1:72 Airfix BAC TSR.2

[Navy Bird]

10 hours ago, Procopius said:

Based on photo inspection, XR219, 220, and 222 all appear to have it. 

 

Excellent. The model shall have it then, as it is rather conspicuous. Thanks for checking.

 

8 hours ago, Graeme H said:

Blimey I get sick on Saturday, with some dreaded lurgy, and now I'm sort of feeling a bit better I find this, so is there a chair in the quarantine sections that I may sit in on this.

 

Ugh - the dreaded lurgy! The bane of all modellers - when there's an empty workbench, spare time, and one can't take advantage due to being in a nautical way (as in heave-ho). The quarantine section is available and there's plenty of seats. I might need one myself.

 

6 hours ago, stever219 said:

IIRC it served the artificial feel system for the powered flying controls, so it would apply to all prototype and pre-production aeroplanes at least.  There's a duct that leads down through the fin spigot to the feel unit bellows I think.

 

Some significant rearrangement within the rear fuselage was planned for production aircraft (mainly to ease congestion within the engine accessory bays) which may have led to further revisions to maintain CofG.

 

There's a very good cutaway drawing that shows this which I first recall seeing in a mid-seventies RAF Yearbook as part of a short article by Roland Beamont about XR219's first and only excursion north of the sound barrier.

 

I'm taking a guess here - does the feel system make the powered controls "feel" as if one is instead pulling on some mechanical cables etc.? So that the pilot needs to apply increasing force as the control surfaces are actuated through their range?

 

38 minutes ago, perdu said:

Can we arrange for a segregated room for Graeme please, some of we elderly watchers have been warned to keep away from infections because we're old

And I can go in there too, I feel a cold coming on

 

I will have someone coming in at odd times to replenish the cocktail bar and popcorn

I have an affinity to XR220, whenever our club gets in to the Cosford/Telford modellers show I manage to sever veins in my scalp on the front UHF antenna

 

Move across a tad Graeme, this is Bill going to excel

 

As far as the cocktail bar, some single malt Scotch is of course required along with a nice British IPA. I'm feeling hoppy today. And tell them to put a flag on that antenna - warplanes are supposed to harm the enemy not the taxpayer.  

 

I know all about being old and getting infections. I now have yet another sinus infection that won't go away in spite of the tons of antibiotics we're throwing at it. Last year, this resulted in sinus surgery after a stay in the krankenhaus with pleural effusions. The chemo regimen (that I've completed!) has basically nuked my immune system and my body no longer makes the IGG antibody, so I'm prone to upper respiratory infections. I just had another transfusion of synthetic IGG last week and it looks like this will be an ongoing therapy. Not unheard of in cancer patients like myself. I look at it this way - there are good days and bad days. But at least there are days!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[perdu]

At least there are days! 

 

I completely agree, makes me wonder where that youth thing went, I've been feeling old for centuries
It isn't in any order of similarity Bill but I now have to take so many artificial versions of stuff my ancient bod has forgotten to make that I rattle for ten minutes every morning

If you prescribe the single malt of preference for the build I will ensure the young lady gets some in

[06/24]

Bill's choice of course, but I'm rather partial to a speyside myself...

[Navy Bird]

28 minutes ago, 06/24 said:

Bill's choice of course, but I'm rather partial to a speyside myself...

 

Master of Malt 30 year old? Works for me. You guys are buying, right? We don't have a huge selection of single malts in the town where I live since well, I'm not in Scotland, and it's a small town. Glenlivet 12 yr old is in my cupboard at the present time. Unless wifey mistook it for her medicine again, I best go have a look.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[stever219]

2 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I'm taking a guess here - does the feel system make the powered controls "feel" as if one is instead pulling on some mechanical cables etc.? So that the pilot needs to apply increasing force as the control surfaces are actuated through their range?

 

Cheers,

Bill

Sort of.  The system is intended to give the pilot an idea of the loads that he is applying throughout the speed range): in very simple terms the faster the jet is flying the heavier the controls feel, thereby restricting the amount of g that can be pulled (or pushed) at higher speeds and hopefully preventing over stressing of the aeroplane.  Often the system has a non-linear rate, so a pull for 4 g will be more than twice that for 2 g (along the lines of drag increasing with speed squared).  

