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Vlad

Bf 109G-10 Hungarian blue/yellow 12?

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This aircraft is presented in the AZ models 1/72 kit and a couple of profiles I've found online with the number 12 on the fuselage side in yellow:

 

AZM7503.jpg

13_28.jpg

 

 

However, MMP are adamant in their books "Bf 109 late versions camouflage and markings" and "Camouflage and Decals Vol. 2" that this interpretation is incorrect and the number 12 should be in blue:

 

0_fs.jpg

 

So... which is it?

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no one really knows.

 

Best guess from B/W images.   

 

There are multiple images of this plane in a JaPo book, 

bf109g10u4reviewbg_cover.jpg

 

pdf scans are out there,   as the book is long OOP and expensive used.

 

47 minutes ago, Vlad said:

MMP are adamant in their books "Bf 109 late versions camouflage and markings" and "Camouflage and Decals Vol. 2" that this interpretation is incorrect and the number 12 should be in blue:

I was less impressed by the MMP book,

 

IIRC the Hungarian Fighter Colours says grey,   I'll dig the books out later and let you know what they say, but I don't think there is a definitive answer.

 

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The JaPo book shows yellow. These books are very well researched in general, and the color profile work is stunning. You can’t fault AZ too much for following that lead. 

 

The MMP "Late 109" book shows blue. The author makes two points for his case: 1) Yellow numbers were used only in one of 101 vadaszezred’s three groups, and loss records document blue numbers in other parts of the unit. 2) One of the photos (well reproduced in the JaPo and MMP "Hungarian" book) clearly shows the number is somewhat darker than the immediately adjacent yellow fuel triangle on the fuselage's port side.

 

The MMP "Hungarian Fighter Colors" book (perhaps wisely!) does not illustrate this aircraft in color, but contains a photo of "12," and also casts doubt on its being yellow. The also cite contrast to the fuel triangle, and speculate that the number could be blue, red, or gray.

 

For what little my opinion is worth, I’d choose blue for this machine. 

 

Actually, if I had a yen for a Hungarian G-10, I might choose the well-documented “Black 15" or "Black 16!” The side number color is not only unassailable, but the machines are rather more colorful with yellow on the nose and tail. 

Edited by MDriskill

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It would not be the first time that AZ Models has goofed on their paint schemes.  For example, their Bf.109G-6AS "Special Markings" kit.  They present one scheme as "Blue 5"

AZM7509_1.jpg?t=

When in reality, it was "Green 5".  To quote from FalkeEins web blog;

Quote

Note that unfortunately AZ's research for this release has been particularly sloppy; wheel hubs were not red for a start and they have even got the colour of the Staffel number wrong on the decal sheet; it is blue in the kit and should of course have been green. One other point to note about the decal sheet - no spinner spirals. The modeller has to purchase those separately. 

As well, several years before AZ even released this kit, the folks who publish "Luftwaffe im Focus" did a decal sheet for this very aircraft:

Image result for Decal sheet for Edition 4 of "Luftwaffe im Focus"

 

This example is the first that popped to mind, but I am aware of others.  I would be leary of the AZ scheme and more trusting of what MMP has to offer in this instance and overall double check any paint schemes that AZ presents with their kits.

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9 hours ago, MDriskill said:

The excellent JaPo books shows yellow.

...

If it were me...I'd do the also well-documents "Black 15" or "Black 16," where the side number color is not only unassailable, but the machines are rather more colorful with yellow on the nose and tail!

Is the profile with the 12 in yellow I posted at the top from the JaPo book then? I assume AZ simply based it on this.

 

I have seen black 15 and 16, but oddly enough I've built (and plan to build) so many 109s that having one without all the yellow would actually be a welcome break, not least because it's horrible to paint yellows (worst coverage colour of any paint I've tried, worse than white usually).

6 hours ago, Wm Blecky said:

I would be leary of the AZ scheme and more trusting of what MMP has to offer in this instance and overall double check any paint schemes that AZ presents with their kits.

I agree with the sentiment, which is why I started this thread. But past errors are not evidence of errors in future disputes, and in this case at least one reputable source (see above JaPo recommendation) went with this scheme before they did, likely being their source.

 

I think the fact there are respectable sources for yellow make me lean towards that. The reason this was bugging me so much is I don't have a "blue 12" decal and it seemed ludicrous to buy a whole set for one number. If yellow is plausible, I would prefer not to replace it.

 

@Troy Smith looking forward to anything else you can dig up from your books. It's not painted yet so I probably don't need to make this decision for another week.

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I didn't dig too hard for a "free" PDF of the JaPo book but I did find a Flickr album that had a lot of good pictures of this aircraft. I believe they are the ones from the book, credited in fact in some of them. I'll need to spend a bit more time looking at them but I have a theory. The likelihood is these pictures were taken on orthochromatic film, which lightens blues but darkens reds and to an extent yellows. If that is the case then the number is in yellow, and it makes sense that it contrasts well with the blue-ish RLM 76 fuselage that shows up very pale in the pictures.

 

EDIT:

 

The pictures I found are captioned "Schargà 12". That isn't a word in Hungarian but a superficial grasp of the language led me to believe it is a German phonetic transliteration. Indeed the Hungarian word "sárga" would be pronounced as a German would pronounce "schargà" (if it was a real word, English equivalent would be something like "shargo"). It means "yellow".

Edited by Vlad

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HI Vlad

 

the Japo book says 101 vadaszezred only used black what and yellow for numbers.  

