Star and bar markings on late war USN aircraft

[Spitfires Forever]

Greetings,

i am getting ready to decal my Corsair -4 in a late WWII glossy blue scheme but had a few questions. The few pics of late war -4 Hogs show the aircraft in either non-spec glossy, or glossy sea blus but the star and bar insignia have the darker blue surround, whereas the Hellcats coming off the line from Grumman were painted with the white star and bar (no blue surround) on a seemingly darker glossy dark sea blue. We're the Corsairs coming from Vought and Good Year all painted with the insignia in the blue surround. Also, as to size of the star and bars used on both were the Hellcat and Corsair painted with the same size and diameter insignia? Any help would be great. I will be decaling my Hog similar to one that flew off the Hornet during the invasion of Okinawa, which shows the blue surround like the other model Corsairs on deck.

Cheers

SA

[Troy Smith]

HI Randy

 

I think this has been discussed before,   I'mtrying to remember where. 

I'm pretty sure @Dana Bell has posted on this,    IIRC Grumman stopped applying the Insignia Blue surrounds on their initiative,  the official change was later.

Note, using "@"  symbol in front of a members user name should send them a notification that they have been mentioned in a topic.

There was a brief mention on this on @Tailspin Turtle blog

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/sea-blue-vs-insignia-blue.html

Quote

oward the end of World War II, the complex Navy camouflage scheme for carrier-based aircraft was gradually replaced with an overall Sea Blue color. However, the national insignia was retained intact. This provided examples that directly compare Sea Blue and Insignia Blue. (Note that the colors may not have been accurately depicted in the original that I scanned, much less on your computer screen.)

It was eventually suggested, probably by Grumman, that the Insignia Blue surround of the national insignia was redundant and should be eliminated on all-blue airplanes. It was reportedly deleted well before the official authorization to do so was issued in June 1946.

 

The sea-blue story is complicated by the fact that according to Dana Bell, "There were two completely different versions of ANA 623 Glossy Sea Blue. Citing the instability of the original pigments, in 1947 BuAer reformulated the color and issued new color chips. Modelers have been arguing about this for years, not realizing that some of us have the early chip (on heavy card stock) and others the newer chip (on a metal plate). The newer chip is indeed darker and is also a bit greener."

The new blue paint was also notably tougher and faded less. Note the difference between the two Corsair pictures above.
 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Spitfire addict said:

We're the Corsairs coming from Vought and Good Year all painted with the insignia in the blue surround.

Did Goodyear ever build -4 models?  

 

FWIW all the wartime pics of F4U-4's I have seen have the Insignia Blue surround.

 

I have asked about lack of wartime F4U-4 photos as well

Looking through the Flickr pics in the link Jim posted...

  Quote

F4U-4's of VBF-86, USS Wasp summer 1945

 

I don't know the  insignia sizes,   but you should be able to get a reasonable idea by just taking measurements off the model compared to photos.

 

Others may well be able to give an exact information.

 

here's the Detail and Scale on the F4U-4  to -7,   which may help

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Detail-Scale/56-Vought-F4U-Corsair

volume 1 and the F6F volumes and a load more are here

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Detail-Scale

 

 

this site has some of the clearest description of USN and USMC WWII camouflage and markings I have found, this is about national markings

http://www.pmcn.de/English/USN Markings II/USN Markings II.htm

 

other pages have the development of the carrier unit markings.   Well worth a read for anyone interested in USN markings.

 

 

 

HTH

T

 

 

[Guest]

As always, thanks again Troy. I imagined that the Grumman glossy dark sea blue was different from Vought's so my -4 was painted in more of a spec sea blue. It may not be totally accurate but close enough for government work. From what I have been able to read it seems the -4 acquitted itself well yet was the trickiest to land of all the Corsairs. Ken Walsh flew the -4, white 13 I believe. He was a local from Orange County California where I currently reside.

Thanks again

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

Ken Walsh flew the -4, white 13 I believe.

 

 

There was another shot  of the side that's gone.

 

Walsh flew a birdcage #13 earlier on.

