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Olivier de St Raph

Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit

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Olivier, the thing on top of the canopy is a rear view mirror. There were various types on Mustangs, including some Spitfire-style ones, which were mounted in various locations. Some aircraft had them placed on the front of the sliding section, as your first photo shows; others had a similar device (or even two - see George Preddy) mounted on the windscreen frame. Yet others had a more aerodynamic device encased in clear plastic at the front of the sliding section. It seems to have been a combination of pilot's choice and what was available. The photo of Missouri Armada shows no mirror at all - so you might not have to worry about it.

 

Justin

Edited by Bedders

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Thanks Justin, that's what I supposed, and indeed, there is no such mirror on England's Mustang. But what about the antenna wire? I can't imagine such an important element missing... How could the radio work in such conditions? (sorry for my incompetence)

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@Olivier de St Raph As people have been mentioning, those things you point out on the sliding section are rear view mirrors. 

 
The VHF radio antenna as I understand is actually housed inside the little dorsal 'blade'. The wire is for some other system, potentially an IFF or navigation system they used in theatres outside of the ETO.
 
You can clearly see on the photo that the plane you're modelling does not have the wire. You can actually see the little plexiglass patch on the canopy as well. I'd cut out a small oval of clear acetate sheet attached with PVA to represent it.
 
Hope that helps.  
Edited by Squibby

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It does, Squibby, definitely! Now I can see this antenna wire is missing on the JMV build. Though I am not sure he did represent the small plexi patch you mentioned. I would like to see better this patch, do you have a pic showing it clearly?

Thanks anyway!

To be honest, I regret that there is no antenna wire, I would have been pleased to represent it. But if it is so, I will respect truth of course...

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Dear Olivier , regarding the template : Check it out ! There are different distances possible between the single holes . The plate can get shifted  of course if you need other  distances , But in the most cases the template´s variation is sufficient . You will get neat rows of holes or rivet rows .  Many greetings !  Hannes

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Thanks Hannes. I order it. Even if I don't use it in this case, it will be definitely useful some day.

 

I had news from our friend John (vontrips), who pity was banned from Brit, while he was imho right on the content of what he wrote (with probably excessive words, I admit I couldn't read it) in a post. I will write to Julien about that comprehensible but unfair decision. There are different ways to be rude or vulgar. You can be very rude just by your attitude, and without saying a word. Finally, and even if VT was wrong (he had accumulated a righteous anger in front of ingratitude and contempt) I clearly prefer his rudeness to others one...

When Zidane head-butted Materazzi during the finale of the 2006 world cup, he was logically excluded but who was the one real responsible?

 

All the best to all

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As much fun as adding the wire would be I'd avoid any drilling through a canopy if I could :D too much risk of cracking the brittle clear plastic. Also fitting it and keeping it tensioned would be tricky. 

 

On a different note if you want to drill holes in a straight line, you could try using one of those rulers with little indentations in them for riveting. I've got a set of 2x of them (the ones I have are made by a brand called Manwa, but you could probably find something similar in your neck of the woods), one with 1mm and 2mm spaced holes and one with 1.5 and 2.5mm spaced indents. Use a small needle to centre punch and drill out.

 

If you're using a punch/die set (I also use the RP tools punch set, really useful tool) You could try punching the holes in the plastic before cutting out the strip using a guide to keep the holes on the same line (maybe a book or something straight edged placed perpendicular to the punch base).

 

Then again I managed to get the holes slightly wonky on my build anyway :D

 

Also I believe the cross bar has 4x holes in the centre, a small gap either side where the seat rails join in and a single hole in the outside sections. at least that's what I saw in the reference photos.

 

 

 

Edited by Squibby

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16 hours ago, Squibby said:

 

As much fun as adding the wire would be I'd avoid any drilling through a canopy if I could :D too much risk of cracking the brittle clear plastic. Also fitting it and keeping it tensioned would be tricky. 

 

Dear Squibby,

in other times, I would have felt the same as you. But JMV, when I built the Yak 3, made me the perfect briefing to manage the antenna, and I had all the necessary material to feel up for this challenge, especially the great Uschi rigging wire...

 

Thanks for the hints about getting regular holes, I have ordered Hannes system (see above) that must be nearly the same as yours.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Squibby said:

I believe the cross bar has 4x holes in the centre, a small gap either side where the seat rails join in and a single hole in the outside sections. at least that's what I saw in the reference photos

Look at the first pic (BW) I posted saturday at 6:19 am p. 3. I see the holes under the seat support system. They are hidden nearly completely by these arms.

