No 601 Squadron Hurricanes Mk.I with Flying Sword on the lower engine cowling

[JackG]

Has the book 'Twelve Days in May' by Brian Cull been ruled out as having any serial information on Aitken's Hurricane while stationed in France?  I found this scoreboard, and since their source of info does not include this book, maybe there is something within those pages?

 

 

http://www.cieldegloire.com/003_aitken_j_w_m.php

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited June 10, 2019 by JackG

[Troy Smith]

On 09/06/2019 at 18:43, Smithy said:

So it is possible that Robinson's mount had the rings and "lightning bolt" actually in dark and light blues and not in red, white and blue.

 

The problem with this is it requires Cambridge Blue to photograph the same dark tone as the red in the roundel and fin flash.  From what is known of Cambridge Blue,  it's a lighter colour than Oxford Blue,  though quite what the pre war shade is is open to debate,  but it would require something to photograph as dark as the red,  and the blue is very pale in the image, as are the undersides.  

I made these points above, but here's the pic again

 

the other possibility is that the spinners are red/white/blue,  and the blue was either Oxford or Cambridge blue depending on the flight? 

I don't have the book, and this is supposition from the comment about the spinners having these colours,  but trying to tie it tin with the tones in the image above.

[Troy Smith]

29 minutes ago, JackG said:

Has the book 'Twelve Days in May' by Brian Cull been ruled out as having any serial information on Aitken's Hurricane while stationed in France?  I found this scoreboard, and since their source of info does include this book, maybe there is something within those pages?

Hmm, my copy not to hand, perhaps @Graham Boak could have a look.

One thing of note, is the 23 May entry is for a Hurricane Mk.I, while the 25/26 June is for P2920.

 

Is there a record of when P2920 joined the Squadron?  (I'll see if my book can be found...) 

If P2920 joined after the film was shot,  is i possible that the C/O would have had swapped for a new plane with the Rotol prop if he had the opportunity? 

 

[Smithy]

33 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The problem with this is it requires Cambridge Blue to photograph the same dark tone as the red in the roundel and fin flash.  From what is known of Cambridge Blue,  it's a lighter colour than Oxford Blue,  though quite what the pre war shade is is open to debate,  but it would require something to photograph as dark as the red,  and the blue is very pale in the image, as are the undersides.  

I made these points above, but here's the pic again

 

the other possibility is that the spinners are red/white/blue,  and the blue was either Oxford or Cambridge blue depending on the flight? 

I don't have the book, and this is supposition from the comment about the spinners having these colours,  but trying to tie it tin with the tones in the image above.

 

The problem Troy is trying to judge tonal contrasts and colour shade in a grainy black and white photo which is taken in bright sunlight and therefore affects the contrast in the image. You're a brave man if you think you can definitively rule out a light Cambridge Blue from that kind of image.

 

1 hour ago, JackG said:

Has the book 'Twelve Days in May' by Brian Cull been ruled out as having any serial information on Aitken's Hurricane while stationed in France?  I found this scoreboard, and since their source of info does include this book, maybe there is something within those pages?

 

 

http://www.cieldegloire.com/003_aitken_j_w_m.php

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Twelve Days in May only lists the serials of two of Aitken's Hurricanes. One on the 18th being N2568, and on the 19th as P3460.

[Smithy]

I should add in relation to Max's Hurricanes the two listed above are listed in the ORB so there's nothing new in Twelve Days. The ORB is a much better and extensive source of information for the serials of the Hurris that he flew operationally.

[AndyL]

Interesting as I've got a photograph of a 501 Squadron Hurricane lost in June 1940 showing what looks to be a red, white and blue spinner.

[Troy Smith]

47 minutes ago, Smithy said:

The problem Troy is trying to judge tonal contrasts and colour shade in a grainy black and white photo which is taken in bright sunlight and therefore affects the contrast in the image. You're a brave man if you think you can definitively rule out a light Cambridge Blue from that kind of image.

I'm only talking about films and filters, and their effects on colours.

 

We are on pretty safe ground on what some of the colours are in the image, as in the marking colours, and the camouflage colours,  and how they photograph with different films and filters.

 

In case I was referring to the blue,  which has come out as very light tone, and the red, which has come out as very dark tone.

the spinner has tones which match the tones of the red, white and blue, as does the lightning flash.

the pale colour ion the spinner is a good tonal match to the marking blue, (which is also Oxford blue) and the lightning flash and spinner tip are a good tonal match to the markings red.

 

What I was trying to say,  lighter blue, or blue-green (Cambridge Blue) with the filter/ film combination is going to be represented as a light tone, or, what colours is going to photograph as dark tone that will also show the marking red as a dark tone.

 

Does that make sense?  from the image above, with a filter/film that makes a known blue a light tone, and known red a dark tone, I find it hard to believe that this filter/film combination could also make a mid-blue or blue-green appear as dark as the red.

 

Happy to be contradicted, the above is the deductive process.     

 

also for a light blue/dark blue comparison with B/W film and filters

 

On 27/02/2015 at 19:03, Mark12 said:

 

Don't under estimate the amount of work that went in to trying to get the right tonal quality for the painting of SL721 in that unspecified blue.

PeterA

 

26 minutes ago, AndyL said:

Interesting as I've got a photograph of a 501 Squadron Hurricane lost in June 1940 showing what looks to be a red, white and blue spinner.

is 501 a a typo for 601, or another example of non standard spinner colours in the summer of 1940 (eg 17 sq, 85 Sq, 66 sq for other examples) 

 

 

 

[AndyL]

No it's 501, the Hurricane flown by Pilot Officer Cecil Hulse who was lost on 8th June 1940. The photo shows the remains of his Hurricane lay inverted in a small wooded area, and substantially complete. 