 

An RAF Javelin was lost when the feel system was incorrectly set up: the pilot pulled into a break into the circuit with a stick force that should have generated around 5 1/2 g, it actually generated 11 g and the result was a fatal aluminium shower.

[David H]

26 minutes ago, stever219 said:

Sort of.  The system is intended to give the pilot an idea of the loads that he is applying throughout the speed range): in very simple terms the faster the jet is flying the heavier the controls feel, thereby restricting the amount of g that can be pulled (or pushed) at higher speeds and hopefully preventing over stressing of the aeroplane.  Often the system has a non-linear rate, so a pull for 4 g will be more than twice that for 2 g (along the lines of drag increasing with speed squared).  

 

An RAF Javelin was lost when the feel system was incorrectly set up: the pilot pulled into a break into the circuit with a stick force that should have generated around 5 1/2 g, it actually generated 11 g and the result was a fatal aluminium shower.

On a related note, the Falcon 50 i fly has a fully-powered flight control system with artificial feel; there's an artificial feel unit for the elevators and one for the ailerons. Ram air is taken in thru two completely different sources and sent to the Air Data Computer, which among other things looks at altitude and total air temperature. The computer output then adjusts an electrically adjusted and a hydraulically adjusted fulcrum (one in the tail, one out at the left wing), which automatically increases or decreases resistance on the yoke, depending on speed.

Very clever engineers, those French.

However, the system can fail, reverting the controls to the low speed, low force, high authority mode. This happened on a Falcon 900 operated by the Greek Government. The pilots over controlled the plane into a pilot induced oscillation, and 7 passengers were killed.

I know this because we own the airplane it happened on.

 

-d-

[Magua87]

On 07/01/2018 at 4:51 PM, Navy Bird said:

You'll notice that the cockpit tub has received a coat of Dark Admiralty Grey - I can't tell you how many times I've sanded things to fit only to find they don't fit once they're painted. Tolerances are such a pain.

Knowing your preference for Gunze colours. Which paint did you use for the Dark Admiralty Grey? 

[Navy Bird]

1 hour ago, stever219 said:

Sort of.  The system is intended to give the pilot an idea of the loads that he is applying throughout the speed range): in very simple terms the faster the jet is flying the heavier the controls feel, thereby restricting the amount of g that can be pulled (or pushed) at higher speeds and hopefully preventing over stressing of the aeroplane.  Often the system has a non-linear rate, so a pull for 4 g will be more than twice that for 2 g (along the lines of drag increasing with speed squared).  

 

An RAF Javelin was lost when the feel system was incorrectly set up: the pilot pulled into a break into the circuit with a stick force that should have generated around 5 1/2 g, it actually generated 11 g and the result was a fatal aluminium shower.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Wouldn't want to be the erk who set up the system on that Javelin. Which reminds, I need to build a Javelin too.

 

45 minutes ago, David H said:

On a related note, the Falcon 50 i fly has a fully-powered flight control system with artificial feel; there's an artificial feel unit for the elevators and one for the ailerons. Ram air is taken in thru two completely different sources and sent to the Air Data Computer, which among other things looks at altitude and total air temperature. The computer output then adjusts an electrically adjusted and a hydraulically adjusted fulcrum (one in the tail, one out at the left wing), which automatically increases or decreases resistance on the yoke, depending on speed.

Very clever engineers, those French.

However, the system can fail, reverting the controls to the low speed, low force, high authority mode. This happened on a Falcon 900 operated by the Greek Government. The pilots over controlled the plane into a pilot induced oscillation, and 7 passengers were killed.

I know this because we own the airplane it happened on.

 

-d-

 

How awful. Clever system, but it's probably safe to say that nothing can be made truly fail safe.

 

37 minutes ago, Magua87 said:

Knowing your preference for Gunze colours. Which paint did you use for the Dark Admiralty Grey? 

