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Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit


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Nice work on the seat :yes:

 

I think I used some really thin sheet for the side supports, 0.25mm or thinner, it was like plastic paper. With the seat cushion wrinkles, try giving it a light wash with Tamiya Extra Thin cement if you have it available. It softens the edges of the cuts and removes the swarf.

 

Also I really need to get hold of some of the little beads you used as a knob. I used a little misshapen ball of milliput but this is so much better. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Squibby said:

try giving it a light wash with Tamiya Extra Thin cement if you have it available. It softens the edges of the cuts and removes the swarf.

In fact, Squibby, I am really used to do the same technique with the liquid cement (I very often used it on my previous build that was a poor old kit and for which each part - the ones I finally used - required a lot of preparation to get something neat.

Here, I was tempted to use it as you suggest but JMV did not mention that in the DVD (he just grinded the seat surface with 800 abrasive paper and removed the dust with a hard brush). As he airbrushes then a coat of Interior Green before hand-painting the seat Yellow with Vallejo acrylics, I suppose he does not consider necessary to soften more the edges with liquid cement. That said, I followed your suggestion and just applied the thin coat of Tamiya Extra Thin. It is true that on this big enlargement, and before painting, it looks really necessary.

About the knob, I remembered I had ordered not so long ago these great glass balls, very cheap and that will be for 3 modeler's lifes (a lot of different sizes but these tiny ones are particularly useful):

Sr8YuD.png

 

 

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Thanks for posting the above Olivier, I think I might invest in some.

Returning to the question of gunsights, there is a photo in the Mustang " Walkaround " ( a very useful reference ) of an early P-51D with an N9 sight which has a ring sight next to it. Unfortunately it is not possible to see if there is a post on the nose because the pilot is in the way. This is all academic of course if you decide on a K14.

 

John

 

 

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Thanks for the reference, John. I will represent a K 14, indeed, considering it is highly probable that it was the gunsight on a Jan 1945 or later P-51D. You all probably know that, because you are much more competent than me on the matter, but Gaëtan, who replied to me last night, brings this interesting info (for me, at least):

"Le K-14 indiquait au pilote où ses balles allaient toucher en fonction de la déflexion et de la distance, et fut une petite révolution dans l'art du combat aérien."

"The K-14 said to the pilot where his bullets would touch following the deflection and the distance, it was a revolution in the art of air battle"

 

P.S: I have got the Eduard set for Tamiya that looks great with especially very nice seat belts. Got too the Rosie riveter for 1/48, ordered on Unique Master Model.

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As I said just above, I got the set Eduard for Tamiya (ref. 49216). I began to work on the seat belts. To handle the very small parts, I recommend to work on a black cardboard. So, there are less risks to lose a tiny part.

Of course, and differently to JMV who scratchbuilt the seat belts (tin sheet) and so, could assemble them before painting, I will first paint the seat to keep the very neat painted sewings and other details...

The advantage of JMV method is that, the tin sheet being very soft, he could give them more easily the bended natural shape of the seat belts.

The Eduard metal is much harder and it will be a challenge to get this shape of a soft material... On the other hand, let's admire what Eduard can do, giving a very nice texture and very precise sewings... 

 

990N6o.jpg

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Looking good, I'll need to assemble mine at some point. 

Another major advantage of the PE ones is the little buckles and clasps. One thing that plain tape or foil belts always miss.

 

As for bending them naturally I've got a set of the new 'steel series' ones which are apparently thinner and more flexible. I'll soon see if they live up to the expectation.

On my 48th scale spitfire I used the 'super fabric' ones which are like a rubbery membrane, they drape really nicely but don't have nearly as much detail (very 'flat') and no detailed clasps and buckles. I ended up modifying those a lot by adding more straps and 3d detail with spare 'super fabric' material and aluminium tape.

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Before assembling the Eduard PE seat belts, I wanted to have JMV's opinion about this solution. He told me he did not like the PE seat belts, and recommended me the HGW ones (ref. 148007) for P 51D. I ordered them immediately, on the HGW site (they were out of stock on Hannants). They are made of microplastic (probably most of you know this solution, I didn't), with just the buckles PE. I will wait to get them to assemble the seat belts, and will work on other details in the meantime.

