Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit

[Biggles87]

Hi Olivier, a quick ( poor quality ) picture of the overwing colours suggested by Revell for the LouIV/Athelene marking option in their 1/32 Mustang. If you are interested in the complete painting guide, drop me a PM with your address and I will photocopy them and send them to you.

 

The colour "H" is shown as matt Dark Green and colour "C" as Nato Olive, but there are no FS numbers to match them with. My first thoughts were that they would have been faded and fresh variants of the same basic colour, but as we have recently discovered, several different paints were used so other colours may have been used to paint over the D-Day and identification stripes depending on what supplies were available at the time. Confusing isn't it?

 

Cheers

 

John

Edited February 20, 2018 by Biggles87

[antonio argudo]

an Allison-powered Mustang in RAF colors, interesting!

[antonio argudo]

another 357th great shot , OLive Drab or RAf colors?

A P-51 Mustang, (C5-K, serial number 43-25039) nicknamed "Lil Kitten" of the 357th Fighter Group at Mount Farm. Image by Robert Astrella, 7th Photographic Reconnaissance Group. Written on slide casing: 'C5:K, Mount Farm.'

cheers

[John Terrell]

As I referred to earlier, 'Missouri Armada' never had D-Day invasion stripes applied, thus there would never have been a need to paint them over like on earlier examples, such as on 'Lou IV' since there was nothing to cover up.

 

At the time of D-Day, in early June 1944, the very first/early P-51D's had full invasion stripes applied to the wings and fuselage. By late July, it was ordered that these stripes, now classified as identification stripes (IFF - Friend or Foe), being applied to newly arrived P-51D's would only be applied to the lower surfaces, and on earlier D's that had full invasion stripes applied back in June, the top surfaces of the stripes were to be painted over. By the fall of 1944, September/October, this was further reduced to only having stripes on the bottom portion of the fuselage and nothing else. Eventually, by early1945, all of this was done away with.

 

'Missouri Armada' didn't arrive in England/begin flying combat missions until September 1944, and thus never had any invasion stripes and the only identification/IFF stripes applied were those that can be seen on the lower fuselage.

 

Antonio, that is indeed another one that was originally bare metal from the factory and was painted in the field by the 357th FG. According to all of the 357th FG experts and historians, the 357th had no access to USAAF paint and only used RAF paints on their aircraft. If I recall correctly, the British were required to provide for all paint requirements by the VIII Fighter Command.

[antonio argudo]

Thanks John for your words,  I assume Thunderbolts had to wear RAF colors like this examples as well?

[Totally Mad Olivier]

24 minutes ago, John Terrell said:

As I referred to earlier, 'Missouri Armada' never had D-Day invasion stripes applied, thus there would never have been a need to paint them over like on earlier examples, such as on 'Lou IV' since there was nothing to cover up.

 

At the time of D-Day, in early June 1944, the very first/early P-51D's had full invasion stripes applied to the wings and fuselage. By late July, it was ordered that these stripes, now classified as identification stripes (IFF - Friend or Foe), being applied to newly arrived P-51D's would only be applied to the lower surfaces, and on earlier D's that had full invasion stripes applied back in June, the top surfaces of the stripes were to be painted over. By the fall of 1944, September/October, this was further reduced to only having stripes on the bottom portion of the fuselage and nothing else. Eventually, by early1945, all of this was done away with.

 

'Missouri Armada' didn't arrive in England/begin flying combat missions until September 1944, and thus never had any invasion stripes and the only identification/IFF stripes applied were those that can be seen on the lower fuselage.

 

Antonio, that is indeed another one that was originally bare metal from the factory and was painted in the field by the 357th FG. According to all of the 357th FG experts and historians, the 357th had no access to USAAF paint and only used RAF paints on their aircraft. If I recall correctly, the British were required to provide for all paint requirements by the VIII Fighter Command.

Thanks a lot John for this very clear and interesting  explanation, I learn a lot from you...

I look forward to read your replies to my other questions...

Your contribution to this thread is huge!

 

Olivier

[antonio argudo]

I think in the  picture above with the Thunderbolts  Taxing, could match with the Rudder Fabric cut off a wrecked P-51 by Merle Olmsted in 1944. According to Merle, this should be very close to the original shade of Olive Drab used on the 357th FG Mustangs at Leiston.

 

 

cheers

[John Terrell]

Olivier, to answer a couple more of your questions:

 

Nothing was done with the horizontal stabilizers from the factory like there was with the wing - no puttying, no silver paint, etc. The reason this amount of work was done to the wing surface on Mustangs is because it was thought that it would increase the potential for the effect of laminar flow over the wing airfoil. 