 

The wrong one, I think, as it seems too dark for the colour photos in my two TSR2 books. I used the online BS381 colour server and picked Dark Sea Grey based on comparison of the various colour model values listed. I used H331 Dark Sea Grey, but I'll be changing it. H335 Medium Sea Grey not only looks much closer to those photos, but it also is very close to the instrument panel decals that Airfix provided. The pre-painted photoetch is off a country mile, so I'm going for a consistent colour that allows me to use the materials I have without being entirely out to lunch. Absolute accuracy is unattainable and unnecessary, said the lazy modeller.  

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Martian]

That's shaping up very nicely Bill.

 

Martian

[Navy Bird]

Question for you chaps who have been fortunate enough to see the TSR.2 in person - what colour is the front instrument panel coaming? I have some excellent colour shots of the cockpits (lots of grey!) but you can't really see the coaming all that well. In those shots where it does appear to be visible it looks like the same grey as the rest of the cockpit. It certainly doesn't look black, which is what Airfix and CMK would have you do.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

Today was several brainless hours highlighted by dwindling eyesight, photoetch that goes zing, knocked over bottles of decal solvent, subtle cursing...in other words, a typical day in Navy Birdland working on 1:72 scale cockpit stuff. Why do they make it so small??

 

Anything accomplished? Here's a couple of shillings worth - first, the ejection seats, back to back because they won't stand up by themselves, and only posed this way so I could show off the metallic green tubes on the back side. Which are really there, by the way, I got the photos that say so. Once the seats are installed, you'll never see those tubes again.

 

 

Alloy finish on the seat structure (Alclad Dull Aluminum), with black cushions and a dark grey headrest. Harnesses are from the Eduard set, as those in the CMK set are the wrong colour (tan), and look suspiciously like WWII surplus.

 

The instrument panels were fun. I used the CMK resin, but remember that the CMK photoetch (made by Eduard) was pre-painted in the wrong colour. The Airfix decals, however, are in the right colour. So I added the photoetch to the resin and then applied the Airfix decals over the top, with a lot of solvent to make them snuggle down over the etch. Here's the deal, though - I had to cut the Airfix decals into individual sections and add them one at a time, matching instruments up the best I could. The pilot's panel has eight separate decals, whilst I lost count on the navigator's. Here they be at the end of the day:

 

 

A big chunk of the navigator's controls are part of the cockpit tub itself, that's why it looks like there's a spot missing. Here are the seats posed in the cockpit:

 

 

 

The cockpit tub, seats, and instrument panels all had a wash applied made from Tamiya dark grey, Future, water, and a drop of some magic ingredient that escapes me presently. I like this wash, you can use it over matt paint and you don't have to wipe off any residue after it's dry. All the paint molecules seem to line up along the edges, and the clear Future gives a nice gloss layer over everything else - ready for any decals you want to apply. For instance, the side consoles (also several individual pieces each). Whoever thought this up was brilliant - oh yeah, that Barracuda guy. Nice man. A flat varnish was applied when I got tired of working on it.

 

Next I need to look at the destructions to make sure I don't do something out of sequence that I'll regret later on. Ta for now.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. There's more work to do in the pit, but this stuff stays off until the end because I would break it off when masking.

 

PPS. Future wash not suitable for panel lines, which you shouldn't be washing anyways.

[06/24]

Lovely Bill, just lovely.

[billn53]

Very impressive detail work, and in 1/72 even more so. From the photos alone I would have guessed 1/48 at the least. Bravo!

[Martian]

Lovely stuff Bill.

 

Martian

[hairystick]

On 1/9/2018 at 1:27 PM, Navy Bird said:

Question for you chaps who have been fortunate enough to see the TSR.2 in person - what colour is the front instrument panel coaming? I have some excellent colour shots of the cockpits (lots of grey!) but you can't really see the coaming all that well. In those shots where it does appear to be visible it looks like the same grey as the rest of the cockpit. It certainly doesn't look black, which is what Airfix and CMK would have you do.

 

Cheers,

Bill

The photos I took at Cosford of XR220 show a rather dark coaming. Very dark grey and getting quite close to black.

[Bedders]

Gosh - missed the start of this. Now fully up to speed though. Great choice of subject, and that cockpit looks gorgeous...

