Bristol Bombay - Can anyone ID these aircraft & their colours?

[Rabbit Leader]

Just wondering if anyone knows the serials, location and probable date of these Bristol Bombay's featured in the below 216 Squadron YouTube video?

I'd also be keen to hear your thoughts as to the most likely colours that you think these aircraft were painted.

I'm inclined to think that these images were taken circa 1940, so could have possibly still been painted in Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky(?) undersurfaces, however as with every B&W photo's / video's its always too hard to tell.

All thoughts and comments appreciated...  

 

Cheers.. Dave  

 

 

 

 

[Mr T]

That is a very interesting piece of video. Looking at the roundels and codes, I would guess it would be soon after the start of the War as they are 216's wartime codes. There are no fin  flashes and the mix of roundels suggest late 1939ish. The upper surfaces are probably TLS  but the light coloured undersurfaces, I am not sure about. Bristol were painting Blenheims in a sky like colour before it came into general use, so could be. 

Never seen those shots before, so a great find. A distinct possibility for the Valom kit. 

[sprue]

This is very interesting and it spurred me to look up Bomber Squadrons by Philip Moyes. According to him 216 were based at Heliopolis, Egypt between 1925 and 1942. Bombays being received between October 1939 until 1942 when they re-equipped with Hudsons.

On page 211 there is a photograph of Bombay L5857 SH-C dated circa May 1941. Markings and paint scheme in the photograph seem very similar to the film. Interestingly the paint work in the film looks fresh.

Personaly I think the film is earlier as according to Michael Bowyer, Bombing Colours by May 1941 the Bombays were being used for night raids in the Western Desert their under surfaces having been hastily painted night.

Also I note that the aircraft in the film have no fin stripes. Again according to Bowyer they weren't applied until after the fighting began around June 1940. In Bowyers book there is a photograph of a 216 machine N-SH circa June 1940 without fin stripes. He suggests the colours were Dark Earth Dark Green and Sky under surfaces. Code letters 4 ft Medium Grey.

I'm sure the experts will be along soon to give us chapter and verse.

[stevehnz]

My instinct on seeing the colour contrast especially around 23-28 seconds was Dark Earth/ Light Earth or similar rather than TLS but we all know how subjective interpretations on monochrome images can be.

steve.

[modelldoc]

Found in Combat Codes by Flintham and Thomas on page 124 the SH-C L5857 used from 10.39 to 6.43 in the MedME and on page 131 the SH-F L5820 at Khartoum, both in service with the 216 Squadron.

 

The comment says that the placement of the unit and aircraft letters aft of the roundel was unusual though the norm on this type.

 

modelldoc

[Rabbit Leader]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

My instinct on seeing the colour contrast especially around 23-28 seconds was Dark Earth/ Light Earth or similar rather than TLS but we all know how subjective interpretations on monochrome images can be.

steve.

First instincts should always be followed Steve, so perhaps SH:B is being filmed just after being re-painted in 'Desert Colours' - in similar vein to 14 & 47 Sqd's Wellesley's?

The B Type fuselage roundel as opposed to the A type on the other aircraft could also be pointing to a re-painted scheme??

Either way, it's all very intriguing and equally frustrating at the same time.

 

Cheers.. Dave   

    

[tonyot]

Hiya Dave,

              Well they look to be DE/DG to me,.... most likely with silver undersides. The Wellesley`s and Blenheim`s in Middle East Command had their experimental/temporary desert scheme ( where Light Stone covered Dark Green areas) by 1939,.... it was very short lived and by the time war erupted in the region in 1940 camouflage had reverted to DE/DG.

 

Cheers

          Tony

 

PS,... This is the DE/DG scheme/pattern which helps compare the colours on other photos.

 

This one from 216 Sqn wears the DE/DG scheme but after the undersides have been repainted,.....maybe Sky,....but probably light blue;

Edited December 27, 2017 by tonyot

[Rabbit Leader]

7 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Hiya Dave,

              Well they look to be DE/DG to me,.... most likely with silver undersides.