 

On 12/1/2018 at 23:54, MDriskill said:

The MMP "Late 109" book shows blue. The author makes two points for his case: 1) Yellow numbers were used only in one of 101 vadaszezred’s three groups, and loss records document blue numbers in other parts of the unit. 2) One of the photos (well reproduced in the JaPo and MMP "Hungarian" book) clearly shows the number is somewhat darker than the immediately adjacent yellow fuel triangle on the fuselage's port side.

 

 

 

grey in Hungarian is szürke

yellow is sárga,  and in Hungarian the 's' becomes 'sh'  so is 'shaarga' 

 

regarding the fuel filler, it should be notes that there are two German yellows.  RLM 04 and RLM 27

 

rlmcomparisonchart1.jpg

 


and,  

1 hour ago, Vlad said:

The likelihood is these pictures were taken on orthochromatic film, which lightens blues but darkens reds and to an extent yellows. If that is the case then the number is in yellow, and it makes sense that it contrasts well with the blue-ish RLM 76 fuselage that shows up very pale in the pictures.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157640110556436/page2

 

 

there are 10 images of  W.nr 612769 in the above Flickr,  taken at different time and different cameras.

 

what they all show is that the fuselage numbers are a very similar tone to the centre of the fuselage cross, which is grey, but that seems an odd colour for a fuselage identity marking.

 

 

36461167825_11647c5ed5_b.jpgBf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 612 769 "Schargà 12", 101 Vadaszsazad, Neubiberg May 1945. Source: facebook.com. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickr

 

7917085006_af61d450d4_b.jpgBf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 612 769 "Schargà 12", 101 Vadaszezred, Neubiberg 1945. Source: 9th Armored Div. via pixpast.com. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickr

 

why couldn't one Yank at Neubeiberg have had colour film!

 

I'll have a longer dig in the flickr images in a mo

 

There are images where the yellow band comes up as a darkish tone

 

like black 15 here

15177124085_d5e662538b_b.jpgBf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 612 780 "Fekete 15", 101 Vadaszsezred, Neubiberg, May 1945. Source: collection Merle C. Olmsted via Stapfer 2006, p. 59. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickr

 

frustratingly there is not a shot of  612769 with another 109 like black 15 in shot which would help to judge colour.

 

right,  I'll ponder on this,  and hope it adds a little to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Very interesting, thanks for adding to the discussion. Yes, those are the pictures I found also. To me that photo of Black 15 where the yellow nose band looks like the second darkest colour on the whole plane settles it. That and the description that blue was not a standard colour in 101 vadaszered.

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:04 AM, Vlad said:

Very interesting, thanks for adding to the discussion. Yes, those are the pictures I found also. To me that photo of Black 15 where the yellow nose band looks like the second darkest colour on the whole plane settles it. That and the description that blue was not a standard colour in 101 vadaszered.

Indeed, a great group of interesting photos, thanks for posting those.

 

Just to play devil’s advocate, the closeup of the port side well illustrates the contrast between the fuel triangle and “12,” cited by authors of both MMP books (“Late 109 Camouflage and Markings” and “Hungarian Fighter Colors”) as evidence the number was not yellow. “Late 109’s” also points out that blue numbers were documented in 101 vadaszered’s loss records, so the assertion that this color was not “standard” may not be correct.

 

Of course, it could also mean the triangle and number are simply different shades of yellow. They would have been from different sources and applied at different times of course—one at the factory, and the other in the field.

 

You just never really know...welcome to the wonderful world of late-war Luftwaffe markings research, LOL

 

:D

 

Edited by MDriskill

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Of course, all fun and games and you're perfectly correct, we can't prove or disprove anything.

 

My devil's advocate counter-argument would be that the contrast is not so readily apparent in the other port side shots (particularly the one in Troy's post). The one where it is apparent has the 12 look very light at the top and nearly black at the bottom, so it just as likely is effect of light falling on the curved fuselage, and the fuel triangle is higher up the spine.

 

Anyway, I'm coming at this from a biased angle. As I said I only need enough evidence to justify using the kit decals instead of buying new ones just for a number. It's dangerous showing me so many pictures of 109s, I want to make more now! AZ Model please do a G-10 Joy Pack! :D

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10 hours ago, Vlad said:

My devil's advocate counter-argument would be that the contrast is not so readily apparent in the other port side shots (particularly the one in Troy's post). The one where it is apparent has the 12 look very light at the top and nearly black at the bottom, so it just as likely is effect of light falling on the curved fuselage, and the fuel triangle is higher up the spine.

Well, I think we have officially beat this one to death...bottom line, I don’t think anyone will criticize you for going by a profile in the superb JaPo book.

 

Your point about light angles is excellent. It has always seemed to me that WW2-era film can be very sensitve to lighting conditions; more than once I’ve seen two or more photos of the same aircraft, that give completely different impressions of color values.

 

 

Edited by MDriskill

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In my opinion "12" tends to be blue ,refer to contrast of fuselage colour.

 

By the way, what for red landing gears on some 109G? my memory was a indication of speciallized fuel or oil, but cannot find original book..

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8 hours ago, fernandocouto said:

By the way, what for red landing gears on some 109G? my memory was a indication of speciallized fuel or oil, but cannot find original book..

The red landing gear paint was sometimes used as a reminder to service personnel, on 109’s with those versions of the DB 605AS or DB 605D engines that were configured for 96-octane fuel. Most other 109’s used 87-octane gas.

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