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massimo

Ark Royal's last cruise - 1) Fairey Gannet AEW3 update; 2) Blackburn Buccaneer S2 let's start again

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On 11/01/2018 at 9:17 AM, Dave Swindell said:

Lee board, a lifting temporary keel lowered when under sail to stop the vessel making leeway (drifting downwind). Confusingly in relation to larboard, can be fitted to either or generally both sides of the vessel, but only the lee side board would be used.

The term is still (or rather was still 20 years ago when I left...) in use in the modern RN, though in a different context; bunks have lee boards, which you fit to the outer side (i.e. the bit you get in through) of the bunk to stop you falling out of bed in a heavy sea.  As ship design developed in the 80s-90s, permanently rigged bunks were often (though not always) replaced by bunks that fold away during the day, and these replaced lee boards with straps (kind of like seat belts) to stop you falling out.  I hated the straps - they had a nasty habit of staying on for just long enough for you to fall asleep, and then coming undone just in time for you to get airborne as the ship hit the next "goffer" (big wave).  This might sound amusing, but it most definitely isn't; my Coxswain in Blackwater had previously served in one of the Hunt class minehunters, and he had a badly broken nose, suffered when the ship was pitching heavily in the Bay of Biscay and threw him very hard against the deckhead (ceiling), while asleep.  

 

My cabin in Broadsword was directly underneath the for'd Seawolf launcher; a cursory examination of a photo of this fine vessel will show you that this is a long way forward of the centre of gravity.  In a heavy sea, my cabin became pretty much untenable; you were going up and down like in a high speed lift, pulling 2G (or so it felt) at the bottom of each trough and becoming weightless at the top.  I can assure you that this is not conducive to any sleep whatsoever.  In heavy weather the Supply Officer (whose cabin was a mirror image of mine) and I generally ended up sleeping on the deck in the Wardroom, which was much closer to the centre of the ship.

 

Dave is right that pre-steam sailors saw most things in relation to the wind.  As a helicopter pilot who spent most of his life at 500' and below (usually quite a bit below), I became instinctively obsessed with wind direction, because I never knew when I might have to autorotate into the sea (engine failure or whatever) at no notice, and if at all possible you want to do that into wind to maximise your chances of a controlled ditching.  It rapidly becomes ingrained... to the extent that when I went back to fish-headery (in Blackwater) between flying tours I was astonished at how little notice my watchkeepers took of the wind, even though the wind still has a very large impact on a small ship like a minesweeper - Blackwater had tall slab-sided funnels, and went sideways in a wind like it was going out of fashion.  They soon learned that they'd better know exactly where the wind was from, because the Captain would be sure to ask them...

 

[Yes, aileron etc are French words, because many early aviation pioneers were French.  But since, for example, "aileron" has no meaning other than the thing that waggles about on an aircraft wing, my point about jargon definitely stands!]

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU

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Well Crisp, some more naitical terminology. I'm glad a chopper pilot you new about wind and as you say the fisheads had come to ignore it and at their peril. as a junglie our aircrew used to use the wind to advantage when approaching a target. Bette rthe advantage of supprise than a rocket up your jacksie...

 

Don't you just love the terminology, I don't see any crabs with any input!!!

 

Apologies to Massiom for highkacking his build theard now and again but I'm sure he will forgive us the intrusion. It all goes to improve the vocabulary. You want to read 'Jackspeak, a Dictionalry of Naval Slangwage" A real gem.

 

Colin

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No apologies needed!!!

My vocabulary will improve for sure, but you all have to give me time, as in the last couple of days the list of new words has is increasing quickly and I'm not sure I'm keeping up with all of them!!!:drunk::wacko:

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Hi mates,

I've got  a question for the well informed:

I wanted to paint the wheel bays interior , in order to glue the wings to their lower section, but I'm not sure about their colour...on the kit instructions they say "medium grey...

but, on some pictures, the landing gears' legs seem to be sky.

Does anybody know what colour should they be?

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I believe the answer is:

Airframe colour inside wells, so yes Sky (type S)?

 

James will be along to confirm or deny soon I think

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Yes sky in service.  Even brand new u/c legs in boxes were in Sky.

The nose bay I think was in aluminium, I've only managed to look at preserved examples and there doesn't seem to be any trace of any other colours used, that includes XL472 which wasn't restored.

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I've watched all the pictures in my possess and search the net, to come to the same conclusion: the wheel bays wells were grey. In several pictures of aircraft which haven't been repainted you can se the difference between the outside sky end the grey inside. The wells' doors interior and the landing gears legs were sky.