[Dana Bell]

Hi SA (and thanks Troy),

 

There are two little-known issues with the white-only late-war US star:

 

1) The Navy and Grumman agreed that the blue background was unnecessary against a dark blue background and dropped it.  At the next meeting of the Army-Navy standards group, the Army was upset and demanded that the Navy use the agreed blue and white insignia.  The Navy relented and wrote to Grumman ordering a return to the full insignia.  The blue back ground would again be dropped after the war, when the Army/Air Force found that they didn't need the Insignia Blue on their night fighters.  (Note that there were a lot of wartime Navy aircraft without Insignia Blue on their national markings - the good idea seemed to have caught on regardless of orders from higher up!)

 

2) The photos that Grumman sent with their original recommendation showed a white star tangent to an Insignia Blue disc with white bars added - but no Insignia Blue border to the entire marking.  I've seen no written explanation for this variation, but it appears to me that Grumman wanted to use up some old star-and-disc decals and simply add white bars.  That is just a guess as to the reason, but there are a few wartime images that seem to show the same insignia variation, while most images show the white-only version.

 

Vought may have never gotten around to the change before it was cancelled.  All wing panels were made by Briggs, and though there is early correspondence about problems with the insignia paint, later correspondence talks about handling the insignia decals.  (Sand the leading edge to smooth the airflow, etc.)  Vought and Goodyear might have continued to use up their stock of decals until after the war.

 

Officially, there was only one wartime Glossy Sea Blue, though Vought drawings show Non-specular Sea Blue as an anti-glare panel.  (The two paints were different colors, as well as having different gloss factors.)  At one point Vought discussed applying a gloss coat to the upper surfaces of existing four-tone scheme wing panels.  This would have been close enough for government work, but the Navy said no.  Still, one wonders what might have happened to the Navy's rejection as it slowly worked its way through channels?  (There was a second Glossy Sea Blue, but it wasn't introduced until after the War.)

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Guest]

Thanks Dana, always a pleasure to get your expertise on these matters. So the markings were not sprayed on as I have always assumed. At least I know which decals to use, and I picked the right color too. From the few pictures of the late WWII -4 Hog that I have seen I should be alright with my kit. I always try to get as close as possible without counting too many rivets. Thanks again!

Cheers

 

P.S. Do you have any new books on the horizon?

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

P.S. Do you have any new books on the horizon?

 

@Dana Bell has mentioned the archives have enough new  info on F4U-4  IIRC .....

Given how good the two F4U-1  books are a follow up on the -4 would be a treat 

[Guest]

Looking forward to a book on one of the best performing aircraft of WWII. From what I understand the Hobby Blob F4U-4 early version kit offers Ken Walsh's white 13 markings as an option, but for June of 1945 there sure isn't 21 kill marks/flags included, so is it possible the scheme is inaccurate? I wasn't going to do that one anyway. I have been looking for the Aeromaster USMC Aces decal sheet which supposedly has the proper markings for Ken Walsh's aircraft, but as usual it is a very old production and is as rare as hen's teeth. I will stick with White 2 from the Hornet, should be pretty easy. I will weather the plane with sketching chalks, my airbrush skills are not to the level that I can get that accurate worn out look that so many USN aircraft had after long shipboard deployments. Thanks again for your and Dana's efforts above and beyond the call of duty, this is what makes Britmodeller stand out among the other forums. Always a pleasure.

Cheers

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

@Spitfire addict ... i dont have the aeromaster sheet but i might have the old microscale sheet with walshes markings. I will check tonight when i get to my office. The markings i have are for a Dark sea blue -4. With white 13 with large kill tally. I think its sixteen kills but havent looked for awhile at the sheet. I’ve seen the aeromaster sheet you mentioned and that had a similar set of markings. However i think they have a green clover behind one of the 13’s. If i find i do have the sheet its been used as i have done walsh’s early birdcage from the same sheet. But you are welcome to those pieces you need.  It wouldnt include stencils or national markings. As the sheet never had those. I will check and post the results in about 2-3 hours. 

 

Dennis

Edited November 4, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Guest]

Hey, thanks Dennis, much appreciated. Let me know what you actually have and we can go from there.

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

this is the missing image from above of Ken Walsh "13" after 21st victory.

 

 

I'm  sure I saved a bigger one,  but as can be seen there are 20 flag decals, hence chipping.

 

also

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?1978-100-years-of-Marine-Corps-aviation!