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Hi Olivier. Glad you are progressing with your references. I see that you have posted a diagram of one of the radio set-ups. I say "one of" as I do believe that there could be different radio setups in the Mustang depending on when they aircraft was built or perhaps upgraded in the field. While I'm not well versed in the specifics of what would be applicable for your bird, I just wanted to bring this to your attention since you are very much trying to be as accurate as possible. Maybe others have more knowledge about this.

 

I do agree with the guys above that the antenna wire would have been deleted after the advent of VHF radio kits. The same occurred with the Spitfire and other types. 

 

Andy

Edited by Crimea River

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Hi Olivier

 

A  lot of what you are asking are Hyperscale questions, (large US membership) or ones for the P-51 SIG (Special Interest group) 

one chap who has not posted on here for a while is @Tourist  who is very knowledgeable about Mustangs

see here,  which may well be of use as well

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234977885-p-51d-mustang-interior-colour-question

 

another good chap for mustang info is @ColFord

 

what you need to do is use the serail to pin down the production block (specific changes were often block and/or factory related)  of the plane you are building, and cross reference with photos.  

as Andy points out

3 hours ago, Crimea River said:

I say "one of" as I do believe that there could be different radio setups in the Mustang depending on when they aircraft was built or perhaps upgraded in the field.

 

Two areas you will probably want too look at if you want increased accuracy, Tamiya have a split clear part and frame,  reputed to be a pain,  but Falcon (who make for and Squadron as well) do  vacform replacements which maybe worth considering.

http://falconmodels.co.nz/clearvax/set54.html

 

also, canopies varied depending where/when built

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235029584-p-51d-canopy-variations-a-quick-guide/

see link for variants.

 

the other big glitch is wheel wells,  up until the Tamiya 1/32nd kit, all Mustang kits had the back wall of the well following the door cut out, it doesn't, the back is the main spar.   Vector do a resin well.

 

 I think there have been comments on the shape of the Tamiya prop blades as well.     It's a buit late but you may well have been better off starting with the Meng or Airfix kit see  http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1511575038/last-1511737006/(View+All+Messages+In+This+Thread)

 

HTH

T

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Thanks a lot Andy and Troll for your contribution.

With the few time I have, difficult to go on with my build with so many infos, but I know it is necessary to avoid big mistakes. 

Here are some other pics I found for the England Missouri Armada aircraft:

 

bXaO0u.jpg

 

28CC3h.jpg

 

(bug of my Macbook, this is 22)

 

IgegVp.jpg

 

John England:

 

UMwAfM.jpg

 

MCqrb1.jpg

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These 2 pics, placed the one next to the other one, show that the ventilation hose should go through the biggest and lowest hole of the seat support. I will have to take care of that, even if I am not sure this will be really visible on the closed cockpit.

My biggest hole will be 1,3 mm (Punch and die RP Toolz). I have checked, my hose (1mm diameter), with its hose clamps, can just come into the 1,3 mm hole.

 

xb8abp.png

 

 

Now, here is approximately how I see this construction on a profile view:

AEC9tX.jpg

 

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7 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thanks a lot Andy and Troll for your contribution.

I'm not that bad am I?  ( I presume this is auto correct :rolleyes: )  

 

Olivier, I don't know if you have seen this

 

some good work going on there, including scratch built wheel wells.

 

I note the Super Scale decals paint guide shows the suggestion of RAF paints, as these were camouflaged at unit level.

There are a couple of colour shots here.

WW2colour  film is hard to judge, but if this is anything like correct then this appears to US Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, (see tailwheel door)  though there maybe some record that the 357th used RAF paint?

g4-v.jpg

note this is 414798,   and you are doing 414789,    so this is also a  North American P-51D-10-NA Mustang.  Note canopy shape.

see 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944_1.html

 

note this plane has been fitted with  

P-51DK_05.jpg.

 

looks to be an in field fit as it's been left in bare metal, but I don't know the date of the photo, but look spring/summer, the shots of 'Missouri Armada' are in the winter.

 

Others will know more.

 

HTH

T

 

 

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6 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I'm not that bad am I?  

So sorry Troy, I was probably still a bit sleepy... :lol:

6 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Olivier, I don't know if you have seen this

Sure I did, I am a follower of Squibby's thread, and of course, I saw his great work on the wells.

 

6 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

WW2colour  film is hard to judge, but if this is anything like correct then this appears to US Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, (see tailwheel door)  though there maybe some record that the 357th used RAF paint?

JMV had warned me there would be probably debates about the color. In the lack of certainty, I will follow his steps... 