 

With regard to the trim tabs - some were made of phenolic resin and had very little surface detail while others were riveted metal assemblies. I'm not sure what 'Missouri Armada' would have had, and sometimes there was a mixture of both metal tabs and phenolic tabs.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by John Terrell

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks John! ... but sorry, just to be sure, trim tabs are this?

 

P.S: I know another subject of debates and controversial is the color inside the gear bays. Your knowledge on this matter will be very interesting... 

[Plasto]

When did P-51D’s first start showing up in 8th AF units?

 

May 1944 or earlier /later??

 

I ask as I’m in the process of building a D-5 ‘Ferocious Frankie’  

 

This is a well photographed A/c but after the D Day stripes were over painted on the upper wing / fuselage. So ‘frankie’ Must have been on charge prior to 6th June. Bu I wonder by how much??

Edited February 20, 2018 by Plasto

[John Terrell]

Hi Olivier,

 

The trim tabs are the little extra control surfaces on each of the actual control surfaces. The trim tabs came in both phenolic resin construction (with very little surface detail) and metal/riveted construction. Both types were interchangeable and they were manufactured/supplied by outside contractors, so whatever was available during production is what was put on the aircraft. As a result too, you could have metal elevator trim tabs and a phenolic rudder trim tab, or vice versa, and you see that still on Mustangs flying today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by John Terrell

[John Terrell]

4 hours ago, Plasto said:

When did P-51D’s first start showing up in 8th AF units?

 

May 1944 or earlier /later??

 

I ask as I’m in the process of building a D-5 ‘Ferocious Frankie’  

 

This is a well photographed A/c but after the D Day stripes were over painted on the upper wing / fuselage. So ‘frankie’ Must have been on charge prior to 6th June. Bu I wonder by how much??

 

Hi Plasto,

 

It has been a long time since I read into this specific subject, and I will need to in order to confirm anything I say. I do recall that the absolute earliest D's arrived in England in very late May (the very last days of May '44), but that only a very small handful were actually active/combat-ready at the time of D-Day itself. "Ferocious Frankie" was certainly not among those absolute earliest examples (it was the 451st P-51D-5-NA manufactured), but based on the paint scheme it had in the late summer of '44, it clearly did have full invasion stripes applied initially, which, as I recall, would have been the case for the aircraft only if it had arrived in England at some point by no later than late June/early July 1944, at which point full invasion stripes would not have been applied any longer and only the bottom surfaces/lower half of the fuselage would have had stripes applied. Because "Frankie" had been one of the earlier Mustangs with full stripes, the stripes on the upper-facing surfaces had to be painted out as of mid July 1944 (as I recall) when the change/order occurred, and they used RAF paint available to them to do so (which was also used by the 361st to add some camouflage effect to their bare-metal Mustangs). "Frankie" was serial no. 44-13704, and clearly had full invasion stripes initially, while another 361st FG P-51D-5-NA, the somewhat later-arrived 44-13926, clearly never had full invasion stripes applied.

It is interesting to note the progression of the markings on "Frankie". The earliest photos I've seen start in perhaps late July/early August 1944, at which point the upper surfaces of the wings are completely painted RAF Dark Green and the top portion of the invasion stripes, above the star & bars on the fuselage, is painted over with RAF Dark Green. At this same time, the black ID bands can still be seen on the horizontal tail surfaces, though the ID band on the vertical fin/rudder has been removed. Another photo, taken a bit later, shows the RAF Dark Green stripped from the wings except for where it remained covering the invasion stripes, and the black ID bands on the horizontal tail surfaces have also been stripped off (at least on the upper surfaces). Still, a later photo of the aircraft, from the fall of 1944 (after the 361st increased/extended the amount of yellow on the nose), the RAF Dark Green paint has been completely stripped off the aircraft, as have the invasion stripes on the wings, leaving behind only the partial stripes on the bottom of the fuselage, below the stars & bars (interestingly, the black ID bands, painted on the wings way back when the aircraft first arrived in England with the 8th AF, prior to assignment, still remained intact at this point).

(With regard to when the earliest P-51D's arrived in England - I have a record of P-51D 44-13316, the 63rd P-51D-5-NA manufactured (which became 'Nooky Booky II'), arriving in England on June 4, 1944. It of course received full invasion stripes, but even arriving prior to D-Day, this would have been too little time for the aircraft to have actually been combat-assigned, based and ready for combat by June 6th.)

Edited February 21, 2018 by John Terrell

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Waooh, thank you John for this very clear demonstration about the trim tabs, and for the great pics labelled too! So I have to choose between both trim tabs, as it is nearly impossible to know which ones were used...