It seems ( and probably is the same colour of the wingfolds, but even here it's only applied to the internal surfaces, while those plates being part of the wings' "shells " are painted sky and EDSG.

The pictures here below can't be misunderstood!

28-gannet-aew_3-wheel-well-.jpg

Picture's copyright by Spitfire Studio

 

fairey_gannet_aew.3_15_of_35.jpg

fairey_gannet_aew.3_23_of_35.jpg

Pictures' copyright by Luc Colin.

 

XkBas61.jpg

 

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It might be that different finishes were used, depending on when they went through major servicing etc.

Don't forget that XL502 is a restored aircraft.

 

This is the repainted bay of XL500

16481491613_41b5cb0ffe_c.jpgFairey Gannet AEW.3 port main undercarriage bay by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

Gannets also went through the phase of all the other FAA fixed wing of the 1960s, of having the greeny gold and then the redish finish caused by a preservative film applied over the top.

One thing is for sure, they ended up getting pretty grubby!

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1fZ6phm.png

yqPkOuX.png

This aircraftìs finish must be its last paint work before retirement, with stencils and labels  visible, and you can clearly see the difference between the sky on the exterior and the grey on the interior.

 

UpoxO6L.png

this aircaft was in service and you can see the grey paintedwing frame.I think the wings frames were painted before the aircraft was assembled and the wheelbay interior was part of the wing's structure, thus I tend to believe they must have been the same shade of gray.

 

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I'm glad I chose to make a COD, this is easy

24714251628_b9c5a2523d.jpg

compared to yours

 

:)

Edited by perdu

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1 hour ago, massimo said:

 

UpoxO6L.png

this aircaft was in service and you can see the grey paintedwing frame.I think the wings frames were painted before the aircraft was assembled and the wheelbay interior was part of the wing's structure, thus I tend to believe they must have been the same shade of gray.

That is XL502 which in that picture had been completely restored and repainted by Neil Moffatt for the display circuit, around 1988.

 

The other two pictures (guessing XL482?) certainly look representative of the type in service to me, and I would agree with you @massimo, it looks like they had grey wells on some, or from a certain time at least.

The Fairey paint guide does state u/c and bays be painted in the underside colour, but that was quite a long  previously.

 

All that I can say is that maybe there were changes in how the aircraft were finished depending on when they were serviced/refinished, I have regular acces to XL472 which hasn't been restored and has sky bays.

I guess there is a choice at least.

Edited by 71chally
added middle paragraph

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40 minutes ago, 71chally said:

That is XL502 which in that picture had been completely restored and repainted by Neil Moffatt for the display circuit, around 1988.

That aircraft makes me crazy!!!

On several occasions and for different reasons I've been checking pictures and after having thoughtI had a wider range of exemples, I ended up realizing most pictures were from of the same aircraft!!!:yahoo::drunk::rofl::wall:

I don't know...

this is another one (X226) not repainted and it's grey inside with sky legs and doors...

m2EyaJm.jpg

XberzIg.jpg

07F01kp.jpg

Now...even the repainted ones seem to be grey, so my question is: with all the sky paint they must have had at their disposal to paint the underside...  why should they have chosen grey for the inside wells???

Probably because they were grey...

I don't know...don't want to disappoint James who's been n°1 source up to now and who I trust very much, but it's difficult for meto paint it sky when my heart says grey...

Well...Rossella O'hara said:"tomorrow is another day"...

so I'll leave it for tomorrow!!!

 

Question:

When did they retire?

Was it long after Ark's last cruise?Would there have been time for an overhaul after that or is it reasonable to assume that was their last paint configuration?

Edited by massimo

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XP226 certainly doesn't look restored there, it has been since though.

 

I'm not saying that you are wrong Massimo, certainly evidence enough of grey in use, and I certainly would't say you are wrong to use it.  The bays would be an odd and difficult thing to repaint anyway.

However some were sky, and I have seen plenty of brand new components, ex FAA stock in boxes which are sky.

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Totally engaging work Massimo. This is going to look fantastic with all the attention you've been giving this. :clap:

Tony

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2 hours ago, massimo said:

Question:

When did they retire?

Was it long after Ark's last cruise?Would there have been time for an overhaul after that or is it reasonable to assume that was their last paint configuration?

They retired just after the Arks last cruise, the squadron disbanding on 15 Dec 1978.  

They wouldn't have been overhauled (last one was in February 1976), some went into long term storage at Culdrose, others to museums.

