Airfix 2019

[lasermonkey]

Getting back on track, I shall repeat my nominations for the following, all in 1/72 of course!

Westland Lysander

Hawker Hart family

Junkers Ju 88A-1 (much needed to complete the Battle of Britain lineup and as far as I know, no one else does one.)

Metal wing Hurricane Mk I. I still think that there are no really good kits of the Hurricane in this scale.

Bristol Beaufort

Westland Whirlwind (the fighter). Obviously there aren't any around to measure (unless you believe the story about one being buried at Filton!) but maybe enough info around to make it viable?

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Rabbit Leader]

Yes, back on track - good idea I'm into happy stories! 

That's a nice list lasermonkey, I'd just like to add a Harvard IIb (with options for T-6/SNJ) into the mix. 

I know its been repeated many times on here, however if we keep mentioning it you never know you're luck. 

Its bound to sell a few I'd think! 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

[Meatbox8]

2 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Yes, back on track - good idea I'm into happy stories! 

That's a nice list lasermonkey, I'd just like to add a Harvard IIb (with options for T-6/SNJ) into the mix. 

I know its been repeated many times on here, however if we keep mentioning it you never know you're luck. 

Its bound to sell a few I'd think! 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

In that case I'm going to mention 2-stage Merlin Mosquito again.  You never know!

[Rafdec]

How about ;-

 

Westland Whirlwind Helicopter  ( All Marks ).

Westland Wessex HAS.1 / HC.2.

Bristol Belvedere.

 

[Ratch]

6 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Not sure what you identify as the inaccurate statement, and what as the spurious point. My point was that a new tool with a pocket money price will only work with a kit that has appeal to be sold in sufficient quantities, as the margin will be lower on a S. 1 or 2 new tool and hence need higher sales volume to recover costs over a reasonable period. Obviously Airfix have judged this point to be fulfilled by Spitfire, Me 109, Hurricane, Fw 190, P-51 and Gnat. Surely not Walrus or SR.53. Before that, when did they release the most recent new tool S. 1 and 2 kits ? Must have been 1978/9 with the Whirlwind (which was pushed to S. 2 to improve its margin) and D-9 and SPit I.

I have no idea how well the Starter kits sell, as I think haven't seen them on sale in Germany at all (which doesn't mean much). I only know that Hornby must have dumped a truckload of mainly 1/48 Lynx gift sets/starter kits which ended up with one or two online dealers and sold via ebay over several months. Those kits sold for an average of less than 20 € IIRC, I think I managed an average of slightly over 15 for the several I bought. The smaller sets may have sold better elsewhere as I can't remember them flooding ebay.de.

Well you said that Airfix made a Cromwell, which they didn't (unless you mean the polyprop and not a kit), and you said that the payback period for the tooling was expected to be 30 years, which no company would invest in a tool for such a long period (3-5yrs max), and then you said the pocket money purchases were dead. If that was the case why are there so many Starter Kits sold in the UK. Airfix's main market is the UK. I suspect Revell's main market is Germany and their range reflects German modeller's interests whereas Airfix reflect British tastes.

[rod mcq]

2 hours ago, Ratch said:

Well you said that Airfix made a Cromwell, which they didn't (unless you mean the polyprop and not a kit), and you said that the payback period for the tooling was expected to be 30 years, which no company would invest in a tool for such a long period (3-5yrs max), and then you said the pocket money purchases were dead. If that was the case why are there so many Starter Kits sold in the UK. Airfix's main market is the UK. I suspect Revell's main market is Germany and their range reflects German modeller's interests whereas Airfix reflect British tastes.

It is dangerous to say something would never happen. The following is a quote from the Arthur Ward book " The Boys' Book of Airfix" ( page 133 in my copy).

 

"Peter Allen ( a senior designer at Airfix) told me that, before their collapse, Airfix amortised the cost for their new 1/600 scale battleship King George V over a forecast 25 year period"

[VMA131Marine]

26 minutes ago, rod mcq said:

Peter Allen ( a senior designer at Airfix) told me that, before their collapse, Airfix amortised the cost for their new 1/600 scale battleship King George V over a forecast 25 year period"

This just says that Airfix planned to pay back the cost of the tooling over 25 years, not necessarily that the income from the kit would take 25 years to cover the cost of the investment in the mould. It's well-known that the bulk of the income for a new kit comes in the first year or so of release when interest is high. This is why manufacturers try to size their initial production run to cover the mold design and development costs.

