Jump to content
This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

Ex-FAAWAFU

Shagbat! Mr Mitchell's other design classic...

Recommended Posts

Going back to the exhaust on the bottom two pots, it may have actually been for cabin heating.  The mighty 207th Aggressor Wing (dH Devon C Mk 2) had the cabin heater pipe through the exhausts.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not impossible... though there’s no visible means of getting said heat down into the cabin.  And of course the fuselage had two large hatches “venting to atmosphere” (as engineers seem to like to describe an open hole).  Put me down as sceptical!  

 

(Mind you, if this was the real reason, perhaps this example of fine British engineering was what inspired the heater in the early Land Rover; driver remains freezing while passenger in danger of 1st Degree burns to the shin).

 

Both Sea King and Lynx had cabin “heating” which drew from the engines.  Believe me, you had to be very, very, very cold to subject yourself to a face full of not-very-diluted exhaust gas; I don’t think I ever used it - I’d rather be cold than feeling sick (I‘m picky like that).  I am one of those weirdos who actually likes the smell of burned AVCAT (much to my wife’s incredulous horror) but preferably not directly into my face, and definitely in low doses.

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I am one of those weirdos who actually likes the smell of burned AVCAT (much to my wife’s incredulous horror) but preferably not directly into my face, and definitely in low doses.

Oh dear! that puts me in the weirdo category as well then as I like the smell too. I once got into trouble with Mrs Martian for soaking some cotton wool in white spirit and burning it in my room to try and impregnate it with such a s smell. Mrs Martian can be a bit unreasonable at times. Sadly the smell didn't linger for long.

 

Martian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about the soot marks on the ceiling?

 

Right, no one mention Germolene, Bostik or Araldite.

(I think we're safe with cooked pork products though)

(I had bacon banjo's for lunch, Yum)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the easiest ways to get a nostalgic smell is to replace the oil in your petrol lawnmower with Castrol R30. The smell of WW1 aircraft and Bugattis every time you mow the lawn!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

How about the soot marks on the ceiling?

 

Right, no one mention Germolene, Bostik or Araldite.

(I think we're safe with cooked pork products though)

(I had bacon banjo's for lunch, Yum)

I only used a small amount and thus avoided soot marks, otherwise you would be conversing with the ghost of a Martian! :dalek1:

 

Martian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mind the Germolene, it's Mrs P's predilection for TCP that kills my nasal passages

 

I wonder if Poundland might have AVTUR (CAT?) in in one of their esoteric air "freshener" ranges

 

Burnt mmm

 

The first time I alighted from a Britannia Airways Boeing 737 at Aeropuerto Ibiza and scented that aroma over a brilliantly hot breeze

 

Magic

 

And watching (and hearing) them all fly the landing slope in front of the hotel listening to Son Of Jamaica and other classics of the day

 

Happy days

 

 

Now I must concentrate on the Shagbat.

Edited by perdu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, perdu said:

AVTUR (CAT?)

I think one would have to be a serious connoisseur of burnt fuel to be able to tell the difference between AVCAT & AVTUR by smell alone. Mind you, with the breadth of talent available on Britmodeller I wouldn’t necessarily rule it out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

58 years ago the family moved from inner city Manchester to one of its Cheshire suburbs. The new house was just a  mile  away (and down wind) from the perimeter of Ringway airport. It wasn't until 25 years latter when I came to work at Boscombe Down, that I realised that the scent of burnt AVTUR made me home sick. Even now when the office window is open and a whiff of exhaust blows in I'm taken back to the glorious 60's summers and the excitement of seeing a Vanguard land amongst the constant stream of Elizabethans, Dakotas, Viscounts, DC 4's and Vulcan's on test flights out of Woodford.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We had an air-conditioner fitted into the VCR at Liverpool and originally the inlet was only a few feet above ground level adjacent to the British Eagle apron. When they started a Britannia the air in the VCR turned blue ( literally ) but the smell was great. Unfortunately the boss was present one day when it happened and the inlet was repositioned quite soon after.

