Jump to content
This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

Lawzer

Fw190 d13 paint scheme

Recommended Posts

so I'm pottering about with a hobbyboss fw190.

 

now apologies if this is the wrong forum but because i'm VERY colour blind the paint guide I can't really make out:

 

55ea53c4e310a.jpg

 

the underside fine but from what i can make out the wings/top fuselage is rlm82 with rlm83 "squiggles" and on the fuselage sides a mix of rlm83 and rlm82 with some rlm75 (on wings too) thrown in for good measure.  No hard demarcation at all.

 

actually is most of the fuselage side rlm76 and the cammo kind of just imposed over the top?

 

sorry - i know it lists the colours but for me they kind of melt into one :(. Guess it won't make much difference when i paint it (haven't looked to see if i can tell the difference between 82 and 83 yet.....).

 

cheers

 

ian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 minutes ago, Lawzer said:

 

actually is most of the fuselage side rlm76 and the cammo kind of just imposed over the top?

 

 

Hi Ian - looks that way to me...

...paint the whole fuselage in the underside colour then crack on with the mottling.

The wings and tail fins are solid colour with 'squiggles' over the top - to my aged eyes at least.

Is there a WIP anywhere - looking for a bit of inspiration...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello lawzer ... if you look closely under the wing crosses. To me it looks as if its the standard RLM 74/75/76 scheme. Then on top and fuselage the two greens are over sprayed everywhere except the crosses. HTH

 

Dennis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, BIG X said:

 

 

Hi Ian - looks that way to me...

...paint the whole fuselage in the underside colour then crack on with the mottling.

The wings and tail fins are solid colour with 'squiggles' over the top - to my aged eyes at least.

Is there a WIP anywhere - looking for a bit of inspiration...

'Fraid not steve....I started this over the weekend - joy of a kit.  First dabbling with pe ;). Just have a look at your 109 wip for inspiration!!! :)

 

6 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hello lawzer ... if you look closely under the wing crosses. To me it looks as if its the standard RLM 74/75/76 scheme. Then on top and fuselage the two greens are over sprayed everywhere except the crosses. HTH

 

Dennis

Cheers - I'm a bit off paint yet but that's a help! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jerry Crandall's "Eagle files #2" is about the restoration of that aircraft, and the sequence for the historically accurate repaint - excellent book, if you can find a copy.

 

Image3paint sequence2

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tail-Dragon said:

Jerry Crandall's "Eagle files #2" is about the restoration of that aircraft, and the sequence for the historically accurate repaint - excellent book, if you can find a copy.

 

Image3paint sequence2

 

Cheers!!!!! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that is what you call a painting guide :clap2:

bit worried about that spirally nose though - do you have a decal for that :worry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tail-Dragon said:

Jerry Crandall's "Eagle files #2" is about the restoration of that aircraft, and the sequence for the historically accurate repaint - excellent book, if you can find a copy.

 

 

it's "out there" as a pdf.   

 

A couple of points,  amazingly considering how rare the D-13 was,  the airframe still survives,  though almost didn't ...

 

 

blinkin'  broswer crashed... 

 

http://www.cebudanderson.com/yellow10.htm

 

some shots after capture

324cb7391ff73d6c144a06373dd44f64.jpg

 

note RLM 75 front lower wing,and mottle on gear  doors

see restoration

yellow13.jpg

 

 

FW+190+D-13+R11+W.Nr.+836017+Yellow+10.j

 

wwiiyellow10.jpg

 

Fw_190_D-13.jpg

 

I'll post and edit to save  further loss...

 

 

EDIT

pulled out the JaPo book.  Crandall and JaPo don't always agree.

 

they say it was a Weserflug built plane, and followed the pattern used by them (The jaPo book trace the use of specfic patterns and finishing to individual sub-contractors and production batches,  and tend to make your brain melt if read for too long)

 

and....

4 hours ago, Lawzer said:

the underside fine but from what i can make out the wings/top fuselage is rlm82 with rlm83 "squiggles" and on the fuselage sides a mix of rlm83 and rlm82 with some rlm75 (on wings too) thrown in for good measure.

