Troy Smith Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 found while looking for something else, there has been discussion on this before. from the markings etc either IIb or Vb, this shows the roll of patches, and application, and the rubber cannon covering being rolled on. From the markings this late 41 or early 42, so showing the supply of specific rolls of self adhesive patches. this film is before it in sequence, (same plane, W, which has a Wing Commander pennant ) and shows the rearming sequence. the start shows YT codes Spitfires which is 65 Sq, so someone, maybe @gingerbob could pin down the pilot? cheers 8 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Interesting videos Troy, thanks for posting. I was particularly interested to see the roll of gun patches and will now make sure they're all the same size! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Thanks Troy - I was amazed at just how big the patches are in 'real life' - priceless bit of archive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Great finds Troy, thanks for sharing ! Both videos are very interesting, this is the first time I see the roll of patches. The protection on the 20mm gun barrel is also interesting, it's a detail that is rarely seen on models. The rearming video shows once again how every step in preparation for a mission was performed accoding to well developed procedures, using materials specifically prepared to work with this procedure (loved the roll of flannelettes for cleaning the barrels). Both videos go to show that in the end in wartime things were done as properly as possible to guarantee the efficiency of the fighting force and that proper maintenance was part of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Never seen that film, absolutely brilliant! Many, many thanks for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rs2man Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Just a minor point - from my understanding of RAF rank pennants , that's actually a Group Captain's pennant . It has one thick red stripe in the centre , whereas a Wing Commander's pennant has two narrow stripes . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Troy Smith said: from the markings etc either IIb or Vb, From the markings this late 41 or early 42, so showing the supply of specific rolls of self adhesive patches. this film is before it in sequence, (same plane, W, which has a Wing Commander pennant ) and shows the rearming sequence. the start shows YT codes Spitfires which is 65 Sq, so someone, maybe @gingerbob could pin down the pilot? Thanks Troy, but not obviously. Note that (I think) it is a Group Captain's pennant, one bar vs. two [whoops, rs2man snuck in there while I was composing]. Perhaps this aircraft belongs to a Station Flight? I'd say it is a Vb. It has the hand-turning hole in the starboard cowling, which would be found on a Mk.I but not a Mk.II, and so may point to it being a Supermarine airframe? The fuselage roundel proportions and location might be a further clue, but I can't keep them straight and I'm not entirely convinced that it is a reliable indication. It also has the later oil cooler, not the Mk.II type. Interesting that it has a "Mk.II type" Rotol prop, which doesn't prove anything in my mind. 65 Squadron got Vbs somewhere around 6 October '41 (only briefly with IIbs and perhaps only to get introduced to the cannon armament, pending the V). bob Edited November 28, 2017 by gingerbob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xffw45343tg Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Thanks Troy - brought some purpose to my lunch break! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 4 hours ago, BIG X said: Thanks Troy - I was amazed at just how big the patches are in 'real life' - priceless bit of archive Wow- so much for the 'doped patches' school of thought! Looked like the WW2 equivalent of duct tape! The 20mm cannon muzzle cover was very interesting, as well. Yes, thanks Troy for sharing the videos! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 1 minute ago, 72modeler said: so much for the 'doped patches' school of thought! Looked like the WW2 equivalent of duct tape! I think that doped patches were used initially, bear in mind the RAF was noted for lack of gunnery training, and in the pre and phoney war era you get very neatly doped on patches in camo colours, as they didn't get blasted off on a regular basis (I'm thinking Hurricanes here) I guess red came about as red oxide was a common fabric primers, and it has advantage of a fast check of 'guns loaded' Other colours have been noted for patches as well.(so doped on?) Given the faff of doing the doped on patches (and getting the remains off) , some must have had the idea of using tape, and then this became the standard, as can be seen in the film it is an neat and effective solution, though when this 'standard' came in is "the question" Maybe there are some noted in the National Archive on this. Not time at the mo to do some archive BoB picture scouring. cheers T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Troy Smith said: I think that doped patches were used initially, bear in mind the RAF was noted for lack of gunnery training, and in the pre and phoney war era you get very neatly doped on patches in camo colours, as they didn't get blasted off on a regular basis (I'm thinking Hurricanes here) July 1940, but this is the C/O's plane. Still very neatly done. doped on patch, singlepiece famous shot of a 402 Sq IIb, note the patches over the gun ports, and the projecting outer guns muzzles. Easy to do if using the self adhesive patches in the film. time to riad @Etiennedup flickr and example of other than red (roundel blue?) I presume doped on? Spitfire boneyard. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr good shot showing the colour of the cannon barrel rubber cover RCAF Spitfire V, 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr another of the cannon barrel cover. RCAF Spitfire V 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr note patches (paper?) over the spent shell ports underwing RCAF Spitfire Mk V, 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr as these are all of the same Sq azure blue patches Spitfire Vb...............SAAF by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr early 1941 Spitfire II April 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr old thread on gun ports http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34823-spitfire-gun-port-covers/ a final wild card, Spit Va in the US for testing Spitfire Mk V in the States, 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr Quote The Mk. VA was one of the few Spitfires supplied to the United States for evaluation. By request of gen. Arnold, two production Spitfires Mk.V’s, R7347 and W3119 were shipped to the United States in late summer of 1941. The aircraft were tested at NACA Langley in November-December 1941. W3119 was later transferred to Wright Field Dayton for comparative trials.. Here we see a Lockeed P-38 Lightning and Spitfire No. W3119 sitting nose to nose on the ground at Lockheed Air Terminal in Burbank, California 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Great videos, Troy. Thanks for sharing. The square self-adhesive patches look rather similar to the patches applied to Buffalos in the Far East which were, somewhat unusually, aligned to look like a diamond when viewed from head-on. You can just make out the patch over the port wing gun in the image below: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Interesting stuff. I found the video below which shows a Spit being re-armed, in a nice high resolution. A couple of things I noted: - the cordite streaking coming back from the gun ports (which on a model would get called unrealistic!) - The appearance of the patches around the gun ports - open but very neat with no sign of torn fabric, yet with the colour of the patches clearly visible.. Lastly, am I imagining things or did I read once that during the BoB the ground crews developed a way of re-arming using only the under wing panels? No sign of that approach in these films. regards, Jason 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 42 minutes ago, JasonC said: Lastly, am I imagining things or did I read once that during the BoB the ground crews developed a way of re-arming using only the under wing panels? No sign of that approach in these films. It's in one of the 'Spitfire At War' books, I believe. It may be me imagining stuff, but I thought it was mentioned in one of the videos but I'm damned if I can find it now! John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 36 minutes ago, johnd said: It's in one of the 'Spitfire At War' books, I believe. It's in the first volume of 'Spitfire At War' in a chapter called 'Feeding the Guns'. The technique involved using a piece of canvas to pull the first round of the belt through the breech. This obviated the need to remove the top panels. John. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I wasn't imagining it: rearming from below is shown in the second video posted by Troy in this thread . John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 (edited) 'this film is before it in sequence, (same plane, W, which has a Wing Commander pennant (Group Captain ) and shows the rearming sequence. the start shows YT codes Spitfires which is 65 Sq, so someone, maybe @gingerbob could pin down the pilot?' That shouldn't be too difficult. It would probably belong to Group Captain who was Station Commander where 65 Squadron was based at the time. Is the W a clue to the station I wonder or indeed his name? Edit: Westhampnett? Edited November 29, 2017 by noelh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I initially thought it could be Woody Woodhall at Tangmere but it's really too early for 65 Sqn having Vbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Would the drum type cannon ammo be an indication of the Spitfire mark? I don't know if the Vb was belt fed right off from the start? regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 The 'b' never was belt fed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacificmustang Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 I was specifically looking for info on Spitfire gun patches for my VIII and came across this post. What a treasure trove of material BM is. Thanks Troy for posting Bruce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Seen on Supermarine drawing 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Missed these the first time around, thanks for dredging this up again. Great information and films, thank you to all who have posted. Troy, I think the Spitfires in your post may be Vb's - cant see any Coffman bulges on starboard cowl panels (where they are shown) which would be indicative if they were II's (?) Curiously, early style exhausts (not 'fishtail' type) though the film is of at least two aircraft - one with squadron codes, one without. Nice reminder regards the rearming and opening of just the lower panels to speed the process during the BoB, so likely less scuffing and wear on upper wings. PR Edited July 30, 2018 by Peter Roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said: Troy, I think the Spitfires in your post may be Vb's - c per'haps there is some V, is this the gun heater duct behind the third exhaust? Edited July 30, 2018 by BS_w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 11/28/2017 at 11:03 AM, Giorgio N said: Great finds Troy, thanks for sharing ! Both videos are very interesting, this is the first time I see the roll of patches. The protection on the 20mm gun barrel is also interesting, it's a detail that is rarely seen on models. The rearming video shows once again how every step in preparation for a mission was performed accoding to well developed procedures, using materials specifically prepared to work with this procedure (loved the roll of flannelettes for cleaning the barrels). Both videos go to show that in the end in wartime things were done as properly as possible to guarantee the efficiency of the fighting force and that proper maintenance was part of this You will be pleased to know that in the British forces Gun cleaning flannelette still comes in rolls exactly the same as seen in this film, its not used on aircraft guns nowadays its main use is for small arms. flanellette Selwyn 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now