Jump to content

Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit


Recommended Posts

OK Laurent, thank you for this great pic showing clearly what Tourist meant here. Scribing this long release handle with rounded tips will be delicate, I have to think on how to do that job neatly...

Do you see what he wanted me to remove? if it is the 2 lumps on the shroud, it is ever done. So?

Your opinion about the 2 other corrections he pointed (panels on the tail cone and DFF) would be welcome too...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

OK Laurent, thank you for this great pic showing clearly what Tourist meant here. Scribing this long release handle with rounded tips will be delicate, I have to think on how to do that job neatly...

Do you see what he wanted me to remove? if it is the 2 lumps on the shroud, it is ever done. So?

Your opinion about the 2 other corrections he pointed (panels on the tail cone and DFF) would be welcome too...

 

I am not too sure about what he wanted you to remove.

 

I guess he might want you to curve a little bit more the DFF, it seems still too staight to my eyes, and to Christian's too probably.

 

The two panels on both side of the tail cone are not squared, the pictures are correct.

 

b9ysblM.jpg

 

Cheers,

 

Laurent

Edited by silberpferd
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Tourist (Christian) pointed out, the little button to unlock the canopy on the right-side of the windscreen wasn't present on the P-51D-10-NA from the factory. P-51D-5-NA, D-10-NA and D-15-NA production had an earlier canopy crank assembly which didn't have that external button, and thus there was nothing in that area except for the rectangular main emergency release handle. The later crank design incorporated the external push-button, introduced during, as I recall, P-51D-20-NA production. However, I have seen numerous instances of these earlier D's being retrofitted with the push-button as well - depicting "Missouri Armada", which would place the aircraft in late 1944 or January 1945 at the latest, I don't know if it would have been modified with the later unlocking mechanism/button that early or not. There could have been a Tech Order issued at some point involving this that I've forgotten about.

 

Also, as Christian pointed out, the forward-most access panels on each side of the tail cone should be square on early P-51D's, such as the D-10-NA. They were changed/elongated on later production (D-25-NA/D-30-NA), as shown in Laurent's photos. Note the difference between the main lines of rivets and the spot welds around the access panels.

 

40882571201_ccf7d36eb8_o.jpg

 

40882570081_79f73bf13f_h.jpg

 

40882570151_044b87b8fa_o.jpg

 

40882570641_0e084ba1a4_o.jpg

 

39989153275_ba8abcd24a_o.jpg

 

20796524815_969d1a4730_h.jpg

Edited by John Terrell
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hum... please, chaps, I 'm begging you, no more suggestions about the fuselage sheet, I think I'm gonna get definitely mad with this build, with all these variations, versions, modifs! :lalala:

Me who thought I would have some rest with such a choice, after the Fiat  806 saga...  :huh:

 

kxew9R.jpg

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haha. I understand that you're going nuts with all the details ;)

Nevertheless I'm following your thread daily as it makes a good web 'feuilleton' aside being an invaluable resource for anyone building a Mustang model.

Thanks you and see you au prochain numéro.

Quang

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That’s exactly so, John! And except the Mustang experts (less than 0,01% of the whole population), no one will be able to imagine all the work it has been to be so faithful...

I leave you to go and take my pills... ;)

 

P.S: welcome on the thread, Quang, I see you live in Brussels, my daughter is there too, with her boyfriend, even if she thinks about coming back in France, because of the weather... I am glad to see you follow the thread with interest, thanks for your compliments.

 

Olivier

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18/03/2018 at 18:44, John Terrell said:

As Tourist (Christian) pointed out, the little button to unlock the canopy on the right-side of the windscreen wasn't present on the P-51D-10-NA from the factory. P-51D-5-NA, D-10-NA and D-15-NA production had an earlier canopy crank assembly which didn't have that external button, and thus there was nothing in that area except for the rectangular main emergency release handle. The later crank design incorporated the external push-button, introduced during, as I recall, P-51D-20-NA production. However, I have seen numerous instances of these earlier D's being retrofitted with the push-button as well - depicting "Missouri Armada", which would place the aircraft in late 1944 or January 1945 at the latest, I don't know if it would have been modified with the later unlocking mechanism/button that early or not. There could have been a Tech Order issued at some point involving this that I've forgotten about.

