Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit

[John Terrell]

Here's a little reference guide I put together concerning the RAF colors which are well established that the 357th used. (I had thought that "Ocean Grey" had been one of the color possibilities for the lower surfaces as well, but after comparing the color chips it appears far too dark.) There is no reference to the RAF "Matt Red" on the IPMS Stockholm website/charts. With some time this weekend, I plan to produce some digital/virtual recreations of "Missouri Armada" with both RAF Dark Green and RAF Extra Dark Sea Green. Based on the contrasts in the period photos of the green top surfaces vs. the grey lower surfaces, my updated thinking is that the lower surfaces would have been a shade of Medium Sea Grey.

Edited February 23, 2018 by John Terrell

[antonio argudo]

Thanks  man, great chart John and very helpful, I did yesterday  my own  "Extra Dark Sea Green"  chip in photoshop after the fabric relic from Merle Olmsted  picture from Bud Andersson web, and I think it matches very well with what you posted,  the pure color is in the center part, I add 5% white  progressive on the top direction and 5% black to the bottom, this color has a blueish tone that remid me of the  USAF  "Dull Dark Green".

cheers

Edited February 23, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

I find it  a very good match with the "Old Crow" restoration as you mention before, it can look very dark  depending on the lighting  conditions

cheers

Edited February 23, 2018 by antonio argudo

[Troy Smith]

one point regarding the IPMS Stockholm listing, it's pretty old, useful, but don't rely on it too much.

 

the other, FS595 is a US Government paint reference standard,   it is not meant to be a comprehensive colour atlas.

(just in case thsi has not been mentioned already)

 

So, while it is widely available,  be aware that a FS595 for a British paint colour is usually  a 'close match'  but not an exact one

 

as John has British Aviation Colours of WW2 paint chip chart,  use that, NOT FS595 'matches'  unless carfefully compared,

from the below  I can see differences between Extra Dark Sea Green and Medium Sea Grey even on a crappy tablet screen...

 

23 minutes ago, John Terrell said:

Here's a little reference guide I put together concerning the RAF colors which are well established that the 357th used. (I had thought that "Ocean Grey" had been one of the color possibilities for the lower surfaces as well, but after comparing the color chips, it appears far too dark.) There is no reference to the RAF "Matt Red" on the IPMS Stockholm website/charts. With some time this weekend, I plan to produce some digital/virtual recreations of "Missouri Armada" with both RAF Dark Green and RAF Extra Dark Sea Green. Based on the contrasts in the period photos of the green top surfaces vs. the grey lower surfaces, my updated thinking is that the lower surfaces would have been a shade of Medium Sea Grey.

 

Regarding model paint,  if you are an enamel user and want accuracy,  then look for Colourcoats from Soveriegn Hobbies,  @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is a member here,  and is interested  in getting colours 'right'  and has adjusted colours when new information is provided,   for example they provide only model paint that has the full range of US Navy blues.

 

I note that @antonio argudo  started this thread over on Hyperscale as well

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1519252716/last-1519345748/(View+All+Messages+In+This+Thread)

 

HTH

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Our first color pic of our aircraft!

Hi Antonio,

you are certainly right about the Buffalo Belle and so I was certainly wrong with this statement. A deception (my excessive enthusiasm and optimism...).

Congrats and thanks for this long investigation.

It doesn't change what I think anyway: like the Desert Rat and the Buffalo Belle, I am 99% sure (until the contrary is shown) the Missouri is very dark Green.

The main deception finally regards the underbody color, for which imho the doubt persists...

P.S: Oh! I had not seen this new p.24, and new developments!

What a lively and fascinating debate!

[John Terrell]

23 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I note that @antonio argudo  started this thread over on Hyperscale as well

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1519252716/last-1519345748/(View+All+Messages+In+This+Thread)

 

If anyone can reply in that thread by providing this link: http://www.cebudanderson.com/fabric.htm - it is the main reason why "RAF Dark Sea Green" is a definitive possibility for use by the 357th FG and the color that was matched when painting Jack Roush's restored P-51B "Old Crow". What other RAF color could it be?

Edited February 23, 2018 by John Terrell

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Ok, so, we would have the RAF Museum Extra Dark Sea Green over the Medium Sea Grey, very probably? I made this comparison, turning the restored Old Crow BW, and we have nearly the same high contrast with the y/r grid:

 

It seems that the Dark Green, more Olive Drab, gives a lower contrast...

 

[antonio argudo]

31 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Congrats and thanks for this long investigation.

Hi Olivier,

 I've had some luck  finding "Buffalo Belle" pics,  I also wanted in my inside it to be Missouri too, but the evidence makes me think it is not... I reeeaallly want to see what colour was used  damn it!!!

so anyway the research continues, maybe we will find some jewls on the way, who knows!

cheers

 what about this one?  this aircraft also joined the 357th, could this be our Extra Dark sea green? I see touch ups  and different shades of green on the nose/fuselage..

