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Col.

Small Wars GB

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Would the Portuguese Colonial War in Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea) from 1961 to 1974 be ok? If so, I have a Portuguese Air Force Fiat G.91 jet fighter-bomber used in the Mozambique conflict to enter into the GB.

 

Cheers

 

Jaime

 

 

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20 minutes ago, CliffB said:

A great theme and just what I need to restart my Chaco War mojo - so please sign me up :).

 

Re. definitions, here are my thoughts (based on my experience of setting up the Lesser Built AF GB).

 

The objective is presumably to encourage the repesentation of subjects from conflicts which are comparatively rarely seen on the BritModeller forum.  It's not really about the size of the conflict, or who's involved. This is how the cumbersome 'Lesser Built' title came about for the LBAF GB (it was originally going to be called the Small Air Forces GB, but of course that gave problems with China etc). 

 

It also proved to be easiest to produce a list of exclusions, rather than inclusions.  So for the LBAF GB we excluded Britain, America, Germany, Soviet Union and Japan (IIRC) - anywhere else was fine.

 

For a 'Lesser Built Conflicts' GB, any exclusions should obviously include WWII and Vietnam (both of which are frequently represented on BritModeller).  I guess we would also exclude WW1, Korea and the Gulf Wars (as I sense that they have a reasonable representation).  Beyond that I'm struggling to find any other candidates.  Personally, I would class the Spanish Civil War as being 'Lesser Built' (on BM, at least), so would not like to see it excluded.

 

Just my thoughts :winkgrin:

Cliff

I'm grateful of your thoughts and think taking a lead from your experiences with the LBAF GB is the best way forward. A list of exclusions will be far easier and clearer to produce than any attempt to form an inclusive list of what is eligible. Interesting point about the Gulf Wars as these could easily support a GB of their own if you mean Op Granby and Herrick whereas I feel the Iran/Iraq War is another outwith the focus of many modellers and can be justified within the scope of this GB.

2 minutes ago, jrlx said:

Would the Portuguese Colonial War in Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea) from 1961 to 1974 be ok? If so, I have a Portuguese Air Force Fiat G.91 jet fighter-bomber used in the Mozambique conflict to enter into the GB.

Cheers

Jaime

Yes it is Jamie. We seldom see Portuguese subjects here and those campaigns are certainly almost unheard of so all good.

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Col,

 

I think your list of exclusions is a good idea but as you can see from the previous discussions, it isn't going to be an easy one to define, as you have already alluded to, there are many different views as to what constitutes a lesser war, I'm sure everyone can put forward a convincing argument justify their choice.  Good luck with sorting it out, as I have many lesser war subjects I can make I'll stop stirring the pot.

 

Time to look at what's in the decal bank and the stash to see what I can fit in, plenty of time to change my mind too.

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2 hours ago, Wez said:

Col,

I think your list of exclusions is a good idea but as you can see from the previous discussions, it isn't going to be an easy one to define, as you have already alluded to, there are many different views as to what constitutes a lesser war, I'm sure everyone can put forward a convincing argument justify their choice.  Good luck with sorting it out, as I have many lesser war subjects I can make I'll stop stirring the pot.

Time to look at what's in the decal bank and the stash to see what I can fit in, plenty of time to change my mind too.

By all means please keep stirring this pot. It's the best way to ensure our soup doesn't stick to the bottom or get burnt ;) I'm open-minded to any discussion on the subject.

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Count me in!

 

I have this one on mind and in stash: 72036.jpg

 

I assume Dominican Civil War is obscure enough :D

 

I see problem with "small" have been already nailed, but I will open another can of worms. What is war? I wonder is any combat is good enough, for example, would Morocco's OV-10 Bronco qualify?

 

Quote

Morocco acquired six ex-USMC A-model airframes that were delivered in 1981 after being refurbished by Rockwell in Columbus. It was originally intended that Morocco would get 24 aircraft but political problems lead to the delivery of only 6. It appears that these airplanes never saw a great amount of service and there has been some speculation in recent years of these airplanes ending up elsewhere.

[...]

The aircraft were to be used in the civil war being waged in the south by the Polisariso insurgents. During the operation of the aircraft one crashed and was destroyed, and another made a wheels up landing but was scrapped as repair was not within their capability. With the end of the war the aircraft were used for border and coast patrol, flying out of the Kenitra Air Base. In June of 1991 the OV-10A made their last flight to Meknes air base where they were put into storage.