[Andre B]

Concerning the upcoming movie "Hurricane" it would be an good idea for Airfix to catch the moment of interest and produce an 1/72 metalwing BoB Hurricane Mk.I...

 

/André

Edited June 26, 2018 by Andre B

[tempestfan]

3 hours ago, Ratch said:

Well you said that Airfix made a Cromwell, which they didn't (unless you mean the polyprop and not a kit), and you said that the payback period for the tooling was expected to be 30 years, which no company would invest in a tool for such a long period (3-5yrs max), and then you said the pocket money purchases were dead. 

Errr... no I most certainly didn’t. Nor did I say they did a 1/12 RR Phantom... They studied potential subjects and calculated amortisation periods. Another subject they looked at was a 757 to extend the Skykings, which was surprisingly expensive at something like 55k. Would have to look up if any of the subjects was realised, at least none of the S. 1 and 2 subjects IIRC. Which suggests they considered the pocket money kits not really viable. I suggest you contact Jeremy for a back issue, the piece was really interesting, including a bit of info on the Gunze and Eidai 1/24 cars they insourced. Surprised you don’t know it as helmsman of the ATF.

[Plasto]

Possibly something Hornby could do is re-release the 1/48 Sea Vixen, 1/48  Javelin and the 1/72 Valiant.  All largeish kits, squarely aimed at the enthusiast modeller and likely sold in a specialist retailer.. The kits are modern and have been OOP for a while.. 

[GreenDragon]

11 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Errr... no I most certainly didn’t. Nor did I say they did a 1/12 RR Phantom... They studied potential subjects and calculated amortisation periods. Another subject they looked at was a 757 to extend the Skykings, which was surprisingly expensive at something like 55k. Would have to look up if any of the subjects was realised, at least none of the S. 1 and 2 subjects IIRC. Which suggests they considered the pocket money kits not really viable. I suggest you contact Jeremy for a back issue, the piece was really interesting, including a bit of info on the Gunze and Eidai 1/24 cars they insourced. Surprised you don’t know it as helmsman of the ATF.

Didn't know they were looking at the 757, I would have bought a truckload of them! Love the look of the 757 and I hear Zvezda are working on one. If they do release it they'll be getting my money.

 

Paul Harrison (who is sticking with his old Me 262's because he ain't paying no £18 for an Airfix one!)

[tempestfan]

18 minutes ago, GreenDragon said:

Didn't know they were looking at the 757, I would have bought a truckload of them! Love the look of the 757 and I hear Zvezda are working on one.

I didn't know either till I saw the article in CS. It would have been a good subject basically (didn't BA have a large fleet of them ?), and for some odd reason it remained unkitted by a mainstream manufacturer as the only Boeing product for a very long time (IIRC Minicraft did a mould, some time ago ?). As I said, I recall that they calculated tooling cost of 55k, which was one of the more expensive moulds. The Norton mould on the other hand (bought [?] in from Heller) was slightly under 50. In any event, they appeared to be rather cash strapped, so those moulds remained studies only.

[Dave Fleming]

Amortisation over a period will be for accounting and tax purposes. Comparisons with historic Airfix prices and costs aren't really valid, as modern toolmaking is a different beast and in real terms cheaper than it used to be ('You'd be surprised how much cheaper, a fraction of what it used to be'). Production costs are probably now the most improtant factor, as they don't have their own facilities (Cost of plastsics, number of 'pulls' on the injection machine etc) - witness the fact they produced a new Red Arrows Hawk mould as the Series 3 kit was too complicated for a starter kit

[Work In Progress]

16 hours ago, VMA131Marine said:

This just says that Airfix planned to pay back the cost of the tooling over 25 years, not necessarily that the income from the kit would take 25 years to cover the cost of the investment in the mould. It's well-known that the bulk of the income for a new kit comes in the first year or so of release when interest is high. This is why manufacturers try to size their initial production run to cover the mold design and development costs.

