- I'd been thinking that these had bombs under the wings, but in the video at least it is a single fuselage rack.

[Graham Boak]

Apart from the ones on Malta, and some UK trials (which maybe didn't even get onto the aircraft), the Mk.V didn't have underwing bombs.

[gingerbob]

Hmm, wonder what I was thinking?  That's going to cost me some boffin credibility points!

 

I KNOW, it must have been Photoshopped.

[Graham Boak]

There's nothing as valuable as a dogmatic statement for bringing into the light an otherwise unknown exception - I was half-expecting you to produce a photo of 3-bomb Mk.Vs from up your sleeve!  Maybe someone will yet.

[gingerbob]

Not three, but I confess I did briefly look for two.  (I may yet be back...)

 

Incidentally, just the other day I saved a photo of two Greek Spit XVI(RV) carrying drop tanks on each wing bomb carrier!

[Graham Boak]

betcha they were IXs... generally speaking, the UK didn't pass on Mk.XVIs because there'd be no money from spares for RR, and why give the competition an intro into your markets?  I think however that there may have been exceptions - perhaps the Italians and hence the Israelis and hence the Burmese?  I know the examples ferried out to Burma were described at the time as Mk.XVIs but I'd have to check in Spitfire International to see if that was correct.

[72modeler]

11 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Personally I can't make out the 3 digits of DB-R's serial in any of the photos posted here or in the linked thread.  The lovely clear starboard side view shows the numbers obliterated by the splodge of fresh paint where, apparently, the aircraft has been recoded.  So for me the jury is still out.  I'm also a little sceptical about the apparent yellow wing leading edges shown in the artwork.

 

No such doubt over the photo of 3 aircraft produced by Kremlin in the link: 

 

JK674 DB-S.  Name under windscreen, serial in stencilled style, aircraft has been recoded with letter "N" in a fatter style than the squadron codes..

JL115 DB-V 

 

NB DB-R is the only one with the crest on the rudder,

 

Regarding the presence of the yellow wing leading edge ID bands; None of the photos I have found so far of 2 Sq. Vc's show them. In the film clip I posted above, it looks to me that the azure blue under the wings has been wrapped around the upper leading edges, and I found a colorized still that shows this as being the same color as the undersides. If this is indeed correct, then maybe what the profile artist interpreted as a yellow ID stripe was this band of undersurface color that overlapped the leading edges- perhaps this was done to overpaint the yellow ID bands so as to avoid confusing the SAAF aircraft with Luftwaffe/Italian fighters that had yellow theater markings? The overlapped bands are much too uniform and straight-edged to be erosion of the camouflage paint from the leading edges.

 

On another note- Graham: I found another b&w photo of a 2 Sq. Vc with 4 cannon, Vokes filter, and the 2 Sq. crest on the rudder. Codes are DB-H, with the H higher than the Sq. codes and slightly larger. Serial is hard to make out, but under magnification I can read JL17x. Spinner is red and it looks to be in dark earth/midstone/azure blue. Any clue as to the last digit?  I know I also  saw a photo of DB-R from the LH side in flight with the JK815 serial on it, and I thought I had saved it, but now can't find it. Seems all of the photos of DB-R are from the RH side and only show JK- with the numbers being painted over with what looks to be fresh paint- guessing the original code letter was overpainted and changed to 'R' (Why do I always seem to fall in love with an airplane whose markings can't be confirmed with a photo or which there are no decals for? It's a sickness, I tell ya'!) Guess I can just put the JK- of the serial on and if the -815 can be confirmed, I can always add it later.

Mike 

[Seahawk]

Yes, from about 2:57 to 3:10 of the Pathe clip you linked to an aircraft is in shot which has a very neatly painted light coloured strip along the leading edge of the wing.  It's reminiscent of the white leading edges worn by Australian Spitfires in the SWPA.  It extends to the wingroot but the portion outboard of the cannons looks as if it has been repainted.  It is definitely not a text-book application of the European-style yellow leading edge stripe.  Interesting: can anyone else shed more light?

[Graham Boak]

All the JL170 to JL176 (no later 17x) went to the Mediterranean, but records are limited 170 and 174 were lost pretty early on, the rest survived to 1945 or later.

 

The different treatment of the leading edge is interesting, but you wouldn't expect to see yellow outboard on a desert-camouflaged aircraft.  I noticed that one of the six (B?) was in darker colours, presumably Temperate Land.

[72modeler]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

All the JL170 to JL176 (no later 17x) went to the Mediterranean, but records are limited 170 and 174 were lost pretty early on, the rest survived to 1945 or later.