Source

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Col. said:

By all means please keep stirring this pot. It's the best way to ensure our soup doesn't stick to the bottom or get burnt ;) I'm open-minded to any discussion on the subject.

OK then, I'll keep stirring.

 

I think the major powers when involved in colonial struggles, should be included, so the British in Aden or the NW Frontier would be OK, likewise the Russians in Afghanistan, Georgia or Chechnya or the US in Cuba or Grenada would be acceptable.

 

Conflicts like Vietnam (but not French Indo-China), the Falklands, Korea, WWI & II, the Spanish Civil War are too big for this GB, too many protagonists and bit players to muddy the waters.  That said, if somebody was modelling a major power involved in a lesser conflict I would expect them to justify their choice and provide provenance to match.

 

The hosts of course should have the final deliberation with no argument.

Edited by Wez

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4 hours ago, Botan said:

Count me in!

 

I have this one on mind and in stash: 72036.jpg

 

I assume Dominican Civil War is obscure enough :D

 

I see problem with "small" have been already nailed, but I will open another can of worms. What is war? I wonder is any combat is good enough, for example, would Morocco's OV-10 Bronco qualify?

Source

Both the Dominican Civil War and the Moroccan action against the Polisario insurgency are great examples of what I want this GB to be about :thumbsup: 

4 hours ago, Wez said:

OK then, I'll keep stirring.

 

I think the major powers when involved in colonial struggles, should be included, so the British in Aden or the NW Frontier would be OK, likewise the Russians in Afghanistan, Georgia or Chechnya or the US in Cuba or Grenada would be acceptable.

 

Conflicts like Vietnam (but not French Indo-China), the Falklands, Korea, WWI & II, the Spanish Civil War are too big for this GB, too many protagonists and bit players to muddy the waters.  That said, if somebody was modelling a major power involved in a lesser conflict I would expect them to justify their choice and provide provenance to match.

 

The hosts of course should have the final deliberation with no argument.

That's a good argument for not excluding the major nations but at the same time I'd rather see people model the lesser seen subjects rather than there being a cluster of the usual such as Sea Harriers, F-14s and Soviet MiGs. A Cuban MiG-17 would be fine but a US Navy F-8 is a bit too mainstream for my liking in this context. Same with a Lybian MiG-23 or Su-22 rather than a US Navy F-14 or USAF F-111. This was where I felt the exclusion of the traditional major players could encourage many of us to look beyond our comfort zones. Then again the Russian Civil War and Revolution has plenty potential for uncommon subjects... :hmmm: 

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I like the occasional small scuffle.....I'm in, probably with something 'orrible!  :fight:

 

I hope, if I could find a kit, that something like this would be acceptable:

 

20170621-tank-2.jpg

 

20170621-tank-3.jpg

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I like the occasional small scuffle.....I'm in, probably with something 'orrible!  :fight:

 

I hope, if I could find a kit, that something like this would be acceptable:

 

20170621-tank-2.jpg

 

20170621-tank-3.jpg

 

 

 

 

That's not simply acceptable, that's ideal! Nice one Sgt. :D 

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There is one problem with "colonial" wars and that is that they are generally very asymmetrical, with whatever power involved exploiting air power and vehicles while the local resistance/guerrilla forces generally only rely on light troops with very little support. Think of the many conflicts that involved Britain in the 20th Century, I can build a Hunter operating over Aden or a Vampire active during the Malayan Emergency but I can't build any aircraft or tank from the opposition. Same with many of the conflicts that saw French forces in action over Africa and Indochina. If we make these types not eligible then the number of potential subjects decreases quite a lot. Not a problem for me, I'm happy with building a subject from a lesser known air force, at the same time though this may limit the number of interested parties.

In a sense a lot depends on what we want to focus on: if we focus on the modelling subjects, then clearly leaving out all major powers will force the modellers to look for subjects with less usual markings, sure an interesting exercise. Setting the rules would be easier, just exclude any operation involving the countries we consider as powers in the timeframe of interest.