 

Johm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That reminds me of the Hardened Personnel Shelters on the RAF Germany bases (and probably elsewhere), the air intake for the air filtration system was mounted adjacent to the soil drain stink pipes! It made for a 'pleasant' working atmosphere. ;)

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Aeronut said:

That reminds me of the Hardened Personnel Shelters on the RAF Germany bases (and probably elsewhere), the air intake for the air filtration system was mounted adjacent to the soil drain stink pipes! It made for a 'pleasant' working atmosphere. ;)

Not sure that I fancy that smell for the Martian cave.

 

Martian the Fragrant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/20/2017 at 11:59 AM, HomerJ_757 said:

Going back to the exhaust on the bottom two pots, it may have actually been for cabin heating.

Cabin heating was by sheepskin jacket, and I have seen reference to a petrol heater that could be fitted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

25 yrs in Betty Windsor’s Flying Circus as a sooty (aircraft engines) and been flying in helicopters for the past 11 yrs, Avtur, the real man’s aftershave!  Love the smell of burnt Avtur!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, perdu said:

I wonder if Poundland might have AVTUR (CAT?) in in one of their esoteric air "freshener" ranges

AVTUR, AVCAT, JET A-1, F-34, JP8, etc etc - all essentially the same thing, fuel that you put into turbine engines.

There are minor variances with freezing point additives (the Navy get funny with RAF supplies with this), corrosion inhibitors and flash points.

AVCAT, AViation CArrier Turbine fuel, AViation TURbine fuel.

 

It does have an addictive smell when burnt, I used to have to follow behind VC-10s before they went on flight-test, a lovely smell, and if I may say a wonderful noise!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread and thanks for the photos and details.

 

I'm also building AA5R, a bit behind you, from the box without the PE, but some specific questions....

 

- on the nacelle, you've used part D12 rather than D19.  What is the difference?

- should the landing light be fitted in the lower wing or not?

- I had presumed this was an ASR aircraft so I was planning to blank off the bomb racks but I see you have fitted them.  Reading your post properly it was a trainer so I guess the bomb racks would have been fitted and used.

- the decal sheet instructions show the tail wheel was fitted rather than the spatted water rudder - any idea if that's correct?

 

More generally, as Airfix (annoyingly!) don't include a parts list - about the only criticism I have of their new style instructions - can anyone identify what the following are and confirm or otherwise my guesses:

 

- D40: storage bins?

- D26: ??

- D27: fire extinguisher?  Compressed air bottle?

- D42: cockpit heater?

- D24: heaving lines?

- D43: stowed dinghy?

- D07: oil cooler?

 

Sorry in advance if the answers are already on the site somewhere and I've missed them.

 

Bryan

Edited by bryanm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bryanm said:

Great thread and thanks for the photos and details.

 

I'm also building AA5R, a bit behind you, from the box without the PE, but some specific questions....

 

- on the nacelle, you've used part D12 rather than D19.  What is the difference?

- should the landing light be fitted in the lower wing or not?

- I had presumed this was an ASR aircraft so I was planning to blank off the bomb racks but I see you have fitted them.  Reading your post properly it was a trainer so I guess the bomb racks would have been fitted and used.

- the decal sheet instructions show the tail wheel was fitted rather than the spatted water rudder - any idea if that's correct?

 

More generally, as Airfix (annoyingly!) don't include a parts list - about the only criticism I have of their new style instructions - can anyone identify what the following are and confirm or otherwise my guesses:

 

- D40: storage bins?

- D26: ??

- D27: fire extinguisher?  Compressed air bottle?

- D42: cockpit heater?

- D24: heaving lines?

- D43: stowed dinghy?

- D07: oil cooler?

 

Sorry in advance if the answers are already on the site somewhere and I've missed them.

 

Bryan

D12 vs D19 - I am not sure what the difference was; photos suggest that (just as with the exhaust, as we have seen) individual airframes varied.  To be honest, I went for D12 because Airfix suggested it for the FAA scheme, and I am building a FAA machine; I THINK that my only photo of AA5R (see below) suggests D12, but it's not 100% conclusive.  My photos from Yeovilton suggest that there could be other designs, neither of which is provided by Airfix; to be honest I don't think it really matters.  The Walrus was a workhorse, and the more I study photos the more I appreciate how widely they varied in details between individual airframes.