 

 

they suggest a different base scheme to the one from Crandall, with the uppers not in overall 75, but with a standard Weserflug pattern and also note the front at wing underside is the darker one of the upper colours,  the rest  of the wing is natural metal, fuselage underside is RLM 76, as are the ailerons,  they call this "W3"  type....(they describe 6 variants..)

 

HTH?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BIG X said:

Now that is what you call a painting guide :clap2:

bit worried about that spirally nose though - do you have a decal for that :worry:

There are various spinner spiral decals on the market, but I generally get better results by painting the spinner white and cutting a mask using a French curve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, BIG X said:

Now that is what you call a painting guide :clap2:

bit worried about that spirally nose though - do you have a decal for that :worry:

Sadly not....i was playing around with curves but couldn't get it right......

 

7 hours ago, Seawinder said:

There are various spinner spiral decals on the market, but I generally get better results by painting the spinner white and cutting a mask using a French curve.

Task for today - google french curve! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't beat a good French curve...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lawzer said:

Sadly not....i was playing around with curves but couldn't get it right......

 

Task for today - google french curve! ;)

Eduard has an Express Mask for the 190D: EX506. If you don't want to spend the money, there's a downloadable image here:

https://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Spinner-spirals-Fw-190D-1-48.html

It'll print oversize, so you'd have to figure out how much to reduce it and then use it as a template to cut your own mask(s).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree with @Troy Smith and the source he mentioned here: JaPo books! 
I believe this airframe like all the others started life with standard camouflage and not with single color on the upper surfaces... from there it "developed" into one of the most interesting Fw 190s ever by overpainting on the field.

I love both Jerry's books & JaPo crew's books and use both as references (cross-referencing) when I model Fw 190s, but in this case I take JaPo side 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Endlessly fascinating subject, with new evidence and theories coming to light. Both Crandall's and Japo's book are great sources and beautifully produced. As regards "Yellow 10" Jerry Crandall has certain bragging rights as he actually got to paint the real thing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to downplay the JaPo books (I have both), but on this one, I'd tend to go with Jerry Crandall. He has been closely associated with this particular airframe since the 1960s, with much hands-on time in that interval. And no one has spent the time researching its history that he has.

Edited by Rolls-Royce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Rolls-Royce & Flying Doctor!

I agree with you - Nobody has spent more time from all the researchers next to that "sexy lady" than our dear Jerry! And don't understand me wrong - since the days when I have started being interested into these sexy birds (about 25 years ago) I always looked at him with huge admiration. No wonder I have 50 or so Eagle Cals Decals & all the publications they ever published (except the recent zines which I miss a few).

As painting of the real thing goes - it is great he painted it :) I guess all of us would have loved to be in his spot, but I personally believe that the softer edges of all the applied colors could heve been a bit more "realistic".

Now - question that bothers me is:
Was "Gelbe 10" painted as we know it:
(a) in the front line unite when it was accepted in service? or
(b) did it arrive like that from the factory?

Jerry himself is showing us a power egg of the D-13 as a still capture from the video in his book. Power egg is camouflaged in very similar manner to "Gelbe 10"! But at the rear end of it - there is big surface of "light green" patch (I forgot what it is stated to be at this moment & I don't have the book here next to me in the office). But if the power eggs were coming pre-painted from the Junkers factory as it is shown there - how is it possible that whole airframe was RLM 75 on top surfaces at any given moment? 

Further - if we know that by the end of war paint was applied in very thin layers for each of the color straight on metal airframe in most of the cases - why would they paint whole airframe with the single RLM75 color on top surfaces? On top of it all it would also add some weight to airframe with multiple layers applied but let's not worry about it for such "Hot Rod".

So, once I am back home - I will put my nose in those books (both Jerry's & JaPo's) & see if what are the things I forgot & if my memory plays with me...

A thought of mine was: Junkers' power-egg comes to factory, new airframe built is mated with all the components from subcontractors (tail, horizontal surfaces... canopy) in their own colors and most probably machine leaves the factory in such "mix & match" camouflage...
I have to check books and see what both authors (group of authors) suggest that happened afterwards to the complete airframe!