Furthermore, in your previous post, you had given me several links. One of them took me on the thread "P-51D canopy variations" on BM. In this thread, Jon Kunac-Tabinor suggests himself a link very useful:

http://www.gaetanmarie.com/p-51dk-mustang-canopy-variations/

Here is what would be logically the Missouri Armada:

 

tXIw3d.png

 

 

I sent a mail to Gaëtan Marie (it is a pseudo) about the canopy and the antenna wire:

Bonjour,
j'ai entamé le montage du Missouri Armada P 51D de John England au 1/48 Tamiya (P-51D10-NA). D'après vos informations, si j'ai bien compris, la verrière serait du type Intermediate Inglewood type. Pouvez-vous me confirmer l'absence de câble d'antenne sur l'avion de John England? Par ailleurs, toute info ou document susceptible de m'aider serait le bienvenu.
Bien cordialement
Olivier

 

He kindly replied me very quickly. Here is his reply (sorry, in french, I will do a summarize a bit later:

Bonjour,

 
Effectivement, la verrière montée en usine devrait être du deuxième type, et les photos de l'appareil confirment cela. Le cable d'antenne allant de la verrière à la dérive étaient retirés sur tous les Mustang de la 8th Air Force, la radio associée n'étant pas utilisée sur le théâtre européen. La poulie qui permettait au cable de glisser lorsque la verrière était ouverte était généralement conservé, et il semble que ce soit le cas sur Missouri Armada. Dans certains cas, seul le point d'attache était conservé, parfois l'élément entier (avec un sorte de triangle translucide). Les photos que j'attache vous montreront la différence. Dans le cas de Missouri Armada, je n'arrive pas à déterminer si le triangle a été conservé ou seulement la base. Je penche plutôt pour la première option.
 
S'agissant d'un P-51D-10-NA, il y a probablement le viseur "de secours" (j'oublie le terme français, bead en anglais) situé devant le pare-brise. Cet élément a été supprimé vers la fin de la production des D-10, et pouvait être supprimé en unité. Il ne me semble pas le voir sur les photos, mais c'est tellement petit qu'il est possible qu'il soit simplement invisible sur les photos.
 
Le viseur devrait être du type N-9 ("de série"), mais il est possible qu'un K-14 gyroscopique ait été installé. C'était fréquemment le cas en unité à partir de la mi-1944, et en usine à partir d'octobre 1944 sur les D-20 et suivants. Les photos ne sont pas conclusives.
 
En dehors de cela, je ne vois rien de particulier sur cet appareil, qui semble assez standard.
 
J'espère que cela vous sera utile.
 
Cordialement,
 
B. B  (alias Gaëtan Marie)   (I have cancelled his name)
Edited by Olivier de St Raph

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15 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

the shots of 'Missouri Armada' are in the winter.

How do you know that, Troy? Is there a date for the Missouri photos?

15 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

note this plane has been fitted with  

P-51DK_05.jpg

Pity, we have very few views of the Missouri(up to now, anyway...), and none of them show this right side of the tail (I suppose this radar was only on the right side). It would be great to have more docs, especially photos of the Missouri. Do you know if it still exists, even restored?

 

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Now I come-back on Gaëtan's reply, to which I will add personal comments:

1) the canopy was very certainly of the 2nd type (2nd Inglewood type, see above) what the pics confirm.

 

2) the antenna wire was removed on all 8th Force Mustangs, the radio associated to this wire being not used

 

3) when this antenna wire was missing, we could have 2 versions:

- visible pulley, with the little transparent bulb:

DalaFm.jpg

 

 

- simple "round" trace, the bulb is missing:

mUAAeL.jpg

 

In the case of the Missouri, imho, we have the 2 nd version (just a kind of "scar") of the system that allowed to the cable to slide (see doc. 20 above).

I wonder how I will represent this "scar". Maybe just by roughening a little bit the canopy in this area, using a round mask to get the round shape... Any enlargement of this "scar", on any Mustang, would be welcome.

 

4) Because we have here a P-51D-10-NA, there was maybe a "help sight" ("bead"??) located in front of the windshield, but it is impossible on our photos to be sure.

vVcXql.jpg

 

5) the collimator was probably a N-9 type (serial), but it is possible that a gyroscopic K-14 has been installed. It was frequently the case from middle of 1944. Pity, here too, we would need more pics of this aircraft. It would be anyway a good thing to know exactly when the Missouri photos we have were taken. If we consider the 17 victories (17 svastikas), we may think that it was late in the european theatre, probably after the middle of 1944...