Correct. Amortisation policy is an accounting decision, not an economic decision.

[Robert]

For 2019 l hope they make some better marketing decisions. How can you have a re-release kit of the Vampire T11 and Gnat but not the best innovative aircraft ever in the Harrier GR1/3 for the RAF centenary. They could have done a boxing with new decals.

 

Robert

[Plasto]

My understanding is that for a regular kit ( styrene, no in moulding and no PE ) the plastic is the lowest cost item the decals and box / carton are proportionally much more expensive. So reboxing and new decals for say a limited run is probably an expensive exercise. Especially when,  you include your costs around research, artwork , instructions etc.

 

I guess that’s why the cheaper kits use an end opening box and have limited marking choices.

 

So I guess any marketing decisions are constrained by budget and price point the kit is aimed at..

[PhantomBigStu]

8 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Amortisation over a period will be for accounting and tax purposes. Comparisons with historic Airfix prices and costs aren't really valid, as modern toolmaking is a different beast and in real terms cheaper than it used to be ('You'd be surprised how much cheaper, a fraction of what it used to be'). Production costs are probably now the most improtant factor, as they don't have their own facilities (Cost of plastsics, number of 'pulls' on the injection machine etc) - witness the fact they produced a new Red Arrows Hawk mould as the Series 3 kit was too complicated for a starter kit

Building the ‘old’ tool now and having build the new one recently, yes its simpler in a couple of areas but not that much aside from the big stores sprue, is that literally the reason they retooled it, and they already had released the old one as a starter set anyway?

[Denford]

On 6/26/2018 at 9:36 PM, Andre B said:

Concerning the upcoming movie "Hurricane" it would be an good idea for Airfix to catch the moment of interest and produce an 1/72 metalwing BoB Hurricane Mk.I...

 

/André

Most unlikely, to the point of never.

An earlier post, which I now can't find, said that some 80% of sales are to 'pocket money' and Christmas/Birthday present buyer ie not serious modellers such as followers of this site.

To such people a Hurricane is just that, with no interest whatever in whether the wings are covered in fabric, metal or even plywood.  Likewise a Griffon Spitfire and several others.  Few of the film audience are going to insist on a metal winged Hurricane.

To capitalise on the movie, they need only to see that there are plentiful supplies of Hurricanes already tooled.  Remember it takes at least a year from 'go ahead' to the retailers shelves. Prior to that there has to be research into colour schemes, markings, variants, royalties, size of production run, profitability, cash flow, expected life of existing moulds and probably some other considerations.  Moreover the kit would have to be issued ahaad of the film not several months afterwards and few of Airfix's recent release dates have been met.

A 2 stage Mosquito\ Bomber is likewise often called for and the same considerations apply.  Hannants website show a re-issue (albeit with different markings) of their original 70's release so the moulds obviously still have some life in them.

That said there is still an enormous 'pool' of subjects which Airfix have never tooled or which they have long ago but no longer up to modern standards and/or difficult or very expensive (Hello Hasegawa) to source elsewhere.

Of the former Beaufort, Venom, Me 410 for which Xtradecals now list a comprehensive sheet.  Perhaps they know something.....

Of the latter I'm still hoping for a folding wing Avenger: no luck with the recent Sword offering.  One can still hope

[Wez]

2 hours ago, Denford said:

Most unlikely, to the point of never.

An earlier post, which I now can't find, said that some 80% of sales are to 'pocket money' and Christmas/Birthday present buyer ie not serious modellers such as followers of this site.

To such people a Hurricane is just that, with no interest whatever in whether the wings are covered in fabric, metal or even plywood.  Likewise a Griffon Spitfire and several others.  Few of the film audience are going to insist on a metal winged Hurricane.

To capitalise on the movie, they need only to see that there are plentiful supplies of Hurricanes already tooled.  Remember it takes at least a year from 'go ahead' to the retailers shelves. Prior to that there has to be research into colour schemes, markings, variants, royalties, size of production run, profitability, cash flow, expected life of existing moulds and probably some other considerations.  Moreover the kit would have to be issued ahaad of the film not several months afterwards and few of Airfix's recent release dates have been met.