 

Justin

[giemme]

  Impressive. No need to say more.

 

Ciao

[Max Headroom]

Up to page 3 already?! How have I missed this?

 

Looking forward to the usual Navy Bird magic.

 

Trevor

[CedB]

Beautiful stuff Bill, just beautiful

[Robert]

That cockpit is very impressive

 

Robert

[Seahawk]

Excellent work.  I thought I was obsessive but am sometimes forced to realise that I just don't care about my hobby as much as some do.

 

I conclude that you already have Anthony Thornborough's Aeroguide Special on the TSR-2 (Ad Hoc, 2002), not least because it has such exemplary full-colour coverage of metallic green tubes on the back of the ejection seats.  It shows the instrument panel coaming (as much of it as is visible) to be a grey colour, to my eyes and monitor more of an Ocean Grey shade than the rather bluish mid grey of the rest of the interior.  Date of (colour) photo not stated.  HTH.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Seahawk

[Booty003]

That is a fantastic looking office, the seats are very impressive indeed.

[perdu]

The office looks fabulous, I remember dark, almost black for the cowling too

 

I prefer using Tamiya German grey for these nearly black colours, even used it for the antiscuff panels on my Wessexes

 

It isn't black but gives the look of black where you need it

[Navy Bird]

8 hours ago, hairystick said:

The photos I took at Cosford of XR220 show a rather dark coaming. Very dark grey and getting quite close to black.

 

6 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Excellent work.  I thought I was obsessive but am sometimes forced to realise that I just don't care about my hobby as much as some do.

 

I conclude that you already have Anthony Thornborough's Aeroguide Special on the TSR-2 (Ad Hoc, 2002), not least because it has such exemplary full-colour coverage of metallic green tubes on the back of the ejection seats.  It shows the instrument panel coaming (as much of it as is visible) to be a grey colour, to my eyes and monitor more of an Ocean Grey shade than the rather bluish mid grey of the rest of the interior.  Date of (colour) photo not stated.  HTH.

 

2 hours ago, perdu said:

The office looks fabulous, I remember dark, almost black for the cowling too

 

Thanks mates. The photos I have which show the coaming are all from a vantage point where the photographer is looking through the side panels of the windscreen. This is the best shot I have, found somewhere on the net and posted here under fair use.

 

 

I didn't think it was black, which led me to question the instruction sheets. Looks darker than the photos of the pit. I wonder, though - are the windscreen panels tinted? If so, is this affecting the perception of the colour? @hairystick - any chance you could post the photos you took of the coaming? I'm also interested in any details that CMK might have missed. For example, was there any insulation on top of the coaming to prevent unwanted heat from the sun? What's the HUD look like?

 

The inside of the windscreen framework appears to be the same grey as the cockpit, which is a veritable sea of grey:

 

 

 

The previous two photos show the cockpits as of February 1965, I believe, and should be a pretty good representation of what was used. The same two photos appear in Damien Burke's book, and are not labelled as photos of mock-ups, where other photos specifically are. I'm guessing these are the cockpits on XR219.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I used Gunze H335 Medium Sea Grey for the cockpit colour. Since it seems the coaming was darker, I can use H331 Dark Sea Grey for that pretty easily. That should make a nice contrast.

 

Next up - the gear bays and struts. Light Aircraft Grey or Light Admiralty Grey? I suspect the former, as they don't seem to have any bluish tinge.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. @Seahawk - obsession can be a hobbyhorse at times. Sometimes I think too much. So, right, the book by Thornborough. I don't have that actually (just the ones by Burke and McLelland) and it sounds like I should try to procure a copy. I suspect it's out of print, since I seem to recall that Ad Hob Publications is no longer - the owner passed on I believe. This will mean tackling eBay prices. Always a joy.

[perdu]

Nice shot of MY antenna there Bill, ouch

 

I'd definitely use a dark grey for the coaming, The picture looks quite like the colour of Xtracrylics Dark Sea Grey so I'd go with that shade

 

 

Oh yes

 

Beware the bay, fraught with the danger of seeing too many books you WILL need