 

I'm not quite sure where we are going with this now, I absolutely agree with you that the bays could have been grey, in some cases. 

The undercarriage legs and the insides of the doors were in Sky, I have hundreds of pictures of Gannets in service and I have not seen one with grey legs, beyond maybe one or two odd examples, and I have yet to find those.

Examples of online pic of a service Gannet, 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Fairey_Gannet_AEW3%2C_UK_-_Navy_AN1339874.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Fairey_Gannet_AEW3%2C_UK_-_Navy_AN2103124.jpg

 

Why would someone want to paint grey over the Sky? I don't know, but a museum has done it here with XL502, shiny grey over dull Sky

http://nabe3saviation.web.fc2.com/images7/waGan-173.jpg

Other side of same aircraft at same time,

http://nabe3saviation.web.fc2.com/images7/waGan-173.jpg

 

I kinda of know which preserved Gannets to trust as references (not many), been studying them for 30+ years so a bit hard not to.

 

As I always say, it is your model and paint it how references serve for the particular aircraft if you can.

 

 

 

It takes a lot to disappoint me, I have two young daughters!:lalala:

Anyhow, your superb build keeps makes me very happy, I couldn't even hope to do what you are doing!

Edited by 71chally
atrocous spolling

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XP226 had at least one repaint during her career:wicked:

Here she is at HMS Fulmar's airshow in 1963. 

I was aged ten and directly opposite her first impact point!

5c50f17c-f673-49f7-b4b4-86e9a1e57623.jpg

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I've seen a sequence of shots from that occasion somewhere, they (the crew) and it (the Gannet) were lucky!

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Massimo, I came across this just now (I don't know if you've seen it already, if you have I'll delete the link) from about three years prior to the period you're working on, but it contains a wealth of deck detail and explanatory narration that I found most educational:

Tony

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WOW!!!

I love the way this topic is being enriched with research and documentation, vocabulary and now even tales and movies!!!!:yahoo:

Thank you all for attending!!!:clap2:

 

Edited by massimo

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1 hour ago, massimo said:

WOW!!!

I love the way this topic is being enriched with research and documentation, vocabulary and now even tales and movies!!!!:yahoo:

Thank you all for attending!!!:clap2:

 

This kind of things is one of the best features of BM, if you ask me :)

 

Ciao

 

 

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Good afternoon!

Last night, after having watched the video (Thanks Baron!!!) and read some stories related to Gannets (thanks Scimitar!!!), l went back to the workbench and added the outside plates  at the front and back of the wings' inner sections.

 

I glued them first, after having shaped them very approximately.

Bt5KxBB.jpg

gYssLqk.jpg

 

then, this morning,I filed and sanded them down to match the wings' lowersides , which were just dry fitted. Of course, this is just the frame. Details will be added once the wings bottom sides are glued to the top ones.

A7lRtPm.jpg

tyEPfFH.jpg

C2t1cql.jpg

 

A few more details were added to the wheel bays. 

XIabUb0.jpg

KW9i4lt.jpg

YFY7fkq.jpg

jzQfiW9.jpg

Now I'm nearly ready to glue the wings' bottom sides, but before I'll have to paint the wheelbays inside.

...Problem is...

I can't find my airbrush!!!:rofl::wall::clap2::swear::tmi:

Edited by massimo

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2 hours ago, massimo said:

I can't find my airbrush

Problem solved!

artist-s-paintbrush-isolated-white-17630

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Good morning!

I found my airbrush!!!!:yahoo:

I had it in the box with the two Jaguars on stand by, I may have put it there just to remind me the two brothers are still there waiting for my attention!!! I'll put it back there , so it'll keep its purpose!!!

 

ha6qovJ.jpg

5LkRKEu.jpg

After a a long thought I decided to go for grey, so I started by spraying a layer of black...

 

mURgPV8.jpg

...followed by a layer of grey and one of Future.

 

HQk9UFg.jpg

Once dried I added Tamiya panel lines accent brown. and once dried I brush painted a few details with black, brown and green and I sprayed a very light layer with grey to even things a bit. A bit of dry-brushing may follow later...I'll see.

 

bEbu3cI.jpg

cG8Hpd8.jpg

QUbwfkg.jpg

zPz2Wxl.jpg

...and finally Iwas ready toglue the wings' bottom sides. I also put some ciano acrylate in the junction beween the wings and the fuselage halves.

Next step will be filing and sanding.:banghead::hanging::headbang:

 

Next step

 

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