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RidgeRunner

Your view on these colours? Now I need help! :( 08/012/17

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Hi all you wise ones!

 

Continuing my them of A-26 related questions.

 

I'd appreciate your views on what the two orange colours are on this machine. I guess the fuselage is Fluorescent Orange? 

 

FlickrA-26

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Martin

 

PS: I'm hoping this is my last on the subject! ;)

Edited by RidgeRunner

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Im going to guess faded Day-glo orange for the fuselage and Faded Day glo red on the vertical. Quite a number of Hellcats and bearcats that were sacrificed in missle tests were painted in multi Day glo colors. This could have been a Drone controlling aircraft painted in high visibilty colors ? 

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Thanks Chaps. I'd say International (Fluorescent Orange) on the fuselage and Arctic Red Wing tips and fin. I'll gather more wise guidance before I apply any paint! ;)

Martin 

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4 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

Hi all you wise ones!

 

Continuing my them of A-26 related questions.

 

I'd appreciate your views on what the two orange colours are on this machine. I guess the fuselage is Fluorescent Orange? 

 

FlickrA-26

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Martin

 

PS: I'm hoping this is my last on the subject! ;)

Martin,

 

Looks like dayglo orange, FS12197 and insignia red, FS11136 for the fin/rear fuselage; the color of that area seems like a match for the red bar on the national insiginia, which would be insignia red. I have also read a written reference for arctic read that listed FS11120, which was a lighter shade than FS11136. I had always thought that arctic red was the same as insignia red, but have seen reference to a light and a dark arctic red- Maybe Dana or Nick can be more informative on the arctic red issue. (This wouldn't  be an ex-Chilean AF Invader, by any chance?) Ha! FWIW- I sure wish Special Hobby would release the new-tool 1/72 Invader that has been announced by them since forever!

Mike

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Oldest reference I have to the scheme for target tug aircrafts is my 1964 copy of T.O.1-1-4, where International Orange is prescribed for aircrafts permanently assigned to target tug duties: I mention these aircrafts as I believe that the Invader in the picture was likely used for this. In the document though it's stated that this colour was to be applied on all surfaces except the bottom of the wings and fuselage. These would have remained in natural metal or any other original paint applied to the type.

The scheme seems to be different in the picture but I also believe that the picture was taken well before 1964, likely in the late '50s. I don't have any official document covering that era, could be well that a different orange was used.

The darker areas on the tail are very likely "Arctic Markings" and these were supposed to be in Orange ANA 633 according to the T.O. for the B-26....

However, this colour was originally introduced for "Conspicuity Markings" in 1960, markings that were for example used on training aircrafts. The T.O. (that I remind was issued in 1964) calls for this colour for both acrtic and conspicuity markings, meaning that whatever it says is likely not applicable to a late '50s aircraft.

To complete the story, these conspicuity markings had been introduced in 1957 using ANA 634 fluerescent orange yellow, then replaced by ANA 634 in 1960, while it's known that arctic markings after the war were simply in Insignia Red ! I don't know the full story but I suspect that when my copy of the T.O. was issued, ANA 633 replaced both the ANA 634 of the conspicuity markings (actually already happened in 1960) and the Insignia Red of the Arctic markings to simplify things. ANA 634 was then replaced by International Orange FS 12197 in 1970. This colour is not fluorescent

 

So what does this leave us ? Well, being a late '50s picture the T.O. is not applicable, so you may say that all I wrote above is of no interest.. :D.

Insignia Red was the original colour for the arctic markings and IMHO the tail is in this colour. I've seen pictures of target tugs both with and without these areas covered in red.

The orange on the rest of the fuselage IMHO is ANA 634, as it looks very similar to the conspicuity markings seen on aircrafts in the late '50s

Edited by Giorgio N

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Nice one Giorgio: I always whince a bit when I read the term 'Arctic Red': as Dave Menard often said (and put me right once): "There's no such color!". He used the term, "Arctic Conspicuity Markings", which knowing Dave's service history and subsequent links with the USAF Museum (as was), is likely to be he correct term, and probably the title of a T.O. somewhere, which would state Insignia Red for these schemes.

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Wow! Some great stuff there!

 

so now I need to relate all that to Humbrol!

 

Martin

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2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

(This wouldn't  be an ex-Chilean AF Invader, by any chance?) Ha!

 

Bang on, Mike! Yes, it is to get me the correct colours before the airbrush sees the light of day! ;)

 

Martin

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4 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

 

Bang on, Mike! Yes, it is to get me the correct colours before the airbrush sees the light of day! ;)

 

Martin

Martin, Good deal- glad to help, even if it was in a small way. BTW, I have always used 'arctic markings' to describe the insignia red/international orange/dayglo orange painted surfaces  used on the aircraft that flew in those areas, but never heard to the color referred to as 'arctic red' until fairly recently. I remember a lot of discussion regarding this on F-89 Scorpions. 

 

Giorgio- you must be sitting on all the T.O.'s, you lucky man! Thanks for sharing the documention- I will file this topic away for future reference. I should have known Dave Menard would have the answer; he was nice enough to loan me the manuals and other written information on the F-51H years ago from the AF Museum library when I was doing research for a modeler in New Zealand who was working on producing a vacform or injected kit- we have one preserved here at Lackland AB and I took a lot of photos, made measurements, and scale drawings for him. I guess the project never saw the light of day, but it was fun doing the research. Thank you again for sharing your references and knowledge so freely with the rest of us. Ciao!

Mike

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Mike, I believe there was a discussion on this forum too regarding the Scorpion and the arctic markings.  As for the TOs, some of them can be found in PDF on the web with some searching. Unfortunately not all and also not all schemes are listed in the TOs... Finding that bit of information needed within these large documents is sometimes not easy, but really they are great resources.