Edited February 23, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

21 minutes ago, John Terrell said:

 

If anyone can reply in that thread by providing this link: http://www.cebudanderson.com/fabric.htm - it is the main reason why "RAF Dark Sea Green" is a definitive possibility for use by the 357th FG and the color that was matched when painting Jack Roush's restored P-51B "Old Crow". What other RAF color could it be?

Hi John,

I didn't reply or insisted more on that forum, didnt find very consistent  and  friendly replies from certain user, what a pity!...

cheers

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 19/02/2018 at 18:46, John Terrell said:

The gun camera port (as seen on the inboard left wing leading edge) on 'Missouri Armada' was circular, rather than the square camera port as seen on later variants. The gun camera port/opening was circular until it was changed and made square on P-51D-15-NA and P-51K-10-NT production (and all later examples).

Hi Antonio,

your pic shows also the small circular gun camera hole John mentioned above:

 

Cheers

[antonio argudo]

Hi Olivier,

yes it has it,  and it can be seen it has a red circle around it,  in this "Passion Wagon" picture can be seen some kind of  cover for the gun camera, also noticed that  JMV replicates this item in his Missouri model

cheers

[Troy Smith]

 

46 minutes ago, John Terrell said:

If anyone can reply in that thread by providing this link: http://www.cebudanderson.com/fabric.htm - it is the main reason why "RAF Dark Sea Green" is a definitive possibility for use by the 357th FG and the color that was matched when painting Jack Roush's restored P-51B "Old Crow". What other RAF color could it be?

 

assuming it is even an RAF colour.

 

it should be noted that US Medium Green 42,  commonly used as disruptive patches on USAAF  types

eg  A-20 Boston is US before delivery, Olive Drab with Medium Green blotches,  over Neutral Gray

 

Medium Green 42 is 'matched' to FS 34092,  which is the FS 595 'match'  quoted in the chart below for Extra Dark Sea Green.

 

 

Given Medium Green 42 was a standard USAAF color,  and Extra Dark Sea Green is an uncommon British colour,  has this been checked?

 

I did read the linked thread,  and it is possible that the RAF let behind some paint,   but since the USAAF units dispensed with camouflage there must have been stocks of Medium Green 42 surplus as well,   as it was more  used on bombers,  and the 8th AF had a lot of those....

 

Regarding the rudder fabric, paints can change chemically over time, causing a colour change, even if stored away from light, though the right kind of scanner can determine pigments used IIRC.

 

I'll add in a @Dana Bell  in case he might know more.

 

 

[antonio argudo]

what about this one? "Sweet Hellen" Connie Vogel served as a fighter pilot with the 357th Fighter Group, flying missions out of Leiston, England   , noticed how hand brush painted is the grey, looks very dark right?

 

 

cheers

[Troy Smith]

22 minutes ago, antonio argudo said:

Sweet Hellen" Connie Vogel served as a fighter pilot with the 357th Fighter Group

 

from

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/140906

 

Quote

Connie Vogel served as a fighter pilot with the 357th Fighter Group, flying missions out of Leiston, England. On 18 March 1944, after being attacked by FW190s on an escort and support mission to Augsburg, Germany, he crashed SSW of Ehingen/Donau, at Dieterskirch (Bruehlwiesen plot # 119) near Uttenweiler, Germany. Vogel was seen exiting the aircraft but his parachute failed to open. His body was found by locals and buried in the cemetery nearby. Later, his body was repatriated to United States to be buried in Mountain View Cemetery in Longmont, CO.

Vogel had been flying P-51B 43-12442.

 

pic is a P-51B,  so most likely is standard Olive Drab over Neutral Gray

[silberpferd]

17 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

pic is a P-51B,  so most likely is standard Olive Drab over Neutral Gray

Yes Troy, Sweet Helen is  a factory painted P-51B, and what we see here is the result of the damage done to the paint job when the planes had their adhesive cocoon romeved at the Lockheed reassembly plant at Liverpool, using hot kerosene, as stated in the original caption of the pictures.

 

 

 

Laurent

 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by silberpferd
wrong spelling

[antonio argudo]

Hi Olivier,

there are some small fragments from Missouri/Sad Sack  wreck in a museum in Czech Republic, maybe there is still some piece of green somewhere

Lt Oscar Ridley's P-51 "Sad Sack  He inherited this aircraft from John England, as it was Missouri Armada. This model is on display at the Museum of the Air Battle over the Ore Mountains on 11 September 1944, in Kovarska, Czech Republic. Oscar was shot down. The items on display with the model are from Oscar's crash site, including part of the nose cowling with some of the red and yellow paint still visible.

from : http://www.cebudanderson.com/modgallery37.htm

cheers

[antonio argudo]

Hi Olivier,

I found this beautiful model by  Chris Baltrinic on Bud anderson's web, fortunately one of the pictures is in a very similar position and lighting direction, matches quite well all around one of Missouri's pictures.

here is the model

 

ok, so I took the picture and put it side by side to compare , also chaged the values to get closer to the reference picture

 

 

it is quite a match!!!

the reflection on the wing looks exactly, even the demarcation in the middle of the wing, this can confirm that the wing  didnt have different finish, matt or satin/gloss in different areas  or fuel stains or fresh layer of paint along the wing as we used to think.

it was all the same finish  along the wing, and what we see is just the mere effect of "light reflection" on the wing  like in the model.

as the model seem to have a satin/gloss finish  I also assume Missouri  indeed didnt have matt finish  either

cheers

Edited February 24, 2018 by antonio argudo

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hi Antonio,

Great job with the Chris Baltrinic build, with very convincing conclusions, to which I totally suscribe. So your intuition (post#568) was right.