John,

First of all, I am impressed by your knowledge, thank you to share it with us (and thanks to Christian for having warned me on this point and the other ones).

I have 5 questions: 

1) considering that I represent the Missouri in january 1945 (with all her svastikas awards), don't you think it is quite probable that she had got the later crank with the external push-button, even if it had not been installed at the factory? I have to decide if I leave or not the button... What seems to you more probable?

2) John, you say above " there was nothing in that area except for the rectangular main emergency release handle". Do you agree to say the latter was the same than the one we could see on the post# 749 and 750 above? In other words, this fine rectangular part was it the same before and after the adding of the button? All that because before scribing it, I want to be 100% sure... 

3) Is this handle in relief, flat or recessed? It would be more easy to represent it in slight relief (brass 0,15 mm thickness)?

4) On the post#750, this handle is red. Do you think i was red too on a RAF Dark Green camouflaged P-51D?

5) I don't understand how worked this release handle, can you precise please? (maybe Antonio has something on that matter??). I suppose with the first version, only the pilot could open the canopy from the inside, while the later button allowed to release him by opening from the outside. Am I right?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Olivier

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kPxS48.jpg

 

About the DFF curve increasing, I would need a photo showing the thickness of this part. Indeed, curving the DFF has a consequence: the top gets more thick, while I think it should be very thin. The best photo I have to see the DFF thickness is this one:

VbMZB7.jpg

 

We can see that it is much more thin than the vertical stabilizer front part... Imho something as important to take in account than the curved shape...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks a lot, Alexey, it is a great pic that will be very useful. Even before curving  the DFF, the Tamiya one was far from being so thin. And after, still more...

I don’t know if it is an optical illusion, but it seems to be mire thin on the top part.

Pity, the 2 DFF above (Frenesi and Fencer-1 are straight ones, I would have preferred a curved one like on the Missouri, to be 100% sure of the shape... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't quite know what you mean by that, Quangster - they weren't a single/flat sheet, if that is what you're referring to, they had a defined cross-section throughout, just like the later fillet. Both photos you've posted are factory-installed dorsal fin fillets, but are identical as well to the ones provided in the kits for the P-51D-5-NA's that didn't have them from the factory (those built prior to 44-13903, which was the first to have the fillet installed from the factory).

 

Here is a copy of the original NAA drawing for the same, early curved P-51D dorsal fin fillet, which includes cross-section profiles at important locations. The only difference between this factory drawing and the factory part was that the actual fillet was spot-welded together, where as the drawing depicts it as riveted. This original NAA drawing is the same as the "-1 DFF" in my illustrations posted earlier in the thread (and which I traced to create those profiles of the early fillets). This drawing/DFF is correct to all P-51D-10-NA's.

 

Note that the profile cross-section "BB"  of course corresponds to "B" on the side-profile, just as "CC" to "C" and "DD" to "D". Note too that at the cross-section marked "B", there is a panel line/joint there, which is the reason for the doubled rib, joining the forward skin to the rear skin of the fillet.

 

40221184494_ff2928a632_o.jpg

Edited by John Terrell
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waooh! this original drawing from NAA of the P-51D-10-NA is precisely the doc that was missing, with these profile cross-sections. It confirms clearly that the top of the DFF is very thin and sharp. 

I realized too that I have not only to remove but also to add a little to get the correct rounded shape on profile view, and I will do that adding after the 2 half fuselage assembly. 

Anyway, the whole check of this area (with probably again small corrections) will be easier to do after that assembly...

Thank you very much anyway and again!