 

Cheers

          Tony

Silver undersides would make more sence than Sky (for this time period) I would think.

Thanks for chipping in Tony, I'd be most keen to hear or see what you may be able to dig up on these early 216 Sqaudron Bombay's.

 

Cheers... Dave  

[tonyot]

21 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Silver undersides would make more sence than Sky (for this time period) I would think.

Thanks for chipping in Tony, I'd be most keen to hear or see what you may be able to dig up on these early 216 Sqaudron Bombay's.

 

Cheers... Dave  

No worries mate,..... yes I`ll see if I can find anything else.

 

Some early machines were silver with B Type roundels;

Wearing the same scheme, this is LS5816,....sorry about the sie of the pic;

 

 

This is an early silver one straight off the line;

 

A view of the other side of the aircraft in the earlier post;

 

 

This one has black undersides and the name `BISHOPSGATE' under the cockpit,....it is seen emplaning early SAS troops for a parachute jump. The first SAS op was launched from Bombay`s via parachute;

 

This one seen in Greece has black undersides too,...... not sure of the upper surfaces,..probably DE/DG to the opposite pattern......but could be desert DE/MS, unlikely though.

 

 

L5808 wears the desert camouflage DE/MS with Azure Blue undersides,... you can see the previous DG areas are now the lighter colour of the scheme;

 

If I find out any more re serials etc I`ll let you know mate, the on line search facility at the National Archives at Kew might be an idea,..... the unit ORB`s can usually be obtained for download for under £5 and usually include serial/code tie ins.

 

Cheers

          Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by tonyot

[Rabbit Leader]

Wow - truly appreciate the extensive photo coverage there Tony.. many thanks.  

The idea to download the 216 Squadron ORB also sounds like a great idea. I'll look into it a little later.

 

Now perhaps this is all starting to make a little sence. It would appear (as above) that these Bombay's were painted silver with large black underwing serials.  

At approx 0:48 in the video above, a camouflaged Bombay taxies out to reveal that these large underside serials have been painted out.

I would 'assume' (?) that the underside silver was retained once the top DE/DG camouflage was applied, with these serials repainted in fresh paint or another colour altogether?

 

Still a long way from confirming any colours, however it seems to tie in with what we know and possibly expect.

 

Cheers.. Dave    

 

[tonyot]

You`re correct Dave,..... you can see the under wing serials painted out on quite a few early war Bombay`s. 

 

This cockpit shot might be useful too,

 

Cheers

        Tony

[Rabbit Leader]

Whilst we are all talking Bombay's, I just thought I'd share this photograph which appears in the No. 216 Squadron article within SAM Vol 8 No. 5 - Feb 1986.

This is Bombay SH:F, L5820 which is captioned as being taken at Khartoum, 1940. Of interest is the deleted underwing serials and the unconfirmed scheme which I am warming too - Dark Green, Dark Earth over Silver (?). Also note the lack of tropical filters under the engine cowls, which may also pin this scheme down to a typical time period (not sure?).

 

Cheers.. Dave

 

   

[mhaselden]

No fin flash or yellow surround to the fuselage roundel so it's pre- May 1940.

[Rabbit Leader]

4 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

No fin flash or yellow surround to the fuselage roundel so it's pre- May 1940.

Too true - good get!

Cheers.. Dave

[stevehnz]

I think Tony is right Dave, a couple of the photos he has put up are the same as in the AE article & look very like the footage I referred to so I'd go with DG/DE over ???

Steve.

[ClaudioN]

The film shows some variety in markings. SH B with B-type (red-blue) fuselage roundels is filmed alongside SHL with A-type (red-white-blue) fuselage roundels, but further on there is an Anson with A1-type (red-white-blue-yellow) fuselage roundels...!

I agree with the feeling that the date may be "around 1940", but do not venture any further.

 

Bombays with black undersides are an interesting variation. I seem to recall that in the early stages of WW II they were also used as night bombers, which might explain the finish.