Your story of supplying info for an F-51H kit reminds me of the unsung heroes of the modelling world, the many people like you who supply companies small and big with information. We often think of manufacturers but rarely of those who volunteer to share their knowledge with them. It's a pity if the info didn not lead to a kit, would have been an accurate one!


Sabrejet, the 1064 TO refers to conspicuity markings and arctic markings as two separate thins, although of course the purpose is similar (improving visiibility) and the colours are listed as the same... in any case if Dave Menard refers to them as arctic conspiquity markings, they must have been known that was at some point! Menard is a researcher that has given us a lot. His "USAF Plus Fifteen" book is one of the fafourite books ever, don't know how much time I've spent browising through those pages..

Just to add a few trivia, the same To mentions the use of both fluerescent paint and fluorescent tape. The reference number indicated for the paint is simply 633, the term ANA 633 is my own as I'm sure this is the paint referred to.

I'd love to find earlier TOs,  wonder where the introduction of the arctic markings is written.

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Hi all!

 

I've chewed it over and reckon that FS12197 (ANA 634) equates to Humbrol 46. Then the "Arctic" red would be Humbrol 153 Insignia Red. My other thought was Humbrol 82 instead of Insignia Red to show a degree of ageing. Any thoughts? I know, I know, I should just take the plunge - be bold! Unfortunately I am made in a way that chews things over... and over ..... :(

 

Martin 

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Martin, there's one important thing to keep in mind regarding the various "high visibility" orange colours used by the USAF (and the USN): some are fluorescent ( dayglo), some are not.

In particular, FS 12197 is not a fluorescent colour, it's just an orange, as shown by its inclusion in the x2xxx range of the FS. ANA 633 and 634 on the other hand were fluorescent colours.The closest FS for 633 is said to be FS 28913, where the 8 means it's in the fluorescent colours range. The only FS reference for ANA 634 is 28915, again of course a colour in the x8xxx range.

Now where does this leave us as modellers ? Fluorescent paints on models are a tricky thing, some companies make paints that are quite realistic in their representation of dayglo colours, some don't. Some dayglo paints don't look too realistic on a model, others are better. Some modellers like a degree of dayglo from a paint that is supposed to represent dayglo, others prefer to just go with a standard paint to get a more toned down effect. Personally I like to represent dayglo to a certain degree, particularly if the colour sits beside a normal colour (look at the contrast between the orange on the fuselage and the tail),

Luckily FS 28915 is available in the Model Master enamel range, to me it looks like something that may not be bad at all to represent the colour on the top of this B-26. Of course assuming that this is indeed ANA 634, mine is an opinion based on comparisons with colours known to be used around the same time for similar purposes, with all the dangers of looking at 60 year old pictures on a computer screen... The same Model Master also has 28913 in their range.

Unfortunately though Model Master paints seem to be hard to find today in Europe, IIRC they are not imported anymore.

Xtracolour has 28913 but not 28915. You may look at this colour and see if it's much different, xtracolour enamels are likely easier to find for you

Probably not useful in this case, Tauromodel makes a solid decal sheet in FS 28915. Useful for stripes and the likes, I can't see however how a full top fuselage could be easily covered with decal...

 

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That is a very useful summary, Giorgio. I'd love to use ModelMaster but, as you say, they are not available in Europe, or at least not in the UK, I like a hint of fluorescence if the original was that way. I might, therefore try a coat of white, then, Humbrol 46 and then Humbrol 209. Of course I might concede defeat rather than mess up my build!

 

I appreciate your comprehensive post.

 

All the best,

 

Martin

 

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Hi Giorgio!

 

I managed to get a tin of Humbrol 192 (FS28915) from ebay. It is from Italy!!!! I hope it is the real thing! ;)

 

Martin 

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Thanks a lot, John.

 

I can top Trump that machine, I reckon. Taken at Davis Monthan in May 1979

 

DM1

 

Martin

 

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1 hour ago, RidgeRunner said:

Thanks a lot, John.

 

I can top Trump that machine, I reckon. Taken at Davis Monthan in May 1979

 

DM1

 

Martin

 

My eyes! My eyes!

Mike

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On 28 November 2017 at 2:08 PM, Giorgio N said:

Unfortunately though Model Master paints seem to be hard to find today in Europe, IIRC they are not imported anymore.

Xtracolour has 28913 but not 28915. You may look at this colour and see if it's much different, xtracolour enamels are likely easier to find for you

 

I got myself a Humbrol 192 (FS 28915). I hope it has been stored okay! I have also seen that Creative Models stock Model Master and currently showing FS 28915 as available.

 

Martin

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Hi all,

 

Following some great advice I tracked down some MM FS28913 and FS28915 plus some Humbrol 192. Here's what I got:

 

paint

 

To be honest the two MM look the same! They do look better than the Humbrol 192, though! The Hum 192 is at the top, behind the cockpit. It case you can't read my squiggles they are (L toR): MM 28913, Humbrol 19, Humbrol 18, Humbrol 192, MM 28915, Humbrol 46 and Xtracolor X104.

 

Martin

Edited by RidgeRunner

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I reckon so. I just have to decide what to use - the 28915 or the Hum 192.... Hmmmm.......?

 

Martin

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Martin, received the email but for some reason I can only accees my mail it on my mobile and not on my laptop today... weird !

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49 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

Martin, received the email but for some reason I can only accees my mail it on my mobile and not on my laptop today... weird !

 

Oops ..... Sorry but I don't understand, Giorgio.

 

Martin

 

 

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