[Smithy]

24 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I'm only talking about films and filters, and their effects on colours.

 

We are on pretty safe ground on what some of the colours are in the image, as in the marking colours, and the camouflage colours,  and how they photograph with different films and filters.

 

In case I was referring to the blue,  which has come out as very light tone, and the red, which has come out as very dark tone.

the spinner has tones which match the tones of the red, white and blue, as does the lightning flash.

the pale colour ion the spinner is a good tonal match to the marking blue, (which is also Oxford blue) and the lightning flash and spinner tip are a good tonal match to the markings red.

 

What I was trying to say,  lighter blue, or blue-green (Cambridge Blue) with the filter/ film combination is going to be represented as a light tone, or, what colours is going to photograph as dark tone that will also show the marking red as a dark tone.

 

Does that make sense?  from the image above, with a filter/film that makes a known blue a light tone, and known red a dark tone, I find it hard to believe that this filter/film combination could also make a mid-blue or blue-green appear as dark as the red.

 

Happy to be contradicted, the above is the deductive process.     

 

also for a light blue/dark blue comparison with B/W film and filters

 

 

is 501 a a typo for 601, or another example of non standard spinner colours in the summer of 1940 (eg 17 sq, 85 Sq, 66 sq for other examples) 

 

 

 

 

I know what you're saying Troy and they're great points.

 

What I'm really trying to say is that it is incredibly difficult to say one way or the other or to rule out something altogether. As well as the not fantastic B&W film used and the very harsh overhead sunlight there's also the matter of curved surfaces which will affect contrast but also, perhaps just as importantly, that 601 might have used colours and shades which were the closest they could find/mix to ape Oxford and Cambridge Blues. We are automatically assuming they used exact matches for the university blues which is hardly a foregone conclusion. This was a frontline combat unit and I wouldn't be surprised if using a darker blue and lighter blue was enough for them at this time. The university blues were an internal identification for the unit, something that had a tradition in the unit and something only 601 themselves were aware of the significance of.

[JackG]

Smithy, thank you for those two serials.   N2568 was also listed as being flown by Rhodes-Moorehouse four days later on the 22nd of May when he bagged a 109.  Not sure what is amiss, but the listing of Hurricane production has skipped about 21 serials, exactly where that one would fit in:

 

 

P3460 does make the production list, so that is good, but still not sure which of the two is likely to have the individual code letter A.  Maybe they both did, but not at the same time - the latter Hurricane being a replacement of  Aitken's former mount?

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

[Smithy]

The Hurricanes that Max used which were marked A will be more than likely those which he used a lot over a certain period. Like with all pilots who had a regular aircraft there will be times when the aircraft was not serviceable hence why you'll see a pattern in the ORB or a logbook where a pilot is mostly flying one machine interspersed occasionally with other aircraft.

 

If you're keen on doing one of Max's, I'd pick a period that you want to depict the model from and then use the ORB to ascertain which aircraft was being the most used by Max in that period. Prior to the BoB as you've probably seen around the time end of the Phoney War and the start of the Blitzkrieg it seems that some of 601's Hurris had the serials painted over so you might not even have to use a serial on your model.

 

If it was me, I'd personally go for Max's one in the film as we know what she looked like at this time. A with "mAx" on the leading edges, De Havilland schnozz, nice flying sword on a white painted chin, yellow ring on the port underwing roundel and serial number painted out.

 

I did Billy Fiske's P3383 (one of Willie's old regular mounts) back in 2007, and part of me is tempted to do it again except this time with the uni colours on the spinner.

 

[ClaudioN]

11 hours ago, JackG said:

N2568 was also listed as being flown by Rhodes-Moorehouse four days later on the 22nd of May when he bagged a 109.  Not sure what is amiss, but the listing of Hurricane production has skipped about 21 serials, exactly where that one would fit in:

Possibly P2568 ?

HTH

Claudio

[JackG]

Hello Claudio, yes I had considered maybe the first letter be interchanged with another that was common for this period.  P2568 was mentioned on page 2 of this thread, and is also associated with A flight leader Archibald Hope (UF-R) on the 27th of May.  The air frame was abandoned upon crash landing on the beach.

 

 

Previous to that, he was flying L2141 which he crash landed on the 17th.  So was the P serial an immediate replacement - uncertain.  

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

A few more shots of the striped prop nose, pictures are linked to their source. 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

[Smithy]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

 

 

It's such a good photo of Billy Clyde, that one, it's also quite significant because it shows one of the very first Suits, Aircrew pattern uniforms. There were very, very few of these in Fighter Command at this stage (autumn 1940).

 

Not terribly relevant to the discussion at hand but from an historical RAF perspective it's worth noting! 

[tonywalton]

Hi  Just to throw a little aside into the mix.  Great topic by the way , I love all the input. However  just something that took my attention. 

On the photo  of uf-a running up, between the spinner and the sword it looks to me to be a small S/Ldr pennant !!!!.  Definitely not a gap or cooling slot.

Such interesting aircraft in this squadron

[JackG]

Tony, good catch there.   I noticed that dark rectangle above the hole (btw, what is that hole, I see Arma Hobby's Hurricane kit does not have this) but just dismissed it as some kind of stencil.

 

Looking at the 601 diary, Aitken became Squadron Leader on June 6th.

https://601diary.wordpress.com/the-diary/diary-1940/

 

regards,

Jack

Edited June 13, 2019 by JackG

[Smithy]

10 hours ago, tonywalton said:

Hi  Just to throw a little aside into the mix.  Great topic by the way , I love all the input. However  just something that took my attention. 

On the photo  of uf-a running up, between the spinner and the sword it looks to me to be a small S/Ldr pennant !!!!.  Definitely not a gap or cooling slot.

Such interesting aircraft in this squadron

 

Well spotted, could well be!