BUT to be precise of what I meant when I said I choose JaPo's side when I wrote it above is that I believe that each factory was having some kind of standards & that these standards can be applied to (certain batches of) airframes built at those specific locations!

More from me when I arrive home... Time to work :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milos, don't forget that these were single-coat paints. As such, an overall coat of RLM 75 topsides having mottled greens oversprayed would incur a slight weight penalty over 74/75, 81/82, or 82/83. But it would provide better camouflage in the 1945 combat environment approaching that of the late-war greens overall. Note that at the time of its capture, the black/white RVD bands had been oversprayed with green on the fuselage spine. I don't believe this was that common, and there's no other reason to do it than to improve the aircraft's camouflage as it sat on the ground. 

I'm pretty sure the greens were applied by the unit. It was the Kommodore's aircraft, and if he said "paint it", they were going to paint it. He was not likely to want to give up the sheer performance the D-13 offered simply because it was gray, so enhancing the aircraft's existing camouflage was the only option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Rolls-Royce said:

As such, an overall coat of RLM 75 topsides

 

On 18/10/2017 at 23:14, Troy Smith said:

suggest a different base scheme to the one from Crandall, with the uppers not in overall 75, but with a standard Weserflug pattern and also note the front at wing underside is the darker one of the upper colours,  the rest  of the wing is natural metal, fuselage underside is RLM 76, as are the ailerons,  they call this "W3"  type....(they describe 6 variants..)

 

 

REMEMBER the D-13 wings were on the NASM D-9 when Crandall first saw the plane, as they been swapped (and caused Tamiya to make a mistake on the cannon shell ejector slot...)

Eventually they swapped back.  I can't remember what state they were in when reunited with the D-13 fuselage. (or when this happened, perhaps post the profiles posted above?) 

 

The D-13 fuselage was badly weathered as well in the mid-60's when first examined, with the field applied paint the most weathered...

 

So the fuselage upper may well have been 75, (given the modular nature of dispersed construction late war) and the wings in the Weserflug 75/8? uppers, and the Jumo power egg as per the color image from a film the Crandall found later.

(Can't easily reach the JaPo books, IIRC they said 81)

 

I don't think there is an argument that there were unit applied greens applied for ground concealment. 

 

14 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said:

As painting of the real thing goes - it is great he painted it :) I guess all of us would have loved to be in his spot, but I personally believe that the softer edges of all the applied colors could heve been a bit more "realistic".

He advised, and IIRC he mentioned the result  was 'too neat' and a modeller should have done it...

 

@Jerry Crandall is a member here,  and does chime in on occasion

 

 

HTH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

REMEMBER the D-13 wings were on the NASM D-9 when Crandall first saw the plane, as they been swapped (and caused Tamiya to make a mistake on the cannon shell ejector slot...)

Eventually they swapped back.  I can't remember what state they were in when reunited with the D-13 fuselage. (or when this happened, perhaps post the profiles posted above?) 

 

The D-13 fuselage was badly weathered as well in the mid-60's when first examined, with the field applied paint the most weathered...

 

So the fuselage upper may well have been 75, (given the modular nature of dispersed construction late war) and the wings in the Weserflug 75/8? uppers, and the Jumo power egg as per the color image from a film the Crandall found later.

(Can't easily reach the JaPo books, IIRC they said 81)

 

I don't think there is an argument that there were unit applied greens applied for ground concealment. 

 

He advised, and IIRC he mentioned the result  was 'too neat' and a modeller should have done it...

 

@Jerry Crandall is a member here,  and does chime in on occasion

 

 

HTH

Excellent points well taken, Troy!  IIRC, the first museum paint job on the NASM D-9 on exhibit at the USAF Museum was overall RLM 75 topsides.  But it was never claimed that this was the plane's original color.