 

The different treatment of the leading edge is interesting, but you wouldn't expect to see yellow outboard on a desert-camouflaged aircraft.  I noticed that one of the six (B?) was in darker colours, presumably Temperate Land.

Very interesting, Graham. I'm wondering if there is a possibility that the two-page color illustration of a 2 Sq. Vc in the AIRTime Legends, vol. 1 that has the squadron crest on the rudder and only the last number of the serial visible, which is a 4, with the remainder being overpainted, could maybe be JL174? I reckon I've flogged this poor old steed enough, but their Vc's are soooo pretty!

Mike

[Graham Boak]

JL174 was category 3 on ops in September 1943.  Which would be very early for 2 Sq. but not impossible?  It was powered by a Merlin 46, which is the high altitude version of the more common Merlin 45 in a Mk.V, so ideally would not be best employed in a low-level role, but by then the Mk.IXs were around so perhaps it just didn't matter any more.

 

You can rule out JL172 also: it was converted to an LF Mk.IX before being sent out to the Med.  Rather unusual?

[Giorgio N]

A bit late to the party here...

IMHO the leading edge is  not yellow, as Seahawk said the pattern does not follow the standard as used by RAF fighters in the UK. It's a very interesting feature though, I don't think it was applied to hide an existing yellow leading edge as this was not a recognition feature used by either Italian or German aircrafts. I wonder if it was a local addition to make the airplane less visible from the target during a dive. This was something often applied to Italian torpedo bombers in the theatre

[Giorgio N]

16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

betcha they were IXs... generally speaking, the UK didn't pass on Mk.XVIs because there'd be no money from spares for RR, and why give the competition an intro into your markets?  I think however that there may have been exceptions - perhaps the Italians and hence the Israelis and hence the Burmese?  I know the examples ferried out to Burma were described at the time as Mk.XVIs but I'd have to check in Spitfire International to see if that was correct.

 

No Spitfire XVI served in the Italian Air Force, all aircrafts were Mk.IX coming from MUs located in the country, 392 MU in Brindisi and MU 380 in Campoformido. Most aircrafts were from units previously serving in Italy, a few were from units that served elsewhere, but these had likely been assigned to the MUs for redistribution before the end of the war

[Graham Boak]

Spitfire International does have some Mk.XVIs going to Greece, but none to Burma.

 

Steven McLean's The Spitfire in SAAF Service does not list an JLxxx in 2 Sq service but does have a profile of ES141 DB.E in desert camouflage with 2 cannon only.  A photo of it would have helped.

[M20gull]

On 01/02/2018 at 09:29, Graham Boak said:

JL174 was category 3 on ops in September 1943.  Which would be very early for 2 Sq. but not impossible?  It was powered by a Merlin 46, which is the high altitude version of the more common Merlin 45 in a Mk.V, so ideally would not be best employed in a low-level role, but by then the Mk.IXs were around so perhaps it just didn't matter any more.

 

You can rule out JL172 also: it was converted to an LF Mk.IX before being sent out to the Med.  Rather unusual?

I'm still digging around SAAF record books and it is fascinating.  It's going to help with modelling but the historic research is very rewarding.  JL174 was not 2 SAAF.  Google takes a journey to the Guinea Pig club and suggests the pilot was Freeman Strickland (Obituary) who was intially admitted to SSQ, Sicily. No.2 MFH, Catania, Sicily. Then No.1 General Hospital, Tunis (10/10/43). RAF Hospital Wroughton (29/12/43) to East Grinstead.  The Museum there remarks that he crashed on take off in a Spitfire, struck by returning aircraft and suffered burns to face and arms. He was in a RAAF squadron at the time, though I have not yet identified which one.

[M20gull]

The addition of the cannon to the 2 SAAF Vc was done in Malta during Novmber 1943.  The day after their return the ORB quotes for 26 Nov 1943 "As this squadron was the first in the wing to do dive-bombing with Spitfires an aircraft was sent out today by the Photographic Unit to take photographs of the squadron whilst dive-bombing."  I wonder if this is when the photos here were taken. 2 SAAF describe the Spitfire as "most unsuitable as a dive-bomber ... and would prefer the old Kittyhawk"!

The bomb racks are put on an off when needed.  On ops it looks like they only use a single GP250lb per aircraft so presumably on the centre line.  When used as a fighter they usually carry a 30 gallon drop tank.  

 

I was wondering why they did not repaint them while they were in Malta for three weeks.

Edited January 9, 2021 by M20gull
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