1/48 Harvard

[canberra kid]

Hi all

I'm thinking of getting a 1/48 Italeri Harvard, is it an Italeri kit or a re box and is it any good? 

 

John 

[Rabbit Leader]

John, 

According to ‘Scalemates’ its a re-box of the late nineties Ocidental kit. Link - https://www.scalemates.com/kits/610138-italeri-2736-harvard-mk-ii

 

I’ve not built this kit, however have read a few reviews about it. Some built examples do look good and I’d say it’s probably the best in this scale so far. 

 

HTH.. Dave 

[canberra kid]

Thanks Dave, I want to build one of my dad's, it's a toss up between this one or the Monogram one which I'm guessing would be more applicable to an early version?

John

[Rabbit Leader]

Do you know what version / serial Harvard that your dad flew in John? AFAIK, this Italeri box is the only one available which has the sloping rear canopy, whilst the Monogram kit is based on your ‘typical’ US Texan straight angled frame canopy. This topic is a little bit of a minefield however there are many here who know there Texans / Harvard’s quite well (Not me - I’m just a enthusiast).. 

 

Anyway - I’m sure we can sort this one out and guide you down the right path. 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

[Selwyn]

9 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

Thanks Dave, I want to build one of my dad's, it's a toss up between this one or the Monogram one which I'm guessing would be more applicable to an early version?

John

What mark mo Harvard are you looking at?  If you want  one with the  IIB type canopy you have to get the Heller boxing of the same kit which has this canopy included.

 

Selwyn

[canberra kid]

Thanks Dave, it looks like I will need to sort out which ones he flew first. He was in Rhodesia in 1943/44 then he flew one in Japan post war. More home work needed I think.

 

John

[canberra kid]

6 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

What mark mo Harvard are you looking at?  If you want  one with the  IIB type canopy you have to get the Heller boxing of the same kit which has this canopy included.

 

Selwyn

Is that 1/48 too Selwyn? 

John

[Selwyn]

4 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

Is that 1/48 too Selwyn? 

John

John 

I am only referring to the 1/48 kit, don't know about 1/72.  the Heller 1/48 is the occidental kit but has the longer canopy supplied,  my Italieri pop of the same kit  in the stash only has the shorter canopy. The original Occidental kit i have not seen it, may have both canopies in it?

 

Scroll down to see canopy images;

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69085-na-harvard-ii/

 

Selwyn

Edited January 23, 2018 by Selwyn

[Max Headroom]

Here is an old thread on this very website

 

 

The rear of the canopy is the big difference. As far as I know you can’t make a fixed rear canopy version out of the box.

 

Trevor

 

[Truro Model Builder]

A friend of mine made the present Italeri boxing as his first ever model and it seemed to go together very well.

 

With regard to the canopy, take a look at the page for it on the Italeri site:

 

http://italeri.com/scheda.asp?idProdotto=2385

 

You can have a closer look at the canopies.

 

[Troy Smith]

46 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

it's a toss up between this one or the Monogram one which I'm guessing would be more applicable to an early version?

not particularly,  the Monogram(or Revell) is older,  but is from the golden era of Monogram.

 

I'm in no way a Texan/Harvard expert,  and AFAIK the Mono kit is AT-6G OOB.

 

@Max Headroom  has dug up a good thread which explains much IIRC.

 

For a  Harvard I ,   there is no kit,  and the conversion has faults.  

 

 

30 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

He was in Rhodesia in 1943/44 then he flew one in Japan post war. More home work needed I think.

I'll put up a notification to @galgos  as his father was also in Rhodesia and trained there.

 

You will really need a serial to know the details...

 

but here's a pic which maybe  of interest in general

Harvards in Rhodesia by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Harvard IIA's stationed at Cranbone, near Salisbury, Rhodisia in January 1943.

No. 20 Service Flying Training School did advanced pilot instruction here for many Allied pilots during the war.

 

hope of  some small help

T

 

PS  PB inmage (working with embed fix)  the above have the US Texan canopy,   the left one.

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

Take a look at this YouTube review of said Italeri box.

 

 

To my fading eye, the ‘correct’ rear canopy is included. 

 

Anyway, let’s see what John comes back with, however I’m betting that this kit will be quite usable for the version he needs. 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

 

[Graham Boak]

The Occidental kit was available in both versions, separately boxed.  The Texan release came first - perhaps this canopy was included in the Canadian version but I don't know.  The video certainly shows the Canadian canopy, and the fuselage the right shape for it.

 

The Monogram kit was a wartime variant, not a G.  Perhaps a T-6D, but it would be possible to do others from it.  It was released later as an SNJ-2 skywriter, but only with a change in the rudder not the wider centre-section specific to this variant.

[RJP]

I have both in the stash and apart from the canopies I find there is little to choose between them.  Mostly, it's a case of surface detailing, engraved on the Ocidental kit and raised rivets on the Monogram.  

 

The only real complaint about the Ocidental kit has to do with the cowling which has insufficient taper in side view.   See Post #18 in this thread:

 

Monogram's cowling is superior in shape but does have the cutout for the cowl gun.  No biggie that if one is reasonably adept with shim and filler.

Edited January 24, 2018 by RJP

[galgos]

In my opinion all of the 1/48th T-6/Harvard kits are average to say the least and seem to have come from the same "stable" of mediocrity.  I've seen a few well made Harvards here so some effort and research yields rewards but features like the over-thick plastic for the canopy will always limit the effectiveness of the kit for me.

