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Lord Riot

RAF Sabre F.4

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On 2/12/2017 at 6:22 PM, Lord Riot said:

Were any XB serialled Sabres silver underneath, or all that awful (imo) 'PRU blue'?

My understanding is that the two UK-based Fighter Command squadrons (nos. 66 and 92) had silver undersides. RAF Germany machines had PRU Blue undersides.

 

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Just now, ClaudioN said:

My understanding is that the two UK-based Fighter Command squadrons (nos. 66 and 92) had silver undersides. RAF Germany machines had PRU Blue undersides.

 

Correct. The UK ones were for Fighter Command, whereas the RAFG ones were purchased using MAP funds for NATO-tasked fighter-bombers, hence the different-coloured undersides.

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That was the situation in general. When Sabres started being withdrawn from Germany though a number of aicrafts with PRU Blue undersurfaces found their way into UK based Fighter Command units, like the ones mentioned above in the thread

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I’m going to do XD727, 92 Sqn, with silver undersides. Once I finish the Canberra! 

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Very interesting thread on the RAF Sabres I am building one at the moment I may go for the one in the picture XB542/H of 66 Sqn. Could anyone please tell me the colour of the tail code Z.

 

Kind Regards

Craig

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Looking at a black and white photo (with all the hazards that presents), I wan't to say blue outlined in white but it could be red with a white outline (I've always felt blue was right), I think that assumption was based on the examples from Modeldecal 97.

 

It's certainly an interesting subject with the silver undersides following the standard PRU Blue demarcation.

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According to Roger Lindsay's Cold War Shield Vol 2 (p.268), the codes on 66 Sq Sabres were "red or blue, finely outlined in white, for A and B Flights respectively".  Which helps you not one jot.  He confirms XB542 as "Z" and the anomalous colour/demarcation.

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Photos seem to indicate a tonal similarity between codes on A and B Flight 66 Sqn aircraft. Tone also seems to be similar to the dark blue in the fin flash. Since 92 Sqn used yellow on both A and B Flight codes for its Sabres, I think there is enough precedent to say that 66 used blue for all.

 

2ATAF generally differed in this, with one colour for A and one for B, but in those cases the tonal difference is easily differentiated.

 

It wouldn't be daft to think that 92 used yellow with a dark blue outline and 66 the reverse....

Edited by Sabrejet

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For what it's worth Gentlemen, I have just scanned my copy of MD 97 into the mac to get a better look at the Squadron codes, as published, in better detail.

 

66 Squadron's codes are Blue with a thin White outline and 92 Squadron's codes are Yellow with a thin Black outline.

 

I know that the late Dick Ward was quite meticulous about such details and used to consult such as Roger Lindsay and others to ensure accuracy.

 

HTH

 

Dennis

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24 minutes ago, typhoon1 said:

Thank you all for your help on colour of the 66 Sqn tail code.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

Craig

Actually thank you, I've been able to look at a bigger picture of the aircraft since you asked the question and I can see it had the hard-wing, I always thought it was slatted.  This means it will be easier for me to realise in either 1/72nd or 1/48th!

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This has been a rather interesting thread for me, as I'm doing a Sabre F.4 in 1/32 scale, using a modified Hasegawa F-86F-40 kit. The modifications are actually the easy part, simply chop, cut, rebuild, however what I haven't figured out yet is how I'm going to do the markings. I certainly do not want to mask off and paint roundels, fin flashes, etc.

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31 minutes ago, silverkite211 said:

This has been a rather interesting thread for me, as I'm doing a Sabre F.4 in 1/32 scale, using a modified Hasegawa F-86F-40 kit. The modifications are actually the easy part, simply chop, cut, rebuild, however what I haven't figured out yet is how I'm going to do the markings. I certainly do not want to mask off and paint roundels, fin flashes, etc.

Did this myself many moons ago: if I recall Modeldecal did RAF serial numbers suitable for 1/32 but I dare say others do too. Mine was 112 Sqn with 6-3 wing and sharkmouth was done with masking, In that scale it was reasonably simple.

 

Have you decided on a colour scheme?

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1 hour ago, silverkite211 said:

This has been a rather interesting thread for me, as I'm doing a Sabre F.4 in 1/32 scale, using a modified Hasegawa F-86F-40 kit. The modifications are actually the easy part, simply chop, cut, rebuild, however what I haven't figured out yet is how I'm going to do the markings. I certainly do not want to mask off and paint roundels, fin flashes, etc.

