warhawk Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 (edited) Hello, I am keen on building this particular machine - an Mk.XVI, RK840 of 322 Squadron RAF (Dutch). So far, all I have are decal instructions (which state that the appearance, i.e. the profile below, is a probable reconstruction), (img source: Wings Palette) And this CMR kit review at Hyperscale with a bit of machine's history. I would like to ask You for help on these two querries: Are there any period photos to confirm this profile and the decal instructions? Could the accurate shade of blue color used on the spinner be confirmed? Thanks in advance. Aleksandar Edited March 3, 2023 by warhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 (edited) I have a feeling I've answered this question before- it seems awfully familiar. (Ah yes, here's the previous discussion.) It is very unlikely that RK840 is the correct serial number. I did find a photo (on Pinterest) of the nose, showing the parrot and that it is a low-back, but while captioned RK840, there is no visible evidence of the serial in the photo (there is 'M' under the spinner). In other words, the "real" RK840 was apparently 'M', and may have even carried similar nose art, but since it was written off in January '45, it almost certainly would have been a traditional "high-back" XVI. (Low-backs didn't start getting delivered until about Feb, and didn't go into squadron service until March at the earliest.) EDIT: You can see the photo I refer to near the bottom of this page. That page also says that the official badge, featuring the parrot, showed up around February- but this doesn't mean that such nose art couldn't have been featured already. Edited December 1, 2017 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 That photograph was obviously not taken in winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 10 hours ago, gingerbob said: In other words, the "real" RK840 was apparently 'M', and may have even carried similar nose art, but since it was written off in January '45, it almost certainly would have been a traditional "high-back" XVI. (Low-backs didn't start getting delivered until about Feb, and didn't go into squadron service until March at the earliest.) Thanks for the links and explanation. Could we make a "guess-timate" of the production block this bubble-top from the photo was part of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, warhawk said: Could we make a "guess-timate" of the production block this bubble-top from the photo was part of? Well, I tried. Now, bear in mind that this is based on the evidence I have been able to accumulate, and might involve a certain amount of deduction. So don't take it as gospel! In terms of 322 Squadron specifically, I've just done a bit of internet searching- I haven't consulted any ORBs or other such records. The translated site that I linked to above says that TD137 (a low-back, per photos) was chosen by Squadron Leader van der Stok. This aircraft was delivered to (or "assigned" to) a Maintenance Unit on 15 March, and came to 322 Squadron on 5 April, along with seven other aircraft! (They'd lost four on 1 April, and several others in the last few days of March.) It is something of a pattern that the first low-back to arrive at a squadron is "taken" by either the squadron commander or another leader. TD137 is also the newest (by date to MU) of the aircraft given to 322 on that date. The website refers to it in one place as 'C for Charlie', though the two photos don't appear to show an individual letter, so perhaps they were taken when the aircraft arrived as a novelty? One shot does show the inverted triangle that I assume is after the Dutch insignia, below the windscreen. Note that the photo we talked about before of 'M', with the parrot, says that it is the aircraft of another pilot. So perhaps we can eliminate TD137, but assume that 'M' would have come to the squadron later? (Note: there is a Flevo decal sheet that shows TD131 as a low-back, individual letter 'F'. This one came to squadron 5/4 also (to MU 2/3), but crashed 8/5. I can't confirm that it was a low-back, but it is certainly possible.) TB997 (MU 7/3) arrived 12 April, but written off on the 17th. Five aircraft came on 26 April (the next replacements I can spot): TD283 is pictured in one of Wojtek Matusiak's books, and is a high-back (to MU 17/3) TD232 (MU 29/3) was passed on to 127 Squadron only a month later, so I'm going to eliminate that on a hunch! TD237 (MU 22/3) confirmed low back, later to Belgium, with some interesting quirks (FlyPast thread)! TD322 (MU 5/4) considering the serial, this might be a candidate to receive the parrot nose art? OOH! per this website (table) was 'M'! TD369 (MU 5/4) TD113 came from 66 Squadron 30 April (MU 1/3) TD247 (MU 