Quote

To celebrate 100 years of USMC aviation excellence, I took a few photos of the AirVenture Museum's F4U-4 Corsair, finished in the marking of Marine ace Kenneth Walsh. Walsh was the first Corsair ace and the fourth highest Marine ace with 21 victories during World War Two. Enjoy!

 

3 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

From what I understand the Hobby Blob F4U-4 early version kit offers Ken Walsh's white 13 markings as an option, but for June of 1945 there sure isn't 21 kill marks/flags included, so is it possible the scheme is inaccurate?

 

Trumpeter 1/32nd kit has them

 

note the museum and box don't get the yellow or white nose ring.

 

The Hobby Boss 1/48th kit gets a  bad rep in many places, (and it's the only one of their Corsair family worth the bother) but the main parts are a good match for the Tamiya 1/48th kit,  while the Hasegawa kit gets lauded over the  Academy,  but the only real difference is the Academy upper spine is too wide,   otherwise  the kits are a good match to each other,   and this  means both have too deep and "square" fuselages with the wings slightly too low.

For my sins I spent some  time trying to correct the Academy fuselage,  using the Tamiya as template, and eventually I bought a Hase F4U-4,  and  was very surprised to find out that Academy basically copied Hase,  but adding the over wide spine.

FWIW I got the Academy fuselage to a better shape,  but then realised sorting out the wings would mean adding  spacers  between centre section and wing to make up for the amount trimmed of fuselage ...... and into the box of "later"  it went.

cheers

T

Edited November 4, 2017 by Troy Smith
tidy up

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

@Spitfire addict,

    Ok this is what i have it may or may not work for you. This is whats left from a sheet of decals made in the late 1980’s. It is microscale sheet #48-97. They should still be good as I’ve stored them in plastic bags for years. It originally had both of Ken walsh’s corsairs the birdcage and the -4. What i have is the #13 with 16 kill marks not his final tally the other #13 has sadly gone awol. I have two other #13’s but from a Tamiya decal sheet. Also you might be able to use your #13’s as you would only need it for the starboard side. 

This what i have ... not much but it has the kill markings with the 13 under them.

 

I have zero need or use for them. They're yours if you want them. I would send them as soon as i can get to the post office. Sorry i didnt have more. 

 

Dennis

[Guest]

Beautiful pic, thanks for posting. The Museum in San Diego gas a beautiful AU 1 that is pristine. In regards to the various 1/48 Corsair kits I probably have mentioned this before (probably mentioned many things before on this site, just getting old I guess) but the severe lack of dihedral on the Academy Corsair's wings are what drives me crazy, as well as almost impossible to correct, and it just seems that the HB kits seem a little porcine, like their Hellcat and F-100 kits. I think if any of the model kit manufacturers ever made a perfect kit there would be a collective heart attack and all the modelling forums would be bereft of anybody over 50! And, if anybody ever releases a decent Spit Mk XIV I wont live long enough to build it! Anyway, after looking at both kits, and my wallet (I'm so broke that I can't even afford to pay attention) that the Hasegawa kit was my best bet. Thanks again my friend.

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

What i have is the #13 with 16 kill marks not his final tally

 

note this is 20 kill decals,  and no chipping,  but some careful  dabbing with GSB and your away.

 

Regarding the Microscale sheet,  I tried to find information on the scheme of F4U-4 of Silber with the wing stripes but with no luck.

6 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

the severe lack of dihedral on the Academy Corsair's wings are what drives me crazy, as well as almost impossible to correct, and it just seems that the HB kits seem a little porcine, like their Hellcat and F-100 kits.

I'll have to check the  Academy dihedral,  I  have a couplle I got really cheap.

 

I don't think the HB F4U-4 is too  fat,  but another  thing  to check.   My model  space is basically unusable at the moment, so I'm not about to start pulling out  the project boxes,  let alone documenting the results! 

6 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

I think if any of the model kit manufacturers ever made a perfect kit there would be a collective heart attack and all the modelling forums would be bereft of anybody over 50!

A fundamentally correct shape,  detail correct to within reasonable detail,  sensible engineering, no trendy recessed rivets and decent plastic is what would my 'perfect kit'

Something a tyro can build out the box and get good results, but will allow additional detail. 

IE , if current  Airfix got to use Eduard's toolmakers and moulding/plastic.

