Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit

[harveyb258]

She's coming along nicely, Olivier! Great eye for detail, as always! Keep it up, my friend!

 

Cheers, H

[Biggles87]

Very neat job on the exhaust drilling Olivier, especially considering the size, 

 

John

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot Harvey, glad to have news from you! How are you? And your Fiat? I have to confess I have so few time and I am so focused on my own build that I forgot to see your progress. I promise I will very soon !

All the best

Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks to you too, John. Your encouragements, hints and kind comments despite my low progress are much appreciated !

[harveyb258]

Hi Olivier.

The Fiat is coming along nicely, thank you. The chassis frame has now been stripped and in the process of being thoroughly sanded, polished and clear coated in prep for final assembly! Not much has changed healthwise ( it sounding like I may need to have a by-pass ), so that's another work in progress! 

 

Cheers, H

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Antonio, would you have HQ blueprints of the P-51D?

I have these ones, not bad, but the lines are a bit blur... (I have increased the contrast to see better the rivets lines).

I am gonna do rehearsals, I know creating these lines is a delicate work (JMV warned me and suggested me to train first).

 

Top view:

 

 

Enlargement of the top view (right wing):

 

Enlargement of the top view (tail fins):

 

Bottom view:

 

Enlargement of bottom view (left wing):

 

Enlargement of the bottom view (fuselage and tail fins):

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

After a little training, I jumped in the rivets lines, first on the right up wing. It is my first experience with riveting, and I must say I worried a lot about that step. Finally, it is over all a patience and precision task. Of course, this is just a first step. More soon...

 

 

P.S: I come-back on the film "Dunkirk" to say that I saw the bonus included in the Blu Ray, there is a very interesting and nice doc about the way they represented the amazing aircrafts sequences. In this doc, you will see through others restored Spitfires and P-51D Mustangs (the latter only in the bonus, of course, as the USA were not engaged in the WWII in 1940). I highly recommend this Blu Ray DVD!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I finish the rivets lines blueprints set with these two ones.

Left side:

 

Right side (reversal left side):

 

 

[antonio argudo]

OH BOY,  I'm a bit late, I wanted to warn you before that Mustangs had the wing panel lines and rivets puttied, and then painted in silver to increase aerodinamics, there are some diagrams I can bring,

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by antonio argudo

[antonio argudo]

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=46527&page=1

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?138466-P51-Mustang-wings-painted-or-not

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1311353982/P-51+Mustang+Question+with+pic.....

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=40939

Edited January 28, 2018 by antonio argudo

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks Antonio for these new docs and links.

About the question of rivets, if I understand well, you mean that most of them were erased on the bare metal aircrafts, especially on the top of the wings, what I ignored of course.

But the Missouri Armada is RAF Green on top, and Medium Sea Grey on the underside. So?

JMV represented these rivets lines on both top and bottom, and I am confident in him.

And the docs I posted above show rivets lines, that means they were present on some aircrafts.

So I suppose that your comment concerns only bare metal ones. Right?

 

All the best

 

Olivier

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

We don't have so many docs of the J. England Missouri Armada P-51D. That is why I post here this very nice and interesting cutaway drawing - but partially wrong, pity - of the Missouri.

The wrong points concern through others the white strips on the tail fins, the antenna and the rear view mirror. Notice that the artist represented rivets on the top wings.

 

Furthermore, I can't help adding to the numbered docs the one Antonio brought us above. Even if it is a bare metal restored aircraft, it brings very nice details especially the rivets (1) on the fuselage and canopy support, the fuel cap (2) and the small alu rivets on the inside edge of the canopy.

 

[Crimea River]

I'm with Antonio on the rivets. This is a reference that I've found useful:

 

 

The wings would have been puttied and painted with silver dope, left that way on silver aircraft or painted over with camo colours. This applies to the wings only. The Mustang at Seattle's Museum of Flight represents this very well:

 

 

Andy

 

 

 

[Biggles87]

Sorry Olivier, the filled rivets applied to all P-51s and was a standard part of the wing construction.

The laminar flow wing of the Mustang required a smooth surface for maximum efficiency so the rivets were filled and sanded smooth to at least 40% back from the leading edge, then sprayed with primer and finally aluminium paint/lacquer. The flaps and ailerons were natural metal and perhaps sometimes the gun access hatches. Some people say that the rivet filling was removed/lost over time but I don't think that happened as there was a special procedure specified by North Amrican to prevent it when camouflage paint was removed.

Pictures of Mustangsi in Korea can be seen with smooth painted wings, with primer showing through on worn areas.

You had done such a good job on the rivets too, but it's obvious that you strive for accuracy and a Mustang wing with all the rivets showing is not accurate I'm afraid.

 

John

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear friends,

the doc Andy posted above mentions, up and left: "filling and painting natural metal Mustangs". Are you sure this diagram concerns also painted aircrafts like the Missouri?