 

[Plasto]

Thanks Also John,

 

I have a few more questions so I will PM you to not clog up the build Thread with Mustang queries...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

As I personally think John Terrell is right about the Extra Dark Sea Green on the Missouri (see my post#545 above and how it looks very dark on the doc 23), I tried to find the FS reference of this color in the great "Color Reference Charts - Federal Standard - IPMS Stockholm" site. I found that:

 

 

So,I can as well use the enamel Humbrol 149 (but I prefer to use acrylics for the base coat), or a mix of Tamiya Black Green XF-27 (66%) and RLM Grey XF-22 (33%) or also the ready to use acrylic Gunze H302.

Because I don't have this ref. from GS and because I prefer Tamiya paints (and I have got the XF-22 and 27), I will probably choose the latter. 

I am gonna do trials on my second fuselage (I recall I have got 2 ex. of the kit) and will show the result.

I am waiting for John's reply about the Ocean grey (how could he conclude to this probable color for the underside) before taking a decision about the bottom color...

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I made the trial I mentioned above and I got a surprise (after all, not so surprising if you consider that the RLM grey is not a dark one): the Extra Dark Sea Grey got from the mix suggested by the IPMS chart (post#565) is nice but too light imho. In his great DVD, Juan Manuel Villalba suggested the mix XF-27 x 9 / XF-62 x 1 as RAF Green. This mix gives a darker and imho closer dark green. No varnish was applied on the paints. It would be interesting to check the Extra Dark Sea Grey from Gunze (ref H302) that, I noticed that, is a semi-gloss paint and matches perfectly with the FS 34092. I will probably order it but for now, I should follow (we all agree that it is very difficult if not impossible to be really sure of the color, in fact) JMV for the upper color.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

John has brought us great pics showing how, on a restored P-51, the wings were partially puttied (post#529). Here is a period pic showing a P-51left wing being prepared for the production line. It seems that, unless I am wrong, there are little differences with the limits seen on John's pics (a bit less surfaces on which the putty was applied on the doc below). But maybe on later versions, like -D's ones, the surface concerned was extended...

 

I am in holidays now, very far from my workbench, but, as I mentioned above, I will take advantage to read the O'Leary book, reread this thread from the beginning and read too Antonio, Squibby and Matt threads.

I have brought with me too my Bible, the great FAQ from Juan Manuel (ed. Andrea Press), that the master very kindly offered me.

 

 

[antonio argudo]

Hi Olivier,

I found a better quality picture of Missouri,

the reflection can be seen a bit better,an hypostesis, makes me think that the reflection  area looks darker because it reflects the dark fuselage of the plane,

I think it could be posible to replicate this on a scale model experiment, if I have time I will do it

Also another picture of Missouri after left John england's hands to a new propietary, bad quality but another one at least

 

 

 

 

 

cheers

Edited February 22, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

 another 357th Mustang in a similar position like Missouri which reflects the fuselage codes on the wing

Edited February 22, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

Could be this Missouri on the background?

I would like to   but the nickname size i think is slightly different....

cheers

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Waooh, bravo Antonio, great new docs, especially the first and the fourth! 

2 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

the reflection  area looks darker because it reflects the dark fuselage of the plane,

You are certainly right! but what I wonder is also: why is it so glossy?

2 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

Could be this Missouri on the background?

I would say yes, personally, I think the nickname is just hidden partially (pity...) by the "Ain't misbehavin' " nose. And we have - if it is indeed the Missouri - very interesting infos about the colors: look at that very dark green, and the bottom looks like Ocean grey suggested by John... Our first color pic of our aircraft!

Do you know another 357th FG P-51with such a long name in white on dark green?

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

JMV amazing Missouri (I allow myself to post it as it is public): notice how they look the same, even if, of course, the doc 146 is blur in this background. 

[antonio argudo]

Hi olivier, I'm looking through 357th candidates, will post pictures and names later...

though hard to tell from the small picture, the sizes /color of the nickname matches, but what makes me doubt is the contour of the grey camo on the nose, comparing with Missouri pics, it had a lower and more straight contour line,therefore more separation between the nickname and the grey camo,  though  I am open yet for debate and investigation

cheers

Edited February 22, 2018 by antonio argudo

[Bedders]

5 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

 

Also another picture of Missouri after left John england's hands to a new propietary, bad quality but another one at least

 

 

Interesting that the E is far from straight, and leans rearward quite significantly.

 

Justin

[antonio argudo]

after a long  investigation I think I have a (very) posible suspect identifided as "Buffalo Belle",  my points are:

- the nickname size and shape matches

- the irregualar grey/green demarcation contour nose matches very well

- there is a very particular scratch or chipped shape (metal exposed) under the letter F of the nickname and the grey camo  demarcation, just were the oil leak vent is placed, can be seen in all 3 pictures

- although very blurry  in the color pic, there is something bright in the tail,  to me it is the metal panel of the radar antena (Missouri Armada didn't have it, as Sad Sack  picture shows)

  any  more thoughts?

cheers

Edited February 23, 2018 by antonio argudo