Edited by Rolls-Royce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Guys,

    Interesting discussion forum on "Yellow 10". My first contact with my girl was in 1965 when the owner took us to the vacant lot and there it was . We were amazed that it hadn't been stolen or severely vandalized, although a local drunk had recently chopped off the supercharger scoop. The wings of the Bf 109G 10 that he also owned, had been scrapped. The friends that were with me were avid modelers and we spent hours examining the remaining paint. Of course I came back to visit constantly until the owner died and it was sold. The new owner and I were friends and we spent many weekends playing airplanes with her. At one point the owner wanted to repaint it. We spent a lot of time sanding and scraping areas to find the original paint. It had been over painted at some point after capture with American paint. Fortunately it was a light coat and came off rather easily. He gave me some interesting parts with fragments of the original German paint. At that time the reason for the JG 53 emblem was unknown. Someone suggested it was an "aces" machine. Don't forget this was 1965,1966. My friend eventually had to sell it, so Doug Champlin bought it, thankfully. When Doug sent it to Germany for the first restoration we followed it and was there to see the aluminum skin stripped of all paint. They gave us some non critical parts which I still have. I can't say with certainly that the factory painted it in the sequence that we supply in my book, that's the way we suggest a modeler apply the paint. We do know however those were the colors applied. Obviously, the JG 26 technicians had a field day putting their final touches to the Kommodore's personal Dora.

    Cheers, Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, I have to ask seeing Jerry is here..

 

Does the discovery of the photo of W.Nr.836016 make you rethink the base colours or the style of swastika used?

Edited by Phas3e

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Excellent points well taken, Troy!  IIRC, the first museum paint job on the NASM D-9 on exhibit at the USAF Museum was overall RLM 75 topsides.  But it was never claimed that this was the plane's original color.

Don’t know if I can find them now, but I have color slides of it when it was initially shown at W-PAFB in 1968, even had a chance to sit in it before it went on display. Hard to remember but I’m thinking it was at least two colors on the upper surfaces. I was stationed at Wright-Pat at the time and don’t think it was on display before then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear enthusiasts, modeler & researcher friends! Hope you are having a nice day & the weekend will be even nicer!

I was unable to dedicate time last night to these matters. Came home too late & after spending few moments with my baby who yesterday turned 6 months exactly went for a dinner with a friend who was leaving Shanghai last night after short visit.

I am aware that these were single layer paints. But still painting multiple layers in top of each other would cause some weight gain. But as I mentioned in my previous post - it is of secondary importance for this discussion but we should not ignore it completely. Why am I asking about this is because I believe that airframe arrived to the unit already camouflaged and NOT with RLM75 painted overall on the top surfaces! Especially not on the wings! And if that is the case then yes - it is a gain in weight especially with single-coat paints (which as I understand apply in ticker layer than the old style ones that demanded the primer). 

And if the machine arrived to unit already camouflaged (power-egg could have been painted in Junkers style as seen in Jerry's book in the video capture) and the rest of airframe would be in camo which is standard to the factory that built the airframe and that is where I say that I agree with JaPo guys! and disagree with the fact that aircraft ever looked as in the first image in the instructions which were posted above coming from Eagle Editions!  Jerry just confirmed that this is the instruction for modelers in how most easily to achieve the result closest to the original airframe and not the way airframe was painted in reality. 

After coming in "standard" camouflage - Kommodore probably ordered for his airframe to be painted similar to it's power-egg style.

As for the "neatness" of the application of the paints on the original airframe, looking at the photos for they look a bit softer than on the rebuilt machine. But those are finesse...

And yes - Fw 190 D-13 "<<" WNr 836016 photos and a photo of 3rd D-13 (burnt, seen here: https://vintageeagle.com/2017/12/11/addendum-ce-vol-i-photo-46-fw-190-d-13/ ) could also help us in determining how did "Gelbe 10" look before the final camo was applied onto it, when it just left the factory.

Looking forward for more thoughts and comments guys!
Have a great weekend
M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The black and white photo of W.Nr. 836016 doesn't change anything especially when we saw some of the original colors on "Yellow 10" and I still have some parts with color. So the problem is, we don't know the colors on 836016. We can only guess. As far as the Hakenkruez it's appears the placement is odd so who knows . Allied capture documents describe the one on "Yellow 10" as being black with a white outline but they maybe referring to markings reapplied by the Americans.

    Cheers, Jerry

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...