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TE456 Spitfire Mk XVI


CamberrySauce

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Hi all,

I've just ordered my first Eduard kit, A 1/72 Spitfire Mk XVI Bubble-top. I have a question concerning this scheme 

70126_4.jpg

Spitfire in Auckland

I live quite close to the Auckland Museum and they have a spitfire with the same serial code on it however the roundels on the wings are different and the Eduard scheme has clipped wings whereas the Auckland one does not. It would be greatly appreciated if someone could tell me any information why the Auckland one is different, thanks in advance.

 

-Cam

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I can't tell you definitely Cam but afaik, most/all Mk XVIEs had clipped wingtips, full span wings would be very rare. As for the roundel positioning, if you can't find a wartime photo of TE456, trust the info in the Eduard decal positioning guide. Spitfire upper wing decals were pretty much governed by the size of the roundel & where they could fit between the leading edge of the aileron & leading edge of the wing. Looking at the Eduard instructions, they've got it pretty right, more info about Spitfire markings here, an earlier photo of TE456, as she was shown originally in the museum is here. Not sure when the full span wing tips came in?

Steve.

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3 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

I can't tell you definitely Cam but afaik, most/all Mk XVIEs had clipped wingtips, full span wings would be very rare. As for the roundel positioning, if you can't find a wartime photo of TE456, trust the info in the Eduard decal positioning guide. Spitfire upper wing decals were pretty much governed by the size of the roundel & where they could fit between the leading edge of the aileron & leading edge of the wing. Looking at the Eduard instructions, they've got it pretty right, more info about Spitfire markings here, an earlier photo of TE456, as she was shown originally in the museum is here. Not sure when the full span wing tips came in?

Steve.

Thanks for info! :) The auckland spitfire has the earlier just dark blue and red roundels whereas the eduard has the blue, red, white and yellow roundels. Which one would be the better choice?

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7 minutes ago, CamberrySauce said:

Thanks for info! :) The auckland spitfire has the earlier just dark blue and red roundels whereas the eduard has the blue, red, white and yellow roundels. Which one would be the better choice?

I would go with the Eduard  again, the time it was illustrated in would be right for the C1 type upper wing roundels rather than the B type wartime roundels I'd think. This photo is of another 501 sqn machine of about the same time & looks like it has C type with the yellow outer which is possibly even more correct, the C1 were usually associated with 2nd TAF toward the end of the war to stop blue on blue incidents. lots more Spitfire XVI photos here.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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10 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Cam, I've added a couple more links to my last post.

Steve.

Thanks very much for this really helpful info and links :) I'm looking forward to posting a work in progress when it arrives :)

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There should be no yellow border on the upper surface roundel for an RAuxAF aircraft, I'd go with a C type. As Steve said, the yellow border on the upper wing roundel was a 2 TAF thing. The prescribed size for Spitfire upper wing roundels was 56" and this size was retained until the introduction of the later post war roundel

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  • 1 year later...

Thought I'd dig this thread up for another question. I notice that the Eduard kit uses duck egg green for the lettering, but the aircraft in the Auckland War Memorial Museum uses white. Image is my own. 

 

7VdShOsh.jpg

 

Is this another mistake from Eduard? 

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White would be / is  right for post war Spitfires etc. especially the Auxiliaries. As for the roundels they could be a mix during a transition period immediate post war. 

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I have serious doubts about both the repaint in the Aukland museum and the Eduard instructions. Sometimes I wonder if TE456 actually even served with 501 Sqn ?

Now since the museum is in possession of the log book I guess that they checked for information there, in any case their repaint is sure incorrect in the upper wing roundel: by then the so called "C" roundel was specified for all RAF fighters in Europe and late production Spitfire XVIs received this on the production line. Eduard instructions are also wrong, as there would have been no yellow circle around the roundel (as wrote in the past in this same thread, this was a 2 TAF late war feature).

Since I've seen no picture of this aircraft in 501 Sqn. service, and I wonder if there's any (but there's a picture of her in silver with 3 CAACU in 1952), the colour of the codes is open to interpretation...

Sky was supposed to be used right after the war, although it is known that some units used other colours. White was introduced officially in latr 1947 and a number of units sure used white. The same document introducing white also requested all day fighters to be painted in Aluminum, so that in theory the scheme for an RAuxAF Spitfire would have been overall aluminum with black codes (and postwar roundels...), but it was also stated that any change of scheme would have been implemented whenever an aircraft was to be repainted as part of the natural maintenance schedule, meaning that the wartime scheme soldiered on for a few years.

The presence of new camouflage and markings requirements together with the lack of any immediate need for repainting all aircraft led to the coexistence of old and new features, for example Spitfires in the wartime scheme carrying postwar roundels and/or white codes, with any combination possible

Now regarding 501 Squadron, pictures of other Spitfire XVI of the unit seem to show mainly Sky codes, as should have been before the 1947 changes. It's often very hard to tell white from Sky in B/W pictures and I've seen a picture where the individual code may even be white with the rest in Sky... but of course could simply be a matter of different light.

A number of Spitfire of the unit carried the post 1947 silver scheme but others retained the wartime scheme until their replacement with Vampires, completed in 1949

So, what would I do with this aircraft ? Personally I can see two safe options: painting the model as it is in the museum or... choosing another aircraft for which there's proper documentation of her time with 501 Sqn. If I had to paint her supoosing that TE456 did fly with 501 while carrying the codes RAB-J, I'd probably use the Eduard Sky codes but replace the top wing roundel with a C type.