 

D26 is the folded back headrest of the (folded) co-pilot's seat; when the seat was rigged the headrest folded downwards.  You can see part of it in this photo (mine, from Yeovilton last week - incidentically, as discussed elsewhere, the light in there is very low and I am deeply suspicious of the lurid green colour that this photo seems to show).

37861985924_96ca5d75b2_h.jpg

 

D27 good question - my guess is compressed air, but…?  Clear pictures of the inside of a Walrus are as rare as rocking horse poo - particularly of an original, non-restored one.

 

D42 is the folded co-pilot's seat; look at the Eduard PE set (even if you don't buy it, you can see the instructions online, which make this much clearer).

 

D24 & 23 are, as you suggest, cable reels; again, reference shots are your friend here - most Walruses seem to have flown rigged with a line running from each of these drums, through a slot in the rear gunner cockpit ring, to a small connector low on the fuselage a couple of feet behind the forward catapult spool (at the step in the boat hull) - the connector is visible on the right here (again, my photo from VL):

26802040119_4421c797f3_h.jpg

 

...and the line can be seen in this evocative shot of a Shagbat on a cruiser catapult:

26802039549_eb459d4f55_b.jpg

 

I am not 100% certain what it was for.  For a while I thought maybe steadying lines for hoisting the aircraft out of the water (see the video posted earlier in this thread), but I have photos of a Walrus being hoisted back on board a cruiser where those lines are rigged but not in use (i.e. they are using steadying lines, but not using the ones we're talking about for that purpose).  Since the aircraft was designed as an out-and-out amphibian, they might have been designed as lines to secure the aircraft to something when afloat?  (After all, she carried an anchor!).  Once you know this information, you can work out what that curly thing is that Airfix have moulded on the back of parts D23 & D24 - it's meant to represent a coil of rope wound round a cleat ...but you only tell that when you already know what it is, which rather defeats the point in my opinion.

 

D43, yes, I think dinghy (but again I am not 100% certain)

 

D07 no idea, though oil cooler seems plausible - but trust me, you cannot see it when the nacelle and engine are built, so I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Landing light or not - some aircraft had it, some didn't.  I know this is frustrating, but it's reality; the FAA Museum aircraft doesn't have one, the RAAF Museum yellow one does - and I have seen at least one reference photo that appears to show a double lamp in the port wing.  K8341 above doesn't have it (though it does look as though someone dinked the lower port wingtip recently, and the upper port wingtip seems to be missing altogether...!), but this (colourised?) one below does:

24706489838_9f613d4589_b.jpg

 

If it helps you to decide, the only photo I have found of AA5R is this one, and that seems to show a landing lamp (as well as the line discussed above).

24706489698_a771a20a53_c.jpg

 

Only the RAF used the Walrus as a dedicated ASR aircraft (though later in the war - notably in the Pacific Fleet - the FAA had a Walrus embarked in each carrier for that rôle - the equivalent of the 50s-70s plane guard helicopter).  RN Walruses were multipurpose - originally designed to spot fall of shot for battleship guns (and actually used as such at least once; hence the "Spotter of Spartivento" scheme offered by Airfix), but also used in anti-submarine, communications, squadron hack and pretty much anything you an think of.  AA5R, however, was definitely NOT an ASR aircraft; 751 NAS was one of the Observer training squadrons.  The above photo shows light series bomb carriers (I think - they are partially hidden by the port float), but not bomb racks.  My Dad's log book has sorties in different Walruses that involved dropping smoke floats, practice bombs and depth charges (not all in the same trip!), which is why I intend to fit LSBCs at least - I might yet leave off the bomb racks.

 

Again, that photo clearly shows that AA5R had a tail wheel rather than the rudder fairing.  I very strongly suspect that the Xtradecal designers used this very picture as their source; I certainly haven't managed to find any other shots of this particular airframe.  I assume that the engineers removed the (water) rudder fairing from aircraft that didn't plan to land on the water; 751's Arbroath cabs only operated from runways, so it would be one less thing to keep well-maintained.  Incidentally, Airfix provide a part for the tailwheel without water rudder fairing, but there is no reference to it in the instructions.

 

Hope that helps! 