 

Claudio

[JWM]

Hi,

18 hours ago, tonyot said:

This one has black undersides and the name `BISHOPSGATE' under the cockpit,....it is seen emplaning early SAS troops for a parachute jump. The first SAS op was launched from Bombay`s via parachute;

The "bishopsgate" has wavy colour demercation line on bottom what makes her attractive. Pity that no number, neither codes are known. Please note that she still has bomb racks. So she plays both bomber and transport role

J-W

 

[JWM]

In addition I have found on Russian web page

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft26337.htm

Which is said to be taken in North Africa El-Hanka in 1942 - I think there is A (red? grey?) and roundel C1.  The bomb racks are on position! I thougt that in 1942 Bombays were only used as transport or ambulnces

Regards

J-W

[ClaudioN]

'BISHOPSGATE' appears to be coded 'A'.

PICTURES OF THE SPECIAL AIR SERVICE: PARATROOPS IN TRAINING. © IWM (E 6399)IWM Non Commercial Licence

 

SAS parachute training at Kabrit.

 

Claudio

[JWM]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

'BISHOPSGATE' appears to be coded 'A'.

Or it is another one with black undersides...

Cheers

J-W

[tonyot]

5 hours ago, JWM said:

In addition I have found on Russian web page

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft26337.htm

Which is said to be taken in North Africa El-Hanka in 1942 - I think there is A (red? grey?) and roundel C1.  The bomb racks are on position! I thougt that in 1942 Bombays were only used as transport or ambulnces

Regards

J-W

This photo was taken just before 216 Sqn handed its remaining Bombay`s over to No.1 Australian Air Ambulance Unit J-W, I would go with red for the rear fuselage code. Also note the sun shade above the nose gun position,.....probably painted on! The bomb racks are fitted because 216 Sqn used to ferry bombs up to the fighter bomber/light bomber units operating `up the blue' in the Western Desert,.... much easier and safer to carry them in this manner.

 

This was one of the pics that I used as reference for my own Bombay model,

 

Cheers

          Tony

Edited December 29, 2017 by tonyot

[ClaudioN]

7 hours ago, JWM said:

Or it is another one with black undersides...

Cheers

J-W

Yes, quite possible.

'BISHOPSGATE' is IWM ref. no. E 6404. I looked around that number and found a number of pictures showing SAS parachute training at Kabrit (starting around IWM ref. no. E 6380, though not all numbers in between are there).

'A' is in that lot as IWM ref. no. E 6399, that shows ground training. It may be the same aircraft (my first thought) or another one also at Kabrit.

 

Best regards

Claudio

[JWM]

There are  interesting web pages on ex-216 Squadron  Bombays, used by RAAF ambulance unit mentioned by Tony.

I am sure that some of BM users known them very well, but for any case they are here:

http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/invboard/index.php?s=e5ab259a0d1a7de835a5a9680cfbaf4f&showtopic=2024&st=0&#entry13328

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/bombay.htm

There are quoted serials, however not attributed (besides "D") to individual letters in 216 Sq.

Cheers

J-W

 

 

 

[GrahamB]

Are we sure that black is the underside colour in some of the photos above (especially that last one of Bishopsgate)?  To me the tone looks just lighter the the dark roundel blue. Perhaps Dark Mediterranean Blue?

Edited December 30, 2017 by GrahamB
clarification

[tonyot]

11 hours ago, GrahamB said:

Are we sure that black is the underside colour in some of the photos above (especially that last one of Bishopsgate)?  To me the tone looks just lighter the the dark roundel blue. Perhaps Dark Mediterranean Blue?

The undersides look like weathered Night to me,....a blue black colour. Remember that the colour would probably have been applied quite thinly and the reflected sunshine from the desert surface would also have faded it further,.....while the undersides, being closer to the ground and in more shade has remained darker. Plus the fact that they were being used as night bombers as well as in the transport role,...... I think that Dark Med. Blue may have been added later when the desert scheme was applied.

 

Cheers

          Tony