 

Kitty Hawk's 1/32nd T-6 has potential but again needs quite a bit of work to accurately represent a Harvard II, including the AM canopy from AlleyCat not to mention more accurate wheels (with a correction for the position of the oleo legs) and a better prop since the blades supplied are too long.  That's not even thinking about the internal differences between the T-6 and Harvard with IPs and related equipment.

 

 

A bit like the Tiger Moth, this ubiquitous trainer has been sadly ignored by the majority of mainstream manufacturers despite there being numerous examples still flying on which to base their research.

Max

[Graham Boak]

Basically, trainers don't sell well, and there are fewer models of everything in 1/48.  Even so, the Aurora one was mainstream in its day, the Monogram was excellent when it appeared and still pretty good, and Occidental did two variants - one a Harvard - whilst being generally acclaimed.  At least 1/48 hasn't seen the absorption with the postwar T-6G that 1/72 companies have suffered from - only the original very basic Hawk and the Airfix (almost but not quite as old or basic) have attempted to represent wartime aircraft.  However, even non-mainstream manufacturers have completely avoided the T-6/Harvard itself, although other variants of the NA16 family have appeared.  Of course, you can always do a Harvard I from a Wirraway, given the canopy and prop - and maybe slats.

 

PS  Overthick canopies are not just a feature of this kit in itself but an inevitable part of the production process in these scales.  The only realistic approach is to use vacforms.

 

PPS  There are only two kits available in 1/144 - both T-6Gs.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Graham Boak

[canberra kid]

Thanks for all your replies, most useful, I'm very much on the baby slopes with all this, I;ve found some photos of three of the ones I can confirm from his logbook, of the three is the SAAF one a good candidate for the Italeri kit? This is as far as I know the only one to survive so that would be a good one to go for. The last one is one from Japan post war. 

John  

[Graham Boak]

The top three are "Texan"s, the fourth one is Canadian-built and matches the Italeri kit.  Not a T-6 but a T-16.  The curved bottom to the longer final canopy segment with an additional vertical frame are the identifying features.  I would add the seial, but it isn't necessary to check.  It may or may not have a longer exhaust - probably.

 

So not the SAAF one.

 

Interestingly,  EX378 actually has the rear canopy segment cracked open, rarely seen on Harvards.  It was designed to fold back over the rear occupant's head, for gunnery training.  Or, on the more aggressive NA16 variants, combat.  The longer rear segment was fixed, so the aircraft was restricted to pilot training.

[canberra kid]

16 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The top three are "Texan"s, the fourth one is Canadian-built and matches the Italeri kit.  Not a T-6 but a T-16.  The curved bottom to the longer final canopy segment with an additional vertical frame are the identifying features.  I would add the seial, but it isn't necessary to check.  It may or may not have a longer exhaust - probably.

 

So not the SAAF one.

 

Interestingly,  EX378 actually has the rear canopy segment cracked open, rarely seen on Harvards.  It was designed to fold back over the rear occupant's head, for gunnery training.  Or, on the more aggressive NA16 variants, combat.  The longer rear segment was fixed, so the aircraft was restricted to pilot training.

Thanks Graham, so to recap, the only one I can build without too much problem is FS984? Is the SAAF on a Texen? and if so can that be done with the old Monogram kit? What would the chances of getting the necessary Canadian style serials and roundles?

John    

[Graham Boak]

FS984 is the only one of the four that can be made from the Italeri/Occidental kit without a replacement canopy and minor surgery.  I'd have thought that you could get a replacement "Texan" canopy from somewhere and you are well capable of changing the shape of the rear fuselage to fit, if that's a route you'd cae to take.

 

The SAAF one is a "Texan" - it may also have been a  Harvard at some time.  But as far as the canopy variation goes, it is a Texan.  Yes you can use the Monogram kit.  I don't know about getting the right style of markings.

[Artie]

IMHO, the best source for Canadian markings is Belcher Bits...

http://www.belcherbits.com/

 

cheers.......

[Graham Boak]

I think Aviaeology is at least as good, but suspect the CanMilAir would be better for Harvards.  Unfortunately it is (hopefully) temporarily down because of the owner's ill health.  However, I think that John is really after only the roundels and serial styles on the Harvard, rather than RCAF stuff.

[camper1]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

FS984 is the only one of the four that can be made from the Italeri/Occidental kit without a replacement canopy and minor surgery.  I'd have thought that you could get a replacement "Texan" canopy from somewhere and you are well capable of changing the shape of the rear fuselage to fit, if that's a route you'd cae to take.

 

The SAAF one is a "Texan" - it may also have been a  Harvard at some time.  But as far as the canopy variation goes, it is a Texan.  Yes you can use the Monogram kit.  I don't know about getting the right style of markings.

According to Air Britain 7732 was in a previous life EX405 the subject of Johns picture and sold to the Belgians as H.216 in 1953.

Could be the one shown has been restored or the wrong serial has been applied and its obviously been  allowed to rot a bit, the individual history shows no record of it serving with the SAAF.

Ian

[Graham Boak]

Air Britain's The Harvard File has an appendix identifying the SAAF Harvards, and 7732 was indeed EX405 via H.216.  The book also has a very nice air-to-air of EX405, showing the starboard side and a clearer view of the practice bomb racks underwing.

[canberra kid]

Thanks Graham, the photo of EX405 is that the one I posted? So I'm going for the Italeri Harvard for FS984, but if I wanted to build EX405 would it be much of a job? 

 

John