 

P.S: I am still frustrated not to have time to go on with my build, but difficult to leave the "research and doc" front... I would need a clone who would go pro working and would do the research job, while I do model making, as in the movie "Multiplicity"! :lol:

 

 

 

 

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It is easy to sometimes concentrate too much on the research at the expense of the build, but you are providing us with lots of good references all in one place.

 

Thanks

 

John

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Thanks John, I promise I will try to leave a bit the research aspect to focus on my build... But the research aspects are of course necessary for a convincing build...

 

Thanks for your support

 

Olivier

 

P.S: I have learnt this morning the death of Johnny Hallyday, a monument of the french song. I pay here modestly a little tribute to him. He had an incredible energy, and a unique powerful voice. He was a warrior, prefering to die on the scene than listening the medical recommendations when he made his last tour " Les vieilles canailles", while he was ever so ill.

He is definitely in the heart of the french people, even those who are not fans. Rest in peace, Johnny... 

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Olivier,

 

A quick thought on the gunsight. The 357th FG was the first in 8AF to get the K-14 and I think their installation method was adopted as standard. My guess is that England's aircraft got a K-14 quite early on in summer 1944. So any equipment linked to earlier gunsights - e.g. the post on the nose ahead of the windscreen - will probably have been removed.

 

Pity about Johnny Halliday. He was known on my side of the Channel but we know he was much-loved on your side.

 

Justin

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8 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

How do you know that, Troy? Is there a date for the Missouri photos?

Pity, we have very few views of the Missouri(up to now, anyway...), and none of them show this right side of the tail (I suppose this radar was only on the right side). It would be great to have more docs, especially photos of the Missouri. Do you know if it still exists, even restored?

 

 

MAgPgR.jpg

Just from the background (no leaves on trees)  and ground crew in warm clothing.    Not precise,  it could be November to late March.

The kill markings could give a more precise date,  or a date it can't be before at least.   OK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._England

Quote

The unit was assigned to RAF Leiston and after transitioning to the P-51 Mustang, they flew their first combat mission on 11 February 1944. John was promoted to 1st Lt. on 26 October 1943 and by the time he was promoted to Captain on 28 April 1944 he already had 6.5 aerial credits. After his first victory on 8 March 1944, he attained the status of “Ace” in only forty-eight days.

He took command of the 362d Fighter Squadron on 25 August 1944 and continued as the squadron commander until 8 April 1945. He was promoted to Major on 4 December 1944 and continued to fly combat sorties achieving his last aerial victory on 14 January 1945 for a total of 17.5 enemy aircraft destroyed in flight.

so,  the pic looks to be after Jan 45?  Others may know more,   and since you are awhile away from painting, you might want  to ask  on another forum,  or ask the webmaster at Little Friends?

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery.php?Group=357&Style=item&origStyle=list&Item=29&Temp=435&searchString=

there is an email at the bottom.

 

Regarding the tail warning radar,   if you are modelling "Missouri Armada"  as in the pic  above,  it's not fitted,  introduction date  is late 44, and it goes through the fin  on both sides,  as seen in the below link

http://www.duxfordradiosociety.org/restoration/equip/aps13/aps13.html

It says late war,  and it looks retrofitted in the image,  hence the comment about it being unpainted.  I mentioned this as was obvious in the photo.

g4-v.jpg

note the few trees visible are in full leaf,  and the grass has that summer look.

Not conclusive, but additional information to be considered.

Looks as if the canopy has been replaced as well from the 2nd Inglewood type.

 

8 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I am still frustrated not to have time to go on with my build, but difficult to leave the "research and doc" front...

well, there is always the wheel well to do ;)

 

HTH

T

 

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39 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

so,  the pic looks to be after Jan 45? 

Thank you Troy,  I agree with you, it had to be necessary after Jan 45, considering the number of victories...  It was a good idea to look on Wikipedia...

 

45 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Regarding the tail warning radar,   if you are modelling "Missouri Armada"  as in the pic  above,  it's not fitted,  introduction date  is late 44, and it goes through the fin  on both sides,  as seen in the below link

Ok, understood, I won't represent it, thanks.

 

46 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

well, there is always the wheel well to do ;)

and some other little things too... ;)

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For the small ball, I used Micro Glass Balls from Green Stuff World. For this step, I followed JMV, prefering to cut the acetate foil (0,5 mm width) than using the Eduard P.E part, too large. Not unhappy to go back to my workbench, even for a little step...

 

VJUrxY.jpg

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