I tried to find pics of the top wings to have more certainty (I must say your comments put me in a complete doubt) but I didn't find painted and non restored top wings pics. Antonio?

I must precise too that JMV sands with 800 or 1000 abrasive paper on his rivets, so they become very slightly visible (that sanding job was my next step).

Anyway, I will ask him about that debate what were his sources.

It is important for me to have certainties, what is not the case now.

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

[Biggles87]

All Mustang wings were treated that way, wether they were destined to be camouflaged or " natural metal" according to the excellent book " Building the P-51 Mustang " by Michael O'Leary, which contains period photographs of the different stages of construction and finishing. As I mentioned earlier it also quotes the North American procedure for removing camouflage paint without removing the putty from the rivets, which says to me that the camouflaged wings were originally finished in the same way.

There are examples of P-51s ( Kermit Weeks' aircraft ) where the rivets are exposed but restored warbirds are notorious for having " amendments " which did not appear on the originals.

 

John

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Ok John, I understand all that and it is very convincing. I will ask Juan about that. I know he used the japanese reference book Aerodetail n°13 (sold out, pity...), in which I suppose he found the rivets lines. 

Meanwhile, I stop any riveting activity on wings, until I am 100% sure of what is right.

 

P.S: I have just bought the O'Leary book you mention and should get it within about 10 days.

 

Thanks again for your contribution 

[Biggles87]

I think you'll find the O'Leary book very useful, I do. The photos are all black and white, which might put some people off, but they were probable taken with medium format cameras and are well reproduced, and I prefer to use actual photographs for reference where possible rather than diagrams.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

ps another useful reference, if you can find one, is the Squadron Signal " Walkaround "

Edited January 28, 2018 by Biggles87

[Totally Mad Olivier]

49 minutes ago, Biggles87 said:

I prefer to use actual photographs for reference where possible rather than diagrams.

I can only suscribe to that point of view, which is mine too! For my previous build, the Fiat 806, I always preferred period photos to all other kinds of docs, including blueprints. But photos may also give a wrong perception. We must remain very careful with any kind of docs, definitely.

[Garry c]

I am starting on the Airfix P-51. My plan is to fill the wing panel lines with AK white putty.This putty shrinks when it dries leaving a hint of a panel line.

" Normally this shrinkage is a problem." he says as he fills a seam for the third time. "In this case it's not a bug, it's a feature" as the Sales Department says.

 

Watching with interest,

Garry c

[antonio argudo]

Hi Olivier, as folks said before it was a  standard procedure for al Mustangs including camuflage ones, here is the official procedure document from NAA

 

you might enjoy this color pics as this Mustang belonged  to the same squadron like Missuori Armada

cheers

[antonio argudo]

I remember reading that after sometime the putty could crack and needed some touch ups, this are great pictures from  unrestored Mustang wings, although in bad shape you can see the red putty and the grey primer given

cheers

[Biggles87]

Great pictures from Antonio, I particularly like the one of the underside showing clearly that the large panels ( stress doors ) between the undercarriage and flaps were fixed in place with dome headed rivets.

 

john

 

[antonio argudo]

yes John, those are the wing fuel tank panels, I guess they are not fixed rivets, more likely screws or fasteners in case to remove the panels to access the fuel tanks 

cheers

Edited January 28, 2018 by antonio argudo

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have got Juan's reply to my questions about riveting.

1) he agrees about the general practice that was to apply a heavy putty and priming due to the laminar flow design of the wings, but he says that the P-51D was built in several factories because of the heavy demand of planes and thinks that, combined with the expensive processes (such the heavy priming), it was not rare to see P-51D without the priming, like this one:

 

2) however, he admits that it was much more probable to find the puttied rivets surface on the wings of the 357th P-51D. He himself hesitated before taking a decision, but considered that the green satin finish would not reflect the light as the original alu priming, leaving visible some of the wing stress and the flushed rivets, especially in a worn aircraft such the J. England one in 1945, after 17,5 victories. That is why he sanded the rivets to the minimum for less visibility (in fact, when his P-51D is out of the studio lights, it is difficult to see the rivets on the model). I recall Juan is a pro photographer taking a lot in consideration light parameters.

 

Now look at this photo he took at Duxford:

 

I made an enlargement for a better perception:

 

My own conclusion: it is absolutely possible to leave the Tamiya wings completely smooth, as they are, but for a worn aircraft like England's one in may 1945, I personally prefer wings looking corrugated  by stress. And the best way to get this corrugated look is to follow Juan, creating rivets lines and then sanding them to reduce them to a minimum. It is what I will do, even if I admit this choice may be discussed.

Anyway, I want to point out the quality of this debate, and I want to thank everyone here, especially Antonio, who brought us one more time amazing docs. 

 

All the best

 

Olivier