Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Antonio brought us above this photo. Did you notice that there is a rear view mirror on this P-51 Mustang with J. England on board? But the aircraft is numbered 413735, while the Missouri was numbered 414789. Was this aircraft with rear view mirror the Missouri? More, the LPS Hobby decal sheet above (post#471) shows also a rear view mirror on the Missouri... So? I am not an expert, but as I have decided to represent the Missouri with its 18 svastikas (doc 20 and 23), I won't represent the rear view mirror (notice that this pic below is older than the other one, with "only" 9 svastikas as it seems). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 HI Olivier, nice you answer first about the NA and NT, I was about to post it when you did I think it is nice to post it anyway cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Antonio brought us above this photo. Did you notice that there is a rear view mirror on this P-51 Mustang with J. England on board? But the aircraft is numbered 413735, while the Missouri was numbered 414789. Was this aircraft with rear view mirror the Missouri? More, the LPS Hobby decal sheet above (post#471) shows also a rear view mirror on the Missouri... So? I am not an expert, but as I have decided to represent the Missouri with its 18 svastikas (doc 20 and 23), I won't represent the rear view mirror (notice that this pic below is older than the other one, with "only" 9 svastikas as it seems). Olivier, I answer your question before at the 403 post: The list of aircraft accidents at Leiston airfield do not show any involving John England., Possibly the list is not complete. On 2 November, his un-named (as far as we know) 44-13735 was lost with Major Lawrence Giarrisso, when a wing separated during combat. At this time, however, it was G4-N, which it probably became after repairs from the 1 October accident. In mid September, 1944, 4414789 was ferried to Leiston and was assigned to John England. Unlike his other P-51s, which had been coded G4H, this one was G4-E. He flew it for the remainder of his long extended combat tour, which ended in January, 1945. It now had 18 of the distinctive 362nd Squadron victory symbols, for his total of 17.5 victories, only one off that of top group scorer, Kit Carson. John England survived his long combat tour, but was killed in an F-86 accident in 1954, in France. After Major John England completed his extended combat tour in January of 1945, 44-14789 was assigned to pilot Lt. Tom Ridley, who re-named it Sad Sack, a poplar military cartoon character of the time. He flew it until 18 April, when he was shot down, the last 357th combat loss of the war. Ridley bailed out successful, and with the war over, soon re-joined the squadron. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Thanks Antonio, and sorry, I had not well understood, especially "un-named". And what about the K 14? can we be 100% sure the Missouri was equipped with this gun sight? Another comment, about the docs 20 and 23: I have noticed on the doc 20, that there is a mirror effect on the left wing: the svastikas are reflected on it, what suggests imho that the green paint was not flat there but at least semi gloss. We could imagine that this reflection was due to the rain, but... ... the doc 23 (photo done most likely in nearly the same conditions) shows that the floor was dry (except a small pool of water). Conclusion: Of course, these are just observations and maybe I am wrong, but I think I will apply a satin varnish, more probable imho than a mat finish, unless a new info contradicts these observations... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Hi Olivier, I had the same doubt when I first saw that picture, but after more research now I am 100 % it is a K-14 gunsight, the position or hight (N-9 was in a lower position), the shape and all mustangs of the 357th FG using this model proves it, some pictures the K-14 in the 357th mustang the N-9 gunsight , see that the position is lower than the K-14 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 about the reflection of the kill marks on the wing, I personaly dont think it has to do with the rain, I remember that pilots comented about how slippery was "walking on the wing to the cockpit" this was due of how smooth the wings were finished (puttied and sanded and polished) to achieve the laminar flow, that to me explain the reflection, also in some of the videos I posted before you can see how slippery the crew move on the wing. by the way, look this beauty: cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Ok Antonio, all is clear, thank you for these confirmations. The "Butch Baby" pic seems to be a WWII period photo, not a restored aircraft, and this nice color photo shows indeed a satin finish paint for the Dark Green. The comment about the slippery wing for the pilots is very interesting and inspiring... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 I had noticed that the Tamiya limits between panels were quite thick compared with the very thin ones of the real aircraft. I wanted to have a clear mind about it and I made this comparison, that confirms what I had felt: It is much better to first get more thin and less deep limits before creating the rivets lines and stressed surface, for which the Jolie Hélène will be again my main source of inspiration. I have sanded these limits with 400 grit first, and then 1000 and finally 1500, and it is much better already. A patient work to get something more convincing, definitely. More soon... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 it is maybe not evident on this photo but most of the panels separation have been decreased in deepness and in thickness (except on front and rear parts of the aircraft, not yet done). The work is in progress, with stressed surface and rivets, taking inspiration on our great doc 137 and 138. I stop for today now. More soon... Olivier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 nice update Olivier, keep the good with the rivets! found another greaat shot in color of the 357th Mustang cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Hi Olivier, Another thing that need to be worked on is the dorsal fin. Tamiya gives us the straight one, that was used on P-51D-20-NA and D-20-NT onward, but was sightly curved on earlier D models. Regarding the gloss paint, pilots sometimes asked the ground crews to plolish the paint with wax, to gain a few mph, this explains the glossy finish on Missouri Armada. Keep up the good work. Laurent 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) good point Laurent, also saw that in some Luftwaffe fighters like 109 or 190 cheers Edited February 17, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) got wax? Edited February 17, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 8 hours ago, silberpferd said: Another thing that need to be worked on is the dorsal fin. Tamiya gives us the straight one, that was used on P-51D-20-NA and D-20-NT onward, but was sightly curved on earlier D models. Sorry Laurent but do you mean this? I suppose because except that, I don't see any difference between both tailfins. 