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Spitfire rearming and gun muzzle patch application films


Troy Smith

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found while looking for something else,  there has been discussion on this before.

from the markings etc either IIb or Vb, 

this shows the roll of patches, and application, and the rubber cannon covering being rolled on.   

From the markings this late 41 or early 42,  so showing the supply of specific rolls of self adhesive patches. 

 

this film is before it in sequence, (same plane, W,  which has a Wing Commander pennant ) and shows the rearming sequence.

the start shows YT codes Spitfires which is 65 Sq, so someone,  maybe @gingerbob could pin down the pilot?

 

 

 

cheers

 

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Interesting videos Troy, thanks for posting. I was particularly interested to see the roll of gun patches and will now make sure they're all the same size!

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Great finds Troy, thanks for sharing !

Both videos are very interesting, this is the first time I see the roll of patches. The protection on the 20mm gun barrel is also interesting, it's a detail that is rarely seen on models.

The rearming video shows once again how every step in preparation for a mission was performed accoding to well developed procedures, using materials specifically prepared to work with this procedure (loved the roll of flannelettes for cleaning the barrels).

Both videos go to show that in the end in wartime things were done as properly as possible to guarantee the efficiency of the fighting force and that proper maintenance was part of this

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Just a minor point - from my understanding of RAF rank pennants , that's actually a Group Captain's pennant .  It has one thick red stripe in the centre , whereas a Wing Commander's pennant has two narrow stripes .

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10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

from the markings etc either IIb or Vb,

From the markings this late 41 or early 42,  so showing the supply of specific rolls of self adhesive patches.

this film is before it in sequence, (same plane, W,  which has a Wing Commander pennant ) and shows the rearming sequence.

the start shows YT codes Spitfires which is 65 Sq, so someone,  maybe @gingerbob could pin down the pilot?

Thanks Troy, but not obviously.  Note that (I think) it is a Group Captain's pennant, one bar vs. two [whoops, rs2man snuck in there while I was composing].  Perhaps this aircraft belongs to a Station Flight?

 

I'd say it is a Vb.  It has the hand-turning hole in the starboard cowling, which would be found on a Mk.I but not a Mk.II, and so may point to it being a Supermarine airframe?  The fuselage roundel proportions and location might be a further clue, but I can't keep them straight and I'm not entirely convinced that it is a reliable indication.  It also has the later oil cooler, not the Mk.II type.  Interesting that it has a "Mk.II type" Rotol prop, which doesn't prove anything in my mind.

 

65 Squadron got Vbs somewhere around 6 October '41 (only briefly with IIbs and perhaps only to get introduced to the cannon armament, pending the V).

 

bob

 

Edited by gingerbob
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4 hours ago, BIG X said:

Thanks Troy - I was amazed at just how big the patches are in 'real life' - priceless bit of archive :goodjob:

Wow- so much for the 'doped patches' school of thought! Looked like the WW2 equivalent of duct tape! The 20mm cannon muzzle cover was very interesting, as well. Yes, thanks Troy for sharing the videos!

Mike

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1 minute ago, 72modeler said:

so much for the 'doped patches' school of thought! Looked like the WW2 equivalent of duct tape!

 

I think that doped patches were used initially,  bear in mind the RAF was noted for lack of gunnery training,  and in the pre and phoney war era you get very neatly doped on patches in camo colours, as they didn't get blasted  off on a regular basis (I'm thinking Hurricanes here) 

 

I guess red came about as red oxide was a common fabric primers, and it has advantage of a fast check of 'guns loaded' 

Other colours have been noted for patches as well.(so doped on?) 

 

Given the faff of doing the doped on patches (and getting the remains off) , some must have had the idea of using tape, and then this became the standard,  as can be seen in the film it is an neat and effective solution, though when this 'standard' came in is "the question" 

 

Maybe there are some noted in the National Archive on this.

 

Not time at the mo to do some archive BoB picture scouring.  

 

cheers

T

 

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3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

I think that doped patches were used initially,  bear in mind the RAF was noted for lack of gunnery training,  and in the pre and phoney war era you get very neatly doped on patches in camo colours, as they didn't get blasted  off on a regular basis (I'm thinking Hurricanes here) 

 

July 1940,  but this is the C/O's plane.  Still very neatly done.

Hawker_Hurricane_at_Castle_Camps_-_RAF_F

 

doped on patch,  singlepiece

hf59.jpg.opt859x529o0,0s859x529.jpg

 

famous shot of a 402 Sq IIb,  note the patches over the gun ports, and  the projecting outer guns muzzles.   Easy to do if using the self adhesive patches in the film.

Hurricane-MkIIb-RCAF-402Sqn-AE-BE417-bei

 

time to riad @Etiennedup  flickr

and example of other than red (roundel blue?)  I  presume doped on?