You deserve the Brit Gold medal 🥇 for all what you ever brought to this thread, congratulations and again thank you.

This last discover is very important, meaning that a mat finish applied on a camouflaged RAF Green like we could see on the 357th FG P-51Ds, is a mistake. The several examples of that fact confirm that imho.

Notice that the Baltrinic build is very nice but not weathered at all, a  respectable choice, but my challenge will be to get this mirror effect on a weathered aircraft, like the Missouri appears on ours pics. A kind of synthesis between the amazingly well weathered JMV build (my reference) and the Chris one, to which we can refer from the finish point of view (I don't think the JMV build would have the mirror effect in the same conditions).

Notice too that the finish of Chris model is more gloss than satin imho. I am not sure you will get the mirror effect on the left wing with satin finish.

All that will require trials on a second wing, that I will do as soon as possible, but I could follow my first idea (my post#491 p. 18) and apply the Marabu gloss varnish thinned with the great Tamiya X-20 enamel thinner. On my previous build, the Fiat, this combination gave a satin/ gloss surface (let's say 6,5/10 on a mat/ bright scale, 10/10 meaning a lacquer mirror effect). Taking part to a contest, it had been slightly criticized on that point (with right) and I had redone the body painting job, choosing the Tamiya Lacquer thinner instead of the X-20, and getting so a more glossy surface, better for a new car even of that period (8/10 on the scale), that would be the definitive one.

 

P.S: I noticed also, on the same model, that the angle that the P-51 fuselage does with the ground is too important compared with the real aircraft. I don’t know what kit he used but this point will have to be checked imho... This would suggest that either the main gear legs were too long, either the tail leg was too short:

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

 

P.S: another question we may wonder is: was the finish the same on the whole aircraft? in other words, shouldn't I use several combinations of varnishes following the areas. Look at the fuselage of the Missouri on our docs really doesn't look bright at all, just satin, no more, while there is a light but real shining effect on Chris build... You'll say maybe just a question of light... Yes, maybe...

To illustrate what I just said, now look at this enlargement of our doc 106:

 

Do you agree with me to say that the red and yellow grid is mat (no shining at all) while the fuselage and the propeller are at least satin, with shining areas... I should certainly take that in consideration, and these differences of brightness will give imho a more natural result.

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

This very important chart deserved to get added to our "best of" docs:

 

If I had to apply the base color paint now, my reference would be the RAF Museum Extra Dark Sea Green for the upper. But of course without any certainty to be right. And you?

For the lower surfaces, probably the Medium Sea Grey from the same RAF Museum chart... 

Notice the more red yellow from this chart, compared with the IPMS one.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 20/02/2018 at 22:03, antonio argudo said:

I think in the  picture above with the Thunderbolts  Taxing, could match with the Rudder Fabric cut off a wrecked P-51 by Merle Olmsted in 1944. According to Merle, this should be very close to the original shade of Olive Drab used on the 357th FG Mustangs at Leiston.

 

 

 

On my Macbook screen, this rudder fabric (mentioned as « Olive Drab ») is very very close from the RAF Museum Extra Dark Sea Green:

 

This is for now the color I would like to get...

When I will be back home (in 1 week), I will try to find the good mixing with Tamiya acrylics, unless someone here has a recipe... 

[antonio argudo]

HI Olivier,

I'll try to respond to your questions but just want to share today's jewel picture from Merle Olmsted's fabric relic, our Holy Grail,  I guess the debate is open

Edited February 24, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

Also I just  order this book, written by Mele Olmsted, hopefuly more precise info  will come to us

cheers

Edited February 24, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

more relics from 357th ,  grey camo fabric piece, not so focus but interesting though!

Edited February 24, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

14 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

You deserve the Brit Gold medal 🥇

thank you Olivier, my honor to contribute to this research, cheers!

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

15 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

P.S: I noticed also, on the same model, that the angle that the P-51 fuselage does with the ground is too important compared with the real aircraft. I don’t know what kit he used but this point will have to be checked imho... This would suggest that either the main gear legs were too long, either the tail leg was too short

I'm sure it is the Tamiya 1/48 kit used,  wich is accurate (not perfect) I think the model picture is in a slightly different angle than the Missouri pic so that's why  the angle dont match, so dont worry about it.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by antonio argudo