If we want to focus on lesser known conflicts per se, then the modellers will have to investigate further the conflicts to verify if for example their Hunter actually served in such conflict. Setting the rules would be a bit more difficult, and a list of excluded conflict would be required. How can this list be decided ? Leaving out WW1 and WW2 is easy enough, other conflicts may be a bit more difficult... An interesting example is a comparison between the Falklands War and the Iran-Iraq War. In terms of being a small or a big war, there's no contest: without meaning to disrepect those who fought and died in the Falklands, this was a small affair compared to the Iran-Iraq War (8 years of total war with at least 300,000 victims, battles that saw hundreds of tanks in action, bombing of cities, chemical weapons..). At the same time the Falkland War is very well known in the West while the other war is very little known and this is reflected in the interest shown by modellers, with tens of Sea Harriers alone built for each aircraft from either Iran or Iraq.

My personal view is that such a list should IMHO leave out the conflicts that are most often "reproduced in model form" regardless of size or importance in the real world of the conflict. This sure would affect the notion of which conflict to include or exclude. The Spanish Civil War mentioned above is quite an interesting example, sure it was an important war but how often are aircrafts and tanks from this conflict reproduced as models?

Mind, personally I have no strong feeling towards one or the other approach, I would still be interested and vote for this GB in any case.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The Spanish Civil War mentioned above is quite an interesting example, sure it was an important war but how often are aircrafts and tanks from this conflict reproduced as models?

 

I would say that quite often in comparison to other less known conflicts, at least in 1/72 scale. Even Airfix added such camouflage for Ju-87B or HS-123, ICM have special Spanish boxes for I-15 or SB-2, Czech companies add those pretty often, UM/UMMT and Mirage kits had decals for Soviets AFV's and so on. Still, it didn't make it by GB poll year ago. For sure it is the most known interwar conflict, at least in the West.

Edited by Botan

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I'd love to do a Spanish civil war aircraft.

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Been thinking about this one for a while so after having a look through the forum and taking account of the discussion on here I'd like to make the following proposal:

The spirit of this GB is to cover the smaller and/or lesser known conflicts throughout history. To this end we have an exclusion list of well known events and encourage participants to pick subjects from conflicts that would not normally be given coverage. Anything goes so long as it can be proven to have taken part. Any point in human history is eligible.

Excluded conflicts:-

World War One

Spanish Civil War

World War Two

Korean War

Vietnam War

Falklands War

Gulf War 1 & 2

 

Tell me your thoughts gang.

Edited by Col.

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11 minutes ago, Col. said:

Excluded conflicts:-

World War One

Spanish Civil War

World War Two

Korean War

Vietnam War

Falklands War

Gulf War 1 & 2

Col,

 

That list of modern conflicts is a good list of exclusions and one I support.

 

Going further back in time would due to their scale, the Napoleonic wars warrant exclusion?  I freely admit to being out of my depth with the 19th century and earlier conflicts though.

 

A question Col, how are we defining small wars?  Does their have to be a formal declaration of war or not?  I'm thinking of those conflicts where there may have been some form of colonial policing action for instance.

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3 minutes ago, Wez said:

Col,

That list of modern conflicts is a good list of exclusions and one I support.

Going further back in time would due to their scale, the Napoleonic wars warrant exclusion?  I freely admit to being out of my depth with the 19th century and earlier conflicts though.

A question Col, how are we defining small wars?  Does their have to be a formal declaration of war or not?  I'm thinking of those conflicts where there may have been some form of colonial policing action for instance.

Thank you good sir :) 

I did consider excluding major actions such as your example of the Napoleonic Wars or others such as the American Civil War that occured beyond the previous century but felt they get little coverage in other GBs or even across the whole forum so left them as it may encourage more figures to be entered and even gain some mention of the history surrounding a particular subject choice.

The definition of 'War' I'd like to keep as loose as possible so no formal decleration needs to have been made. Let's call it any armed action from formal 'proper' war through the colonial policing actions you used as an excelent example to the Viking rading parties or Celts and Gauls who battled an expanding Roman Empire.

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12 minutes ago, Col. said:

Thank you good sir :) 

I did consider excluding major actions such as your example of the Napoleonic Wars or others such as the American Civil War that occured beyond the previous century but felt they get little coverage in other GBs or even across the whole forum so left them as it may encourage more figures to be entered and even gain some mention of the history surrounding a particular subject choice.

The definition of 'War' I'd like to keep as loose as possible so no formal decleration needs to have been made. Let's call it any armed action from formal 'proper' war through the colonial policing actions you used as an excelent example to the Viking rading parties or Celts and Gauls who battled an expanding Roman Empire.