 

Olivier

 

The only remaining question about the DFF for me is so: on straight versions, it is very thin until this limit which is clear:

Orium7.jpg

 

With the curved shape DFF-1 we have on the Missouri, where precisely the shape does it get wider? A cross-section over the B level would have brought the answer, as I can't find any good pic showing this curved shape on 3/4 view. A point of detail, I admit, but...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, John Terrell said:

I don't quite know what you mean by that, Quangster - they weren't a single/flat sheet, if that is what you're referring to, they had a defined cross-section throughout, just like the later fillet. Both photos you've posted are factory-installed dorsal fin fillets, but are identical as well to the ones provided in the kits for the P-51D-5-NA's that didn't have them from the factory (those built prior to 44-13903, which was the first to have the fillet installed from the factory).

 

 

 

If like you say, 44-13903 was the first to have the fillet installed from the factory, then 44-11222 on the photo I posted should have a field-installed fillet. Or shouldn't it? ;)

 

Retro_Fillet.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44-11222 was a Dallas-produced P-51D-5-NT which had the fillet already installed from the factory, unlike the Inglewood D-5-NA's. That fillet, same as the kit-supplied, match to the NAA drawing I've posted above. What you have marked as the "flat section" is actually triangular as it expands downward on each side from the narrow spine. The cross-section thicknesses are the same as the late fillet - especially at the base, which is identical between both types.

 

Olivier, I have a few photos of one of these fillets on a restoration today which I will post later.

Edited by John Terrell
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have done the last corrections on the right and left half fuselages (square panels on the tail cone, DFF - even if for the latter, as I said above, the last corrections will be done after assembly- ) etc.

I tackle now the flaps, numbered B16 and B17 in the Tamiya kit.

Juan Manuel pointed out that the internal portion (wing root) of these parts are wrong, as the comparison below shows. Furthermore, 2 rivets lines are missing. More, the corrugated surface is not represented on the Tamiya kit. And finally, some other details inside the hinge must not be forgotten. Still work to do in perspective...

 

Z01maA.png

The part B17:

Dk4ojl.png

 

I will use the "Herold's method" Antonio brought us above to represent the stressed surface (my first experience with this technique, happily, I have 2 sets of flaps...)

 

N.B: a close-up of this flap would be welcome, and very helpful in order to represent it as accurately as possible...

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

N.B: a close-up of this flap would be welcome, and very helpful in order to represent it as accurately as possible...

 

Those pictures should help you, hopefully

 

gYbK2ak.jpg

 

uxDrYeD.jpg

 

Cheers,

 

Laurent

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks so much, Laurent, with your pics and the ones I found back in the thread, I have all the necessary to do something convincing... with patience and time!

I have realized that the spaces between rivets were too important on the Tamiya parts, and so, all the rivets lines must be redone:

n1oyRi.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Olivier,

 

As mentioned earlier, here are some photos of -1 dorsal fin fillets on a couple of modern restorations today. These were produced by the Australian Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation to the North American Aviation drawings. Again, the only difference is that these are riveted, where as the original NAA-produced -1 dorsal fin fillets were spot welded (used on P-51D-5-NA's (from the factory and via kits), P-51D-5-NT's, P-51D-10-NA's, early P-51K-1-NT's  and all but the last few P-51D-15-NA's).

 

Note how the edge of the spine remains the same from the forward-most tip all the way until reaching the vertical panel line joint, and from there the fillet spreads out to blend into the vertical tail fin.

 

40237636424_305095a021_o.jpg

 

27074947728_4db85c3b64_o.jpg

 

40237636374_06e3ecdfd2_o.jpg

 

39136427890_65fb4b934b_o.jpg

 

Here is a view from the bottom of the fillet (same for all versions):

 

27075131688_1a601883df_b.jpg

 

40237869454_a1d8061dcc_b.jpg

Edited by John Terrell
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...