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Another great pic due to Antonio. I am still wondering if the hollowed separation (with 8 holes, 2 oval ones hidden by the seat support) was black (like on this pic) or green (like on other ones).

 

nWwxTp.jpg

 

I got too new docs from the musée de l'Air et de l'Espace, especially these ones:

 

tjERrV.jpg

 

 

tM56wF.jpg

I don't think the cushions that equipped the Missouri Armada were so glossy, the comment mentions a post war aircraft.

 

 

P.S: I am sorry, my build goes on still very very slowly for now, but I had few time and I spent it to shoot again my Fiat, following JMV's photo hints... and still docs to analyse and publish here...

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I come-back on the question of the seat cushion color. The only photo we have for now (B and W) of John England in which we can see a bit the seat cushion is this one:

nXjqCr.png

 

Even if the cushion is just slightly visible, and the pic B and W, let's admit that this cushion seems darker than the gloss yellow cushion above... So?

If I turn B and W the pic above with the yellow cushion, I get this:

O6iokb.jpg

 

Even if there is the shadow of England's arm, difficult to imagine here such a cushion, no?

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Hi Olivier!!

the beam with holes was painted in black, it can be seen very clear in the NAA video and in the still frame I posted before here,  I remember that  during  the war there was a normative from NAA to paint everything behind the seat in black  to avoid sun reflections,

OkJ4V6F.jpg

 

in the Korean war, Mustang's cockpits were painted entire in black, that explain that black cockpit of Shimmy IV  which is still unrestored.

PeGUqnT.jpg

about cushions, I am aware of 3 kinds, the first model with (lumps) upholstery finish , with not sure if it is the right term for it, second the yellow one and third with similar shape but in brown finish, also  in some models the base of the seat had a small cushion, wich explain why the seat keeped it's paint in that area.

OZEjt7x.jpg

 

lZJN4Qo.jpg

smYkB3S.jpg

 

rZeOgoz.jpg

 

Edited by antonio argudo
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Hi Antonio!

many thanks for these useful comments and pics!

the more I think about it, and the more I look at our docs, the more I doubt John England had the yellow thick cushion.

The comment above (in my previous post) going with the yellow cushion pic, says:

"during the War, the pilot's parachute was all the padding he had to sit on. The shoulder straps attach to the middle of the back of the seat frame behind the seat".

And indeed, if we consider this pic of England taking place in his seat, difficult to imagine a thick cushion like the Tamiya one. 

KstuIM.jpg

 

So I have changed my mind, my seat cushion won't be yellow and thick, but light brown and less thick, as we can see on this great pic you brought us:

zii74x.jpg

 

This means a deep modif of my seat cushion, that will probably require removing first the 2 lateral reinforcement arms...

I am curious to know what Airfix and Meng provides as seat and cushion...

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Some photos of the Meng sprues as promised, sorry about the quality, there isn't enough natural light today and my photo booth is not set up at the moment.

IMG_1199IMG_1201IMG_1197IMG_1202

 In the first photo the seat support structure is at bottom left with ( not very convincing ) hoses included, the seat armour and headrest is above and to the right.

The second photo shows the seat armour/headrest in the middle with the rack for the radio and battery to the left.

I have included the third photo to give you an idea of how much detail needs to be filled on the upper wing surfaces, my first job when I build it will be to " paint" them with Mr Surfacer and rub it down until just faint impressions are left.

The last photo is to show the wheel well snapped into place under the lower wing, it's the correct shape but actually quite basic compared to Squibby's.

 

cheers

 

John

 

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HI Olivier, that cushion seat looks perfect to me, good job mate, but the  yellow  strap on the top of the seat during wwII was not present, it was cut off and just two pointed tips were left. (see also the  mustang  seat cockpit picture with german stencils above)

kyOpa4I.jpg

mT5g4Wu.jpg

j4oi8Go.jpg

the armour stencil seat written in german has a simple explanation, it belongs to a swiss Mustang!

the Meng's kit seat comes plain with no cushion,  the airfix kit comes with cushion and seatbelts modeled in, somebody was building one in this forum already

cheers

Edited by antonio argudo
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On 09/12/2017 at 16:03, antonio argudo said:

the  yellow  strap on the top of the seat during wwII was not present, it was cut off and just two pointed tips were left

Well, Antonio, this is a scoop for me! are you 100% sure of this info? Indeed, I see on the cockpit picture with german label it has been cut. Do you know why? I had taken care to do it with acetate sheet (The Eduard PE part is much too large and too thick). I will wait you to confirm that (but you seem to be very sure).