4/4) per a profile (as 'F') was a low-back (unconfirmed). Joined Squadron 17 May, accident 7 July, eventually written off. TD254 (MU 12/3) joined 24 May, but is a high back. Sorry to drown you in data, but so far my money (as if I had any) is on TD322. Edited December 2, 2017 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari Lumppio Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Hallo! Of RV Spitfire and the Dutch 322 sqn. I remembered an article having one photo more. Wings of Fame Vol 15 (1999) has article of 322 sqn by Tieme Festner and it includes one aerial photo of four 322 sqn Spitfires. The caption is: "This formation of No. 322 Sqn Spitfire Mk XVI was captured on film by a No. 320 Sqn Mitchell, en route to France in February 1945. The lead aircraft, a late-production Mk XVI with a teardrop canopy, was flown by No, 322's CO, Sqn Ldr Bob van der Stok. Though its '3W' code is visible, it appears to lack an individual code." (emphasis mine, KLu). Edit Noticed only now the gingerbob edited reply above. If TD137 came to the unit only April 1045, the quoted caption is suspect. The part of lacking individual code still stands, though. The RV Spitfire of the mentioned photo might be TD137. Gingerbob linked above page (http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/birds/spitfire/dutch.htm) which has photo of RV Spitifire captioned "Spitfire LF Mk XVI, TD137, de persoonlijk kist van Bob van der Stok". The homesite has also list of Dutch Spitfires (edit post war only!): http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/birds/spitfire/registraties.htm. Main page: http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/birds/spitfire/home.htm. Hope this is use for some one, Kari Disclaimer: any odd language hiccup I blame on reading glasses not worn. Edited December 2, 2017 by Kari Lumppio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Thank You, Kari, for the detailed explanation. Your explanation firmly puts it into the TDxxx range, which is more than enough to reduce the mistake. Also, the photo gingerbob shared clearly shows the "'Polly Gray'" emblem and (probbably) a dark blue spinner - two reasons I got interested in this machine in the first place. Edited December 2, 2017 by warhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Oh, meant to say that the spinner could well be black, to my eye. But it's only a black & white photo, so... (note that the backplate is still light- quite possibly lingering Sky. This is not unusual when the main spinner was repainted.) Also, while I obviously shall have to track down that formation photo, I question the caption's claim of February. Edited December 2, 2017 by gingerbob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 TD137 was only delivered to the RAF in March 1945, according to Spitfire the History - and this is consistent with all its adjacent and near-adjacent serials. I have seen other examples of a unit commander's aircraft being without an individual code, but not many. However, M was often or even usually (not always) the Flight Commander of B Flight. Which may or may not be of any help here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 Hello, sorry for raising an old topic. I found this picture of aircraft coded "3W-M", but lacking the dutch insignia and the parrot emblem on the fuselage. Could this have been taken prior addition of those, or maybe it is a completely different aircraft (even after VE day)? img source: Spitfire Mk XVI of No.322 Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Well whaddya know- TD322! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 One more (and hopefully last) question: What type of roundels would be appropriate for this machine for both sides of the wing (upper and lower)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just found this site if it’s of use. http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=572:supermarine-spitfire-mk-xvie-uk&catid=96&lang=en&Itemid=558&showall=1&limitstart= Trevor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Thomas Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 On 19/02/2018 at 6:52 PM, gingerbob said: Well whaddya know- TD322! Thank you. Nice one Bob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 @Max Headroom: Thank You for the link. However, I do have doubts about this drawing of a bubble-top Mk.XVI, which features Sky fuselage band and spinner (which were highly unlikely for Mk.XVIs serving towards the end of the war) To me, it looks that the artist drew a standard spitfire first (RK892), then quickly adapted these drawings to a Mk.XVI by changing only the canopy and the codes. Regards, Aleksandar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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