 

Crisp

 

[Edit: one thing seen on many Walruses but not included in this splendid Airfix offering is a baffle forward of the Observer's windows (which opened by hingeing at the top) - presumably this was to lessen the gale blowing into the Looker's face, chucking his charts around etc.  Looking again at this picture of AA5R, I think she has the baffles fitted - there is a distinct shadow ahead of the Observer's window in exactly the right place, and I think AA4T probably has it, too.  I have the Special Hobby kit in my stash, and I seem to recall that they did include this thing as a piece of resin.  I shall dig it out forthwith - I can either nick it or (more likely) use it as a pattern from which to scratch build one.]

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, 71chally said:

AVTUR, AVCAT, JET A-1, F-34, JP8, etc etc - all essentially the same thing, fuel that you put into turbine engines.

There are minor variances with freezing point additives (the Navy get funny with RAF supplies with this), corrosion inhibitors and flash points.

AVCAT, AViation CArrier Turbine fuel, AViation TURbine fuel.

 

It does have an addictive smell when burnt, I used to have to follow behind VC-10s before they went on flight-test, a lovely smell, and if I may say a wonderful noise!

If you wonder why the Navy gets a bit anal about flash points and the like with aviation fuel (and, indeed, why they were so desperate to move to turbine engines in the first place), then look up the HMS Dasher disaster from 1943.  She exploded in the Clyde approaches, killing 379 of her ship's company.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@bryanm re your part query,

 

D07 I would say it's part of the engine mounting for the kit with maybe some representation of the air compressor.

The doghnut shaped oil tank is in the very nose of the nacelle with the oil cooler within that hole in the middle, D10.

D27 is the air bottle for the wheel braking system

D42 represents the folding seat for when the second pilot is on board in the training role.

D43 represents the propeller and the engine covers, the dingy is stowed stb'd side fwd of the rear gunner hatch, so probably part D40 in the kit.

 

The two cables that come out of the rear gunners position to just behind the u/c struts are drogue cables, for attaching the two sea drogues, also known as sea anchors.

These sea drogues are stowed in containers, parts D23 & D24.

Edited by 71chally

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 71chally said:

@bryanm re your part query,

 

D07 I would say it's part of the engine mounting for the kit with maybe some representation of the air compressor.

The doghnut shaped oil tank is in the very nose of the nacelle with the oil cooler within that hole in the middle, D10.

D27 is the air bottle for the wheel braking system

D42 represents the folding seat for when the second pilot is on board in the training role.

D43 represents the propeller and the engine covers, the dingy is stowed stb'd side fwd of the rear gunner hatch, so probably part D40 in the kit.

 

The two cables that come out of the rear gunners position to just behind the u/c struts are drogue cables, for attaching the two sea drogues, also known as sea anchors.

These sea drogues are stowed in containers, parts D23 & D24.

Brilliant!  That makes perfect sense now, and explains why the other end of the drogue was permanently rigged to the fuselage; the TAG simply chucks it out of the back and lets wind and current do the rest.  The Sea King sea anchor is very much the same idea, and also permanently rigged.

 

As a matter of interest, where are you getting these gems of info from?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to show that I am still working on this model as well as pontificating (and building Seafires), my Dad now has a seat and some straps to hold him and his mates in:

38523824386_e451be7457_c.jpg

 

Getting pretty close to finishing inside now - the main thing left to do, apart from a little work with the trusty Prismacolor silver pencil, is the two Observer's windows; the frames (PE) are built, but I have still to glaze them and (obviously) fit them in position.

 

None the less, this is what the internals look like as we close in on putting much of this away from view for ever!

37692747775_6ba9db23c8_c.jpg

 

Note also that Airfix's spares department came up trumps, and I have a replacement nose.

 

More soon

 

Crisp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That interior is just superb, makes you want to climb in and fly.

Also makes you realise how well that interior was laid out.

 

My info, comes from a lifetime of studying things I shouldn't have, and not enough on things I should have.

Knightleys' book, Walrus & Stranraer is a god send for anyone interested, and I have a copy of an AP - as an aide memoire!

 

Getting back to heating briefly, the Walrus also carried electric 'body jackets' to keep survivors warm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×