6 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

if anybody ever releases a decent Spit Mk XIV I wont live long enough to build it

One of my projects is the "recipe"  for correcting the Academy XIV,    initial butchery suggests that all major shape errors can be corrected with "some modelling skill"  except for the spinner,   which can be got as a spare from the Airfix Seafire 46/47 if  you build it as a Mk.47....

Again,  see my "shelf of doom" modelling space for lack of progress/documentation of this.....

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Troy Good catch on that i was tired and the old Mk 1’s were distorted when i wrote that. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

@Spitfire addict,

    Ok this is what i have it may or may not work for you. This is whats left from a sheet of decals made in the late 1980’s. It is microscale sheet #48-97. They should still be good as I’ve stored them in plastic bags for years. It originally had both of Ken walsh’s corsairs the birdcage and the -4. What i have is the #13 with 16 kill marks not his final tally the other #13 has sadly gone awol. I have two other #13’s but from a Tamiya decal sheet. Also you might be able to use your #13’s as you would only need it for the starboard side. 

This what i have ... not much but it has the kill markings with the 13 under them.

 

I have zero need or use for them. They're yours if you want them. I would send them as soon as i can get to the post office. Sorry i didnt have more. 

 

Dennis

 

[Guest]

I would be more than happy to take those decals of your hands. I have always been a big fan of USMC aviation so the Hog would be a great addition. I have built a whole slew of F-18's all in squadron markings for the 3rd MAW squadrons. MCAS El Toro was a phenomenal place to watch the Marine aircraft take off because the original Marine Air Museum was next to the active runway so ear plugs were mandatory. But, I digress. If you would not mind PMing me I can give you the particulars. Thanks again, and If I can reciprocate somehow let me know, I have some rare Spitfire decals if they are of interest.

Cheers

[Guest]

Hi Troy, as to the Academy Mk XIV, I do have the DACO correction set and Falcon canopies (the academy canopies are totally unrealistic)  but have not taken the plunge. I have seen Brett Green's article on the conversion but for some reason the FR Mk XIV seems to be the version of choice. I have yet to see an E model done with the DACO set. I am still hopeful that Eduard, or Airfix (the logical choice) will produce a Mk XIV out of their Mk XIX. Bottom line is every kit has its warts, it's just the ones with the long black hairs sticking out of them that make some kits hard to love. Meanwhile I got kits stuffed everywhere, some fall on my head when I open the closets (my wife just loves that but I tell he to store her stuff somewhere else) meaning I got plenty to build, but of course not much room to store them once they are built. I am still looking for a tarmac at home for my Lancaster, and right now my wife's thermos collection is going to go bye-bye. Thanks again Troy, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

back to Corsairs

found this lovely shot 

 

"Vought FG-1D, No 600, "Miss Lace", VMF-122, pilot 1Lt Don Wilson, Peleliu, 1945

 

I don't know how much difference it being a Goodyear built plane makes, but it a pic I've not see before. There are 6 or more if this plane/pilot if you google image the caption.

 

 

On 5/11/2017 at 00:28, Spitfire addict said:

Airfix (the logical choice) will produce a Mk XIV out of their Mk XIX

The XIX kit is not set up to do a XIV.

It would only take Eduard too tool up up some new fuselages and radiators and props, without pulling out a kit.

On 5/11/2017 at 00:28, Spitfire addict said:

I do have the DACO correction set

the Daco set is not very good IMO

the new nose while it has a correct size nose ring and spinner, does not correct the cowling depth problem,  and this is only fixable if you thin the wing.

The Daco set I have (got as part of a job lot of Spit bits) has poor fastener detail, and there is then the problem of grafting it on.

But, this is not really thread for this.

 

cheers

T

 

[Guest]

Nice picture, and in regards to the Daco set, just shows the need for a new tool kit. I wonder what a Seafire would have looked like in glossy dark sea blue?

Cheers

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hmmm sounds like a good idea for a what-if ? 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Spitfire addict said:

I wonder what a Seafire would have looked like in glossy dark sea blue?

absolutely lovely.

 

Here's a PR IV in Bosun Blue to give you an idea

 

 

my Photobucket  embed fix is working,  but may not  display for everyone.

from

 

[Guest]

I like the way he got the weathered look on that finish, i am hoping to be able to do that in the future. But I just love the glossy dark blue Hellcats. The CAF in Camarillo has a -3 in Mc Campbells markings, gorgeous!