A 2 stage Mosquito\ Bomber is likewise often called for and the same considerations apply.  Hannants website show a re-issue (albeit with different markings) of their original 70's release so the moulds obviously still have some life in them.

That said there is still an enormous 'pool' of subjects which Airfix have never tooled or which they have long ago but no longer up to modern standards and/or difficult or very expensive (Hello Hasegawa) to source elsewhere.

Of the former Beaufort, Venom, Me 410 for which Xtradecals now list a comprehensive sheet.  Perhaps they know something.....

Of the latter I'm still hoping for a folding wing Avenger: no luck with the recent Sword offering.  One can still hope

To some extent I agree with this post, the casual buyer doesn't care what the Hurricane/Spitfire/Mosquito mark is as long as it is a Hurricane/Spitfire/Mosquito (insert other aircraft type of choice), but if that's the be-all and end all of of it, why bother rendering a specific mark of aircraft (or other subject), at all? Why not just kit a generic Hurricanish/Spitfireish/Mosquitoish?

 

The reason why Airfix and other manufacturers kit a specific mark is they know it will encourage repeat sells to the enthusiasts, they know the enthusiasts will seek out that kit in preference to others, why else have Airfix given us a 1/72nd scale kits of Mark I/II, IX, XIX  and 22 Spitfires in recent years? If you follow the logic that the Mark is unimportant they would have stopped with just one of those and said "that's your lot"!  Yes that's fine for 80% of buyers who may just buy one Spitfire, nut no good for the remaining 20% who may buy half a dozen of a specific mark.

 

Therefore I would counter, there's every reason to hope for a tin wing Hurricane.  Little Johnny will be happy with his one off Hurricane, Grown up Johnny the Hurricane enthusiast wants several rag wing Hurricanes, even more tin wing Mk.I's as well as Mk.II and IV's.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Wez said:

To some extent I agree with this post, the casual buyer doesn't care what the Hurricane/Spitfire/Mosquito mark is as long as it is a Hurricane/Spitfire/Mosquito (insert other aircraft type of choice), but if that's the be-all and end all of of it, why bother rendering a specific mark of aircraft (or other subject), at all? Why not just kit a generic Hurricanish/Spitfireish/Mosquitoish?

 

The reason why Airfix and other manufacturers kit a specific mark is they know it will encourage repeat sells to the enthusiasts, they know the enthusiasts will seek out that kit in preference to others, why else have Airfix given us a 1/72nd scale kits of Mark I/II, IX, XIX  and 22 Spitfires in recent years? If you follow the logic that the Mark is unimportant they would have stopped with just one of those and said "that's your lot"!  Yes that's fine for 80% of buyers who may just buy one Spitfire, nut no good for the remaining 20% who may buy half a dozen of a specific mark.

 

Therefore I would counter, there's every reason to hope for a tin wing Hurricane.  Little Johnny will be happy with his one off Hurricane, Grown up Johnny the Hurricane enthusiast wants several rag wing Hurricanes, even more tin wing Mk.I's as well as Mk.II and IV's.

 

The Hurricane problem is that there is no easy way to do all the variants without lots of different mouldings,  there are six different wings,

 

and two and half fuselages if you want to do the entire family, and depending on how you count them, 10 different propellers....

The best stab was the Hasegawa in 1/48 and they did not do the fabric wing or the correct IId or Mk.IV wing.

 

I don't see it happening, not for a while at least, given the two recent new tools in 72 and 48th, however limited they might be.

 

[Denford]

Don't seem to be able to reply directly to comments on my 'Why no Tin Winged Hurricane'?  Let's hope that this works.

 

You write that Airfix have tooled several marks of Spitfire so there's no reason that they shouldn't do the same for Hurricanes: true, but the last Spitfire was several years ago and the first one of the very first releases under the new Airfix managent a decade or so ago.  But things have moved on and Airfix have changed the way they operate.  No longer 'you win some: you lose some' : they must perforce win them all.  Were they 'starting all over again', the Spifires would surely all have been compatible with each other.  In fact none are.