4674411354_639b017b2f_o.jpgSpitfire boneyard. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

good shot showing the colour of the cannon barrel rubber cover

14780326836_c9727d9f2c_o.jpgRCAF Spitfire V,  1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

another of the cannon barrel cover.

15074951115_60a36e8d8d_o.jpgRCAF Spitfire V     1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

note patches (paper?)  over the spent shell ports underwing

15225937513_6b7a6cde20_o.jpgRCAF Spitfire Mk V,  1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

as these are all of the same Sq

 

azure blue patches

2527331399_92e2a7697a_o.jpgSpitfire Vb...............SAAF by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

early 1941

5480779565_81e4e04c37_o.jpgSpitfire II        April 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

old thread on gun ports

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34823-spitfire-gun-port-covers/

 

a final  wild card,  Spit Va in the US for testing

28897966456_d824a52b3a_o.jpgSpitfire Mk V in the States, 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Quote

 

The Mk. VA was one of the few Spitfires supplied to the United States for evaluation. By request of gen. Arnold, two production Spitfires Mk.V’s, R7347 and W3119 were shipped to the United States in late summer of 1941. The aircraft were tested at NACA Langley in November-December 1941. W3119 was later transferred to Wright Field Dayton for comparative trials..

Here we see a Lockeed P-38 Lightning and Spitfire No. W3119 sitting nose to nose on the ground at Lockheed Air Terminal in Burbank, California

 

 

 

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Great videos, Troy.  Thanks for sharing.

 

The square self-adhesive patches look rather similar to the patches applied to Buffalos in the Far East which were, somewhat unusually, aligned to look like a diamond when viewed from head-on.  You can just make out the patch over the port wing gun in the image below:

 

Brewster-Buffalo-MkI-RAAF-21Sqn-GAE-AN18

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Interesting stuff. I found the video below which shows a Spit being re-armed, in a nice high resolution.

 

A couple of things I noted:

- the cordite streaking coming back from the gun ports (which on a model would get called unrealistic!)

- The appearance of the patches around the gun ports - open but very neat with no sign of torn fabric, yet with the colour of the patches clearly visible..

 

 

Lastly, am I imagining things or did I read once that during the BoB the ground crews developed a way of re-arming using only the under wing panels? No sign of that approach in these films.

 

regards,

Jason

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42 minutes ago, JasonC said:

Lastly, am I imagining things or did I read once that during the BoB the ground crews developed a way of re-arming using only the under wing panels? No sign of that approach in these films.

It's in one of the 'Spitfire At War' books, I believe.

 

It may be me imagining stuff, but I thought it was mentioned in one of the videos but I'm damned if I can find it now!

 

John.

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36 minutes ago, johnd said:

It's in one of the 'Spitfire At War' books, I believe.

It's in the first volume of 'Spitfire At War' in a chapter called 'Feeding the Guns'. The technique involved using a piece of canvas to pull the first round of the belt through the breech. This obviated the need to remove the top panels.

 

John.

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'this film is before it in sequence, (same plane, W,  which has a Wing Commander pennant (Group Captain ) and shows the rearming sequence.

the start shows YT codes Spitfires which is 65 Sq, so someone,  maybe @gingerbob could pin down the pilot?'

 

That shouldn't be too difficult. It would probably belong to Group Captain who was Station Commander where 65 Squadron was based at the time. Is the W a clue to the station I wonder or indeed his name?

 

Edit: Westhampnett?

 

 

Edited by noelh
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  • 8 months later...

Missed these the first time around, thanks for dredging this up again. Great information and films, thank you to all who have posted.

 

Troy, I think the Spitfires in your post may be Vb's - cant see any Coffman bulges on starboard cowl panels (where they are shown) which would be indicative if they were II's (?) Curiously, early style exhausts (not 'fishtail' type) though the film is of at least two aircraft - one with squadron codes, one without.

 

Nice reminder regards the rearming and opening of just the lower panels to speed the process during the BoB, so likely less scuffing and wear on upper wings.

 

PR

Edited by Peter Roberts
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1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

Troy, I think the Spitfires in your post may be Vb's - c


per'haps there is some V, is this the gun heater duct behind the third exhaust?

Edited by BS_w
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On 11/28/2017 at 11:03 AM, Giorgio N said:

Great finds Troy, thanks for sharing !

Both videos are very interesting, this is the first time I see the roll of patches. The protection on the 20mm gun barrel is also interesting, it's a detail that is rarely seen on models.

The rearming video shows once again how every step in preparation for a mission was performed accoding to well developed procedures, using materials specifically prepared to work with this procedure (loved the roll of flannelettes for cleaning the barrels).

Both videos go to show that in the end in wartime things were done as properly as possible to guarantee the efficiency of the fighting force and that proper maintenance was part of this

You will be pleased to know that in the British forces Gun cleaning flannelette still comes in rolls exactly the same as seen in this film, its not used on aircraft guns nowadays its main use is for small arms.

 

flanellette

 

Selwyn

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