 

Fair point, you're right of course by far the majority of modelling on this site covers subjects from 1900 to the present day, excluding earlier wars would exclude some interesting subjects and as you've always said, it's all about those subjects that wouldn't otherwise appear elsewhere.

 

Happy with the definition of war too, I think it widens the subject base immensely!

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2 minutes ago, Wez said:

Fair point, you're right of course by far the majority of modelling on this site covers subjects from 1900 to the present day, excluding earlier wars would exclude some interesting subjects and as you've always said, it's all about those subjects that wouldn't otherwise appear elsewhere.

 

Happy with the definition of war too, I think it widens the subject base immensely!

One thing I'd like this GB to do is increase our knowledge and understanding of the lesser known conflicts throughout history and I'm hoping if a little background information is included within each subject thread this will be the case. So long as we keep away from the politics as I'd rather this didn't degenerate into a small war itself :rolleyes: 

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Just a thought Col, 

I'm pretty sure I understand the basic concept of this GB, however it might be easier to list down a dozen or so 'minor' conflicts first and if a modeller happens to have another idea in mind, just run it through you first? I'll restrict this to Aviation related subjects (sorry it's all I build) however a possible list might include -

 

- The Nomonhan Incident - 1939

- Spanish Civil War - 1936-9

- Berlin Airlift - 1948 (part of the Cold War)

- The Cuban Crisis - 1962

- Dutch East Indies & Indonesia - 1945-63

- French Indochina - 1945-54

- The Malayan Conflict - 1948-60

- Confrontation in Borneo - 1962-66

- Indo-Pakistan Wars - 1965-71

- Afghanistan - 1980-96

- Israel - 1948

- Suez Crisis - 1956

- Six Day War - 1967

- Yom Kippur - 1973

- Iran vs. Iraq Gulf War - 1980-9

- Lebanon - 1982

- Kenya - 1951-5

- Algeria - 1954-62

- Central African wars (incl The Congo) - 1960 - ?

- Rhodesian Bush Wars - 1965-79

- Portugal in Africa - 1959-75

- South African Bush Wars - 1975-96

- French / Spanish in Morocco & Chad

- Latin American Wars - 1955- 95

 

.... Cannot think of anymore?? 

Anyway - this should yield a bunch of exotic subjects that are not often seen through these BM pages. 

Apologies for the rabbling and long list.

 

Cheers.. Dave

 

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6 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Just a thought Col, 

I'm pretty sure I understand the basic concept of this GB, however it might be easier to list down a dozen or so 'minor' conflicts first and if a modeller happens to have another idea in mind, just run it through you first? I'll restrict this to Aviation related subjects (sorry it's all I build) however a possible list might include -

 

- The Nomonhan Incident - 1939

- Spanish Civil War - 1936-9

- Berlin Airlift - 1948 (part of the Cold War)

- The Cuban Crisis - 1962

- Dutch East Indies & Indonesia - 1945-63

- French Indochina - 1945-54

- The Malayan Conflict - 1948-60

- Confrontation in Borneo - 1962-66

- Indo-Pakistan Wars - 1965-71

- Afghanistan - 1980-96

- Israel - 1948

- Suez Crisis - 1956

- Six Day War - 1967

- Yom Kippur - 1973

- Iran vs. Iraq Gulf War - 1980-9

- Lebanon - 1982

- Kenya - 1951-5

- Algeria - 1954-62

- Central African wars (incl The Congo) - 1960 - ?

- Rhodesian Bush Wars - 1965-79

- Portugal in Africa - 1959-75

- South African Bush Wars - 1975-96

- French / Spanish in Morocco & Chad

- Latin American Wars - 1955- 95

 

.... Cannot think of anymore?? 

Anyway - this should yield a bunch of exotic subjects that are not often seen through these BM pages. 

Apologies for the rabbling and long list.

 

Cheers.. Dave

 

One of the reasons I'm not going with an inclusion list is it will quickly get exhaustive and still miss out too many options but I welcome suggestions and you've given us plenty Dave :D Only one I'd miss out is the Spanish Civil War but otherwise all good :thumbsup: 

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23 minutes ago, Col. said:

One of the reasons I'm not going with an inclusion list is it will quickly get exhaustive and still miss out too many options but I welcome suggestions and you've given us plenty Dave :D Only one I'd miss out is the Spanish Civil War but otherwise all good :thumbsup: 

 

I'd contend there's a few in Dave's list that are potentially counter to the intent of the GB but it's good to have the debate. 