 

Of course after having posted these thoughts, somebody will post a picture of TE456 carrying exactly this scheme while flying with 501 Squadron within the next 10 minutes, proving me wrong all along....  😁

 

 

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Hi all,

I've just done a quick google search of TE456 and this image comes up, I believe these were the colours prior to Auckland Museum's repaint

latest?cb=20171001110133 

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300b31e0f3489ddc31cd2c08677257d7552d3d71

 

I'm quite glad now that I haven't yet started the kit as this is a very helpful and interesting discussion.

 

- Cam 

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TE456:RAB-J did indeed serve with 501 Squadron between 30 June 1946 and 6 May 1949. Photographs also exist of this machine as I have set of six b/w contact prints of it at Filton in 1948. I don't have permission to post these prints but it does have clipped wings, a 'light' coloured fuselage roundel ring and squadron codes, but no circle around the wing roundels. Further prints depict the rest of squadron in a similar scheme except for TE474: RAB-P, the CO's aircraft, Sqn Ldr Tom James, and TE403: RAB-G, which were both silver overall with black code letters, 

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2 hours ago, vampiredave said:

TE456:RAB-J did indeed serve with 501 Squadron between 30 June 1946 and 6 May 1949. Photographs also exist of this machine as I have set of six b/w contact prints of it at Filton in 1948. I don't have permission to post these prints but it does have clipped wings, a 'light' coloured fuselage roundel ring and squadron codes, but no circle around the wing roundels. Further prints depict the rest of squadron in a similar scheme except for TE474: RAB-P, the CO's aircraft, Sqn Ldr Tom James, and TE403: RAB-G, which were both silver overall with black code letters, 

 

That is very good to know ! Even if you can't post the pictures, your description is most useful and sounds like her appearance was consistent with other machines I know of the same unit: wartime Day Fighter Scheme with Sky rear fuselage band. C roundels above and below the wings, C1 roundel (so with yellow ring) on the fuselage sides.

Codes could have been Sky or white, what do you think is more likely from the pictures ?

Regarding the silver painted machines, IIRC RAB-H had postwar roundels, is RAB-P the same of does she wear wartime roundels ?

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This may be of some help?

Info from the Auckland Museum:

"Auckland Museum's Mark XVI Spitfire was ordered on 19 April 1944 and built at Castle Bromwich, England. Completed by August 1945, in March the following year it was issued to No. 501 Squadron (County of Gloucester), Royal Auxiliary Air Force, based at Filton.

"In 1951 the Spitfire was placed in storage at Cosford and in 1953 transferred to Lyneham. Later that year it was issued to No. 3 CAACU Exeter, where it was painted silver and coded '43'.

"...No. 485 New Zealand Spitfire Squadron, operated Marks V, IX and XVI between 1941 and 1945 from bases in Britain and Europe.

"In August 1955, TE 456 was transferred to No. 33 Maintenance Unit. Here the wingtips, guns, and sight were refitted and the aircraft recorded to TE 425, for it to be used in the war film "Reach for the Sky." Soon after it was transferred to No. 47 Maintenance Unit, Sealand, in preparation for dispatch to New Zealand.

"TE 456 was presented to the Auckland Museum in 1956 by the Air Ministry, United Kingdom, at the request of Air Chief Marshal Sir Keith Park. Although a later model than those used in the Battle of Britain, Sir Keith chose it from those available in the 1950's because it bore the closest resemblance to the aircraft flown by New Zealanders. Also, it had been in the No. 501 Squadron, which served under his command during the Battle of Britain."

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Loosely connected with this thread, sadly a number of museum aircraft are nicely finished but inaccurately done. Take a look, as examples,  at the Mossie, P-40 and Hudson, Avenger  in my NZ images recently taken. Right colours to a point but applied in a random fashion.  So any museum aircraft ( with a few exceptions) are not finished quite right but at least they are safely preserved.

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19 hours ago, vampiredave said:

TE456:RAB-J did indeed serve with 501 Squadron between 30 June 1946 and 6 May 1949. Photographs also exist of this machine as I have set of six b/w contact prints of it at Filton in 1948.

Thanks, Dave. Is this from a book? Do you have a source we could find? Would be interested to see those photos. 

 

Another shot of mine from the Auckland War Memorial Museum. 

 

sfTrpzYh.jpg

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There are over fifty contact prints in the collection depicting Spitfires, Harvards and squadron personnel, which were taken by a professional photographer in 1947/1948. I can't quite recall the original reason why I have them at the moment, but the photographer's son passed them to me some time ago on the strict understanding that they were not to  be shared. I think that it was because he did not want the collection 'trivialized' or, as in case of some of the others he took, to be 'lifted' - as in Post 4 - by someone who considers it to be acceptable to profit from the work from others?

Edited by vampiredave
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The best source of information on TE456 is from Morris' "Spitfire: The New Zealand Story" where he devotes pages 304 to 310 on the airframe including a full service history and which has photos of her in service with 501 and also with No.3 CAACU.

 

As you're in Auckland Cam, there used to be a copy upstairs in the WWII section "reading area" in the Museum and IIRC Remuera library used to have a copy (it's a long time since I emigrated from NZ!). BTW I used to live just round the corner from the Museum as well in Parnell ;)

 

HTH,

 

Tim

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