8 hours ago, silberpferd said: pilots sometimes asked the ground crews to plolish the paint with wax, to gain a few mph, this explains the glossy finish on Missouri Armada. Very interesting info, thanks! Do you know if this wax was applied on the whole aircraft or only on some areas (the wings, especially)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Sorry Laurent but do you mean this? I suppose because except that, I don't see any difference between both tailfins. Very interesting info, thanks! Do you know if this wax was applied on the whole aircraft or only on some areas (the wings, especially)? Nope, I meant this: The whole plane was usually waxed. Laurent 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 8 hours ago, antonio argudo said: got wax? Very interesting and useful pic, Antonio, showing exactly the same mirror effect as on the Missouri. Do I dare a gloss finish?? On the wings only? Here are questions I wonder now... The Butch Baby on post#481 seems to show a quite glossy finish on the fuselage too, despite her age. And even the propeller is brighting too on the Cooter of post#485. Ok, it is a sunny day, but... I begin to think I could use a mix of satin and gloss varnish, or even totally gloss! A solution could be to use the Marabu gloss varnish thinned with Tamiya X-20, giving a slightly shining look (for a more bright one, the Tamiya Lacquer Thinner is more indicated). What do you think of that idea? I will do trials and comparisons, anyway, before applying the varnish. But I am not yet there!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Thanks a lot Laurent. I just got your reply while I was myself posting the #477. I see you are an early riser, like me... I will do that subtle but necessary correction, of course! And thanks too to confirm the whole plane was waxed. I feel like Icare, moving forward to the truth, and it is very exciting. Thanks to all of you, experts of the P-51, helping me in this quest! So: and: N.B: about the paint, in the Michael O'Leary book (I regret there is no french version), I learnt something most of you probably ever know: on p. 130, he explains that "as continued allied victories became a harbinger to the war's end, the need for camouflage diminished", and that is the reason why the onward versions would be kept Bare Metal, what will also positive consequences on costs, simplicity and performance ("the deletion of the camouflage will eliminate about 16 pounds of finish from the P-51 series airplane"). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 9 hours ago, antonio argudo said: good point Laurent, also saw that in some Luftwaffe fighters like 109 or 190 Yes, Antonio, a real mirror effect here, indeed, and a surprise for me, who thought that WWII aircrafts had always to be painted mat or semi mat! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 The correction on the dorsal fin has been done, subtle. I have also added some screws that were missing on the Tamiya kit, using the bottom of a fine metal tip. Warmed above a flame, this allows to create small round mark on the plastic: And now a question: can I really use the rear part of the Jolie Hélène as a reference? (if yes, there are many small corrections to bring to the Tamiya kit). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: can I really use the rear part of the Jolie Hélène as a reference? (if yes, there are many small corrections to bring to the Tamiya kit). I found on the net that the Jolie Hélène was a P-51D-5-NT s/n 44-11222 of the 368th Fighter Squadron, 359th Fighter Group. What were the differences between such a version and the P-51D-10-NA the Missouri was? Did these differences affect the outside? A reply to that question would allow me to know in what measure the great pics we have of the Jolie Hélène may be used as a reference for the Missouri, as we have so few docs for the latter. N.B: on the same site (in french), I learnt too that the pilot we can see on the Jolie Hélène pics is the Lt William Foster, who would have given this name to the aircraft. And the photos would have been done between may and july of 1945. P.S: Oh! I just realize that the Jolie Hélène site I mentioned above is from Gaetan Marie (a pseudo), who had brought me useful infos sooner (see my posts#91 and 93 on p. 4). You can buy on ebay the very nice drawing he made of the Jolie Hélène (he made also other versions, including the Lou IV that I built several years ago, with much less details and improvements than today...) https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0ahUKEwjP-qiS9q7ZAhUC-aQKHWxgDGIQFghCMAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.fr%2Fitm%2FPrint-P-51D-Mustang-Jolie-Helene-359th-Fighter-Group-1945-by-Gaetan-Marie-%2F222705487670&usg=AOvVaw0bx6EPRxEz_V0VTsLnzyUK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 17 hours ago, antonio argudo said: In mid September, 1944, 4414789 was ferried to Leiston and was assigned to John England. Unlike his other P-51s, which had been coded G4H, this one was G4-E. He flew it for the remainder of his long extended combat tour, which ended in January, 1945 So, Antonio, unlike what I thought, these pics (doc 20 and 23) of the Missouri would have been done end of 1944 or at the latest in January of 1945? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 That's very useful information on the suffix, as it usually appears on the data block on the nose, it will help determine which canopy to use amongst other things. I would be inclined to use a semi-gloss or satin finish for the polished areas, I think full gloss would be too much on 1/48 scale. John PS. I remember reading somewhere, a long time ago, that late model Bf109s were delivered with a satin finish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 I have used the rounded bottom of my 15c blade to decrease still more the limits, and it is much better now, quite close from what they are on the real aircraft. A patient work, to which are added many more rivets lines... The pic below shows that the tail has been improved a lot, but this this small panel is not very good on the Tamiya kit. I am gonna try to replace it, made by scratch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 13 minutes ago, Biggles87 said: it usually appears on the data block on the nose, it will help determine which canopy to use amongst other things. I didn't know that the data block appeared on the nose, do you have a pic showing this mention? About the finish, you are probably right, anyway I have time to think about it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 The data block appeared on the left side of the nose, sometimes directly ahead of the windscreen side panel or below that position. I think it sometimes got painted over, obscured by kill markings/nose art or worn away with time but it is visible in several of the photos on this thread. If you look closely at the photo of Missouri Armada in post 492 above I think you can see what's left of it just ahead of the kill markings. Cheers John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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