 

As pointed out, a tin winged  Hurricane, would require a completely new tool just to add another variant to a type already represented.  Likewise for a Spitfire XlV.  And there's the issue of resources: those of Airfix, like everyone else, are limited.  Anything tooled must be at the expense of something else: another Hurricane or something completely new like the start of a Venom\Sea Venom series?

 

You list your interests as Hurricanes, so I can understand your urge, but don't expect Airfix to fulfill it.  Wasn't there an Alley Cat conversion?

[VMA131Marine]

21 hours ago, Plasto said:

My understanding is that for a regular kit ( styrene, no in moulding and no PE ) the plastic is the lowest cost item

In terms of material costs only, that's probably true. But, you have to also assign a fraction of the mold development costs to each kit as well. Between a rebox and a new tool, the other costs you mentioned are relatively fixed, whereas the rebox no longer has to include the cost of the mould itself so reboxes should be commensurately more profitable; assuming they sell.

[VMA131Marine]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

The Hurricane problem is that there is no easy way to do all the variants without lots of different mouldings,  there are six different wings,

Have you seen how Eduard has molded multiple wings and fuselages for their Bf 109, Fw 190, and Spitfire kits to account for all the variations? There's no reason that Airfix could not do something similar.

 

Here's the list of all the 1/72 Fw 190 sprues, which includes 7 different fuselage and wing sets:

 

A: Common large sprue of detail parts
B: Small sprue of ground attack detail parts 
C- A-8 fuselage + universal wing with outboard MG 151
D- Common small sprue of clear parts 
E: A-8 armored “Sturmbock” fuselage + universal wing with outboard MK 108
F: F-8 fuselage + universal wing with empty outboard bays
G: A-5 fuselage + early wing with outboard MG FF
H: A-8 fuselage + standard wing with outboard MG 151
I: A-8 fuselage + standard wing with empty outboard bays
J: A-5 fuselage + early wing with empty outboard bays

Edited June 28, 2018 by VMA131Marine

[VMA131Marine]

6 hours ago, Denford said:

An earlier post, which I now can't find, said that some 80% of sales are to 'pocket money' and Christmas/Birthday present buyer ie not serious modellers such as followers of this site.

Maybe that's true for Airfix and is part of the problem. I'd guess that 0% of Wingnut Wings sales and the sales of Kitty Hawk, Kinetic, AMK, maybe Eduard, Tamiya and Hasegawa outside Japan, Special Hobby, ICM, and others are from the "pocket money" crowd. I get the feeling sometimes that Airfix still aspires to a 1970's sales model that is no longer valid.

[Wez]

2 minutes ago, Denford said:

Don't seem to be able to reply directly to comments on my 'Why no Tin Winged Hurricane'?  Let's hope that this works.

 

You write that Airfix have tooled several marks of Spitfire so there's no reason that they shouldn't do the same for Hurricanes: true, but the last Spitfire was several years ago and the first one of the very first releases under the new Airfix managent a decade or so ago.  But things have moved on and Airfix have changed the way they operate.  No longer 'you win some: you lose some' : they must perforce win them all.  Were they 'starting all over again', the Spifires would surely all have been compatible with each other.  In fact none are.

 

As pointed out, a tin winged  Hurricane, would require a completely new tool just to add another variant to a type already represented.  Likewise for a Spitfire XlV.  And there's the issue of resources: those of Airfix, like everyone else, are limited.  Anything tooled must be at the expense of something else: another Hurricane or something completely new like the start of a Venom\Sea Venom series?

 

You list your interests as Hurricanes, so I can understand your urge, but don't expect Airfix to fulfill it.  Wasn't there an Alley Cat conversion?

I'm not sure now where this is going or if it was intended for me.  I'm interested in Hurricanes insofar as I'm interested  in most things British, I only used the Hurricane to illustrate my point, I'd much rather have a Venom or even a Sea Venom over another Hurricane.

 

My point is this, Airfix have released a Ju-87 B-1 and B-2, they've done this to maximise use of the mould but realistically who's going to be bothered about it being a B-1 over a B-2, answer, the enthusiast, little Johnny won't give a toss about the difference between the two marks but we do and its what keeps us coming back for more!