 

IIRC RAF Sabres had relatively unusual sizes for roundels and codes. Personally in 1/32 I would consider painting the roundels and printing codes on a laser or inkjet printer (I prefer the former but the latter is also fine. Squadron markings are a different story and so are the individual letters... some units have relatively simple markings that can be made with masks (66 Sqn for example), other squadrons had way more elaborate markings. Individual letters are easy enough if in a single colour, otherwise it may be hard to get generic 1/32 sheets with this kind of letters

I'm not sure if there's any decal sheet for RAF Sabres in this scale, however the Italeri rebox of the Kinetic kit came with RAF markings for 112 Sqn. Don't know how accurate these are but it may be a solution. If you can't find the sheet from modellers who built the kit in different markings, I believe Italeri can sell the decal sheet to you as a replacement part

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Silverkite211,  I have the Italeri/Kinetic 1/32 decal sheet for RAF Sabre XB917.   You can have it for a small sum.   PM me !!

 

Tony

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I was not aware that Italeri did what you say about a 1/32 scale Sabre, Giorgio N, that may be a solution. I did a 112 Sqn Sabre in 1/48 scale years ago, it's hanging from the celiing of my great-nephew's bedroom now.

 

I think that I would like to do the scheme that uses PRU Blue on the underside, as much as anything because silver shows any flaws in the finish. A 92 Sqn machine would be rather nice, however I don't know how I'd replicate the squadron crest on the nose.

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5 hours ago, silverkite211 said:

I was not aware that Italeri did what you say about a 1/32 scale Sabre, Giorgio N, that may be a solution. I did a 112 Sqn Sabre in 1/48 scale years ago, it's hanging from the celiing of my great-nephew's bedroom now.

 

I think that I would like to do the scheme that uses PRU Blue on the underside, as much as anything because silver shows any flaws in the finish. A 92 Sqn machine would be rather nice, however I don't know how I'd replicate the squadron crest on the nose.

 

I just looked at the Italeri decals and they are a bit of a mess for the 112 Sqn machine (the other options, strangely seem to be OK): the serial number fonts are incorrect (stand out a mile on an RAF Sabre), the tail code letter is too small and the blue in the roundels looks too bright. I can do a redux of the main issues later if required.

 

I'd still take up Tony's offer and do an Italian Sabre though!

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I kind of have my heart set on a Royal Air Force Sabre. What about the possibility of using markings from something else, say a Hunter?

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As promised, a few bits showing why the 1/32 Italeri 112 Sqn decals are only fit for the bin:

 

Serial number font is incorrect: '1' should have no top to it (serif?) and the 'B' should be rounded (photos RAF Museum, John Oxenford, Ted Roberts, Roger Mansfield):

 

1

 

Ditto on the wings:

 

2

 

Code letter just looks wrong but not as small as I'd thought:

 

5

 

Main bit for me (and the main bit of the scheme) is the sharkmouth scheme: for 112 Sqn Sabres, the colours should be red outline to mouth, white teeth, black infill. Eyes should be white with red outline and red pupil. The kit has the mouth colours reversed:

 

3 Ted Roberts 1

 

When the aircraft were first painted, the white (teeth & eye) and red bits (pupil, mouth outline and later, eye outline) were done first, with the black infill painted at a later date (and sometimes a black pupil). So on these Sabres the infill was in effect the underside PRU blue colour, and any stencils that were in that area also appeared in the infill, as below:

 

4

 

I'd still go for the 112 Sqn scheme: in the Hyperscale colour image above the roundels look about OK so maybe they are usable after all?

 

Edited by Sabrejet

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It's very annoying to see all these errors in the decal sheet, guess the best solution would have at least someone who can print the codes using the right font.

BTW, I have memories of other kits that got the 112 Sqn sharkmouth wrong, can't remember which ones.

I checked the Italian markings just out of curiosity and these are better. However the roundels IMHO don't have the right proportions (the inner green circle should be slightly bigger) and the unit marking looks too big. Tauromodel has a number of sheets with roundels, codes, stencils and other bits to make pretty much every Sabre in Italian service. Unfortunately Tauromodel policy is to offer all these bits on separate decal sheets so that the modeller interested in the Sabre has to buy 3 or 4 sheets and is then left with all that is needed for a Tornado and an Mb-326 and so on...

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Nice Sabre Pat, I take it that's the Airfix kit?

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Just now, Wez said:

Nice Sabre Pat, I take it that's the Airfix kit?

Indeed it is Wez - really nice little kit. Done a few years ago now - I will de-bucket the photos and post the RFI in due course.

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