 

Whilst the Arab-Israeli wars are localised their impact has been felt globally also, we get a fair number of Israeli subjects on the site, less so Arab subjects.

 

The Berlin Airlift is a part of the Cold War and not sufficiently separate from the totality of that (even though it is a recognisable incident with bounded time lines).

 

The Cuban Crisis could fairly include anything in Cuban service at that time but gets a bit tricky including US stuff, aircraft which flew reconnaissance overflights such as specific RF-8's could be justified but including everything that was placed on alert on the US side could just net us a bevy of the usual cold-war subjects which I believe is what the GB is trying to avoid.

 

I admit, sorting this out is very tricky and I don't have all the answers.  I must say I like the idea of entrants providing some background to their subject choices and their chosen conflict, it requires the individual to put a bit of thought into it.

 

What is certain is that this GB has the potential for some varied and interesting subjects which can't be bad!

Edited by Wez

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1 hour ago, Wez said:

 

I'd contend there's a few in Dave's list that are potentially counter to the intent of the GB but it's good to have the debate. 

 

Whilst the Arab-Israeli wars are localised their impact has been felt globally also, we get a fair number of Israeli subjects on the site, less so Arab subjects.

 

The Berlin Airlift is a part of the Cold War and not sufficiently separate from the totality of that (even though it is a recognisable incident with bounded time lines).

 

The Cuban Crisis could fairly include anything in Cuban service at that time but gets a bit tricky including US stuff, aircraft which flew reconnaissance overflights such as specific RF-8's could be justified but including everything that was placed on alert on the US side could just net us a bevy of the usual cold-war subjects which I believe is what the GB is trying to avoid.

 

I admit, sorting this out is very tricky and I don't have all the answers.  I must say I like the idea of entrants providing some background to their subject choices and their chosen conflict, it requires the individual to put a bit of thought into it.

 

What is certain is that this GB has the potential for some varied and interesting subjects which can't be bad!

Debate is indeed always good :D 

Arab-Israeli wars - they are a complicated set of conflicts with the potential for plenty interesting and uncommon subjects. Yes we always see plenty Israeli subjects but less so the various Arab nations and therefore I'd suggest we leave them in for this reason.

Berlin Airlift - not a war or armed conflict as such so yes a good point to take it out and we will be including it within the scope of a Post War/50's NATO Vs Warpac In Europe GB proposal once the 60's edition is underway so the potential opportunity for it to gain wider coverage exists in the near future.

Cuban Crisis - you've pretty much nailed the problem and solution with this one; anything directly involved in the armed struggle which befell Cuba is fine but nothing else. So anything involved in the Civil War and Revolution, Bay of Pigs, and all the other FBI sponsored activities is good. The Missile Crisis, however, is a tricky one. Was it really an armed action or just a stand-off? If it was the former and can be proved that's cool but otherwise no. So if your RF.8 got shot at by Cuban AAA then both that RF.8 and the AAA gun is in but if not then no. Were we to loosen that definition we could then go on to include anything on the front line during the Cold War.

Let's see if I can give a simple definition. If shots were fired, or arrows or missiles or spears or whatever, by one side at the other then it's in. If not then no.

5 minutes ago, Antoine said:

Interesting...

In that case I'll add your name to the list ;) 

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But you can add mine in ;)

I have no idea what I'll go for - depending on the rules (I haven't read the chat above), I'm tempted to look further back in time than the 20th centuary ...

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4 hours ago, Col. said:

Been thinking about this one for a while so after having a look through the forum and taking account of the discussion on here I'd like to make the following proposal:

The spirit of this GB is to cover the smaller and/or lesser known conflicts throughout history. To this end we have an exclusion list of well known events and encourage participants to pick subjects from conflicts that would not normally be given coverage. Anything goes so long as it can be proven to have taken part. Any point in human history is eligible.

Excluded conflicts:-

World War One

Spanish Civil War

World War Two

Korean War

Vietnam War

Falklands War

Gulf War 1 & 2

 

Tell me your thoughts gang.

This looks good to me Col.  Easy to understand and something that we can all work with :).

Cliff

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