I am not completely satisfied with my seat, especially after seeing your pics just above: the cushion should be more separated from the seat. I wonder if I won't remove completely the cushion and scratch one...

I must say I am very impressed by your knowledge and by your ability to find amazing pics. 

There are several versions of this back part of the seat support, what is the most probable on the Missouri Armada?

 

1) do you think I should represent these 2 "nipples"? (I know there is no antenna wire)

Yvte5v.jpg

 

2) here is a version without antenna wire, but there is the seatbelt strip on top...

 G3BSbU.jpg

 

3) this could be the best reference doc to represent this area, don't you think? 

5mIIYk.jpg

 

 

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Looking for a resin naked seat (I didn't find), I fell on these wheels on Ultracast. I think the tyres sculpture is right (there are other kind of tyres) for the Missouri. Do you agree?

They have also seat, but I would prefer a naked seat, on which I would scratch the cushion. Do you know if such a resin seat exists?

dr6svK.png

 

I found also these wheelsEduard Brassin, nice too:

RyAJVU.png

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Hi Olivier,  based on the ww2 era pictures and the this document, the strap or seatbelt guiadance  was not present in the NAA factory production

KvSqsg3.jpg

 

found an ebay seller if you want to buy a mustang cushion:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/P-51-SEATBACK-CUSHION-ASSEMBLY-106-53059-NEW-MANUFACTURE-/292341538251

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WARBIRD-NORTH-AMERICAN-P-51-MUSTANG-NEW-CUSHION-ASSEMBLY-49-53010-/292341537918

 

I think the option n3 is the correct for your Missouri armada model,  and about the tires I'm not sure which one to use, I think there wasn't an expecific patern!

Im glad you are trying to get your Mustang as much accurate as posible  but dont get cought in it, enjoy it my friend, this is just a hobby ;)

cheers

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Waooh! still another great document, Antonio. This assembly drawing of the seat will be very useful to me, definitely.

Of course, no question to buy a 1:1 cushion for P 51D... especially at such a price! :lol:

Don't worry about my mental health, I know I am a bit mad about representing something as close as possible from the original, but I am able to make compromises. An example:

I have removed all the cushion on my second Tamiya seat (I explained above that I had got a second box in case of necessity):

if you are as mad as me, first fill the hollow behind the seat with Milliput, fe (I used a dental resin). Take care, doing so, you will have to remove the corresponding bossage on the seat support, taking care to leave a little gap between both. 

 

NSBRpl.jpg

 

Why do I say this is a compromise? because I won't represent the hollow part of the seat back. I have now to scratchbuild the cushion.

I know my build will take a lot of time doing and redoing, but model making is a demanding discipline, it is so that I like it. 

Again thank you for your great help.

 

All the best

 

Olivier

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The german word " Achtung " has a double sense . As an military order or in case of an  emergency  it means " Watch out ". The civil meaning is "respect ," or " esteem "

I guess it means both  in our case :  " Watch out and respect the Geneva war convention !  "

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Cushion or seat?

I have had a doubt, but not a long time. This is the cushion, definitely, even if it looks quite bright on this pic. Indeed, the seat would not go so height. This means that the cushion is wider and heigher than the seat (hiding it so), contrarly to the Tamiya part (in which the cushion is smaller) and to all what I saw on models up to now (I didn’t see all models and probably I am not the first to represent that). Notice that this cushion doesn't seem to have folds or very few. It looks like a kind of leather imitation.

LyICwq.jpg

This 2nd pic confirms the conclusion above:

BjLyQ0.jpg

 

Here is approximately how I see things: I admit this cushion, probably more reflecting reality, is a bit baffling esthetically. We are used to see cushions smaller than the pilots seats. Well, this won’t disturb me too much, in my modelers philosophy, getting closer from truth is my first goal. 

That said, any suggestion will be welcome!

 

q5VPXj.jpg

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