North American FJ-2 Fury

[Tailspin Turtle]

2 hours ago, Courageous said:

If what @Sabrejet has measured and it is indeed 8mm too long, how are we going to rectify it from modelling perspective? SJ's analysis suggests that the fuselage has been stretched which crudely means a number of 'cut-and-shut' operations and although is doable, not for the faint hearted.

I'm still working on it (there is some variation in the available NAA drawings that I'm reviewing again, not to mention that the draftsman who did the FJ-2 fuselage stations drawing was a little sloppy about the actual position on the drawing of the station identified). My first guess is that much of the length error (which my current estimate is about 6 mm, more than my personal tolerance) can be removed by cutting the fuselage at the break point behind the wing and reducing the length of mating end of the forward section of the fuselage by about 4 mm. The top of the nose forward of the windscreen also looks like it needs to be reshaped, since it doesn't curve down enough. It looks more like the F-86H's...

 

More later

[MVW]

2 hours ago, Courageous said:

If what @Sabrejet has measured and it is indeed 8mm too long, how are we going to rectify it from modelling perspective? SJ's analysis suggests that the fuselage has been stretched which crudely means a number of 'cut-and-shut' operations and although is doable, not for the faint hearted.

Hello,

the fuselage length of the kit is 156mm. The station diagram prvided by Sabrejet gives 429.75inches or 151.6mm in 1/72. I'll wait for further comments - my FJ-3M from Hannants is one the way and I suspect comments will be applicable for both.

 

Martin

[Giorgio N]

I'm very grateful to all the great information that is coming through this thread, thanks a lot to Sabrejet for the pictures and diagrams and to Tailsplin Turtle for the additional information !

What however annoys me a bit is that there are again errors in brand new kits of member of the Sabre family... after the various mistakes made by Special Hobby with their F-86D/L/K series, we again have problems in fuselage lengths and so on

In any case, at least we have some new Furies... actually, at least we have some FJ2s and 3s, something that IIRC we never had in injected plastic before

[Courageous]

3 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

What however annoys me a bit is that there are again errors in brand new kits of member of the Sabre family... after the various mistakes made by Special Hobby with their F-86D/L/K series, we again have problems in fuselage lengths and so on

In any case, at least we have some new Furies... actually, at least we have some FJ2s and 3s, something that IIRC we never had in injected plastic before

I concur Giorgio, a missed opportunity but 'beggars can't choosers'. I have my -2 and hopefully will be collecting my -3s soon.

[Gene K]

4 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 ... after the various mistakes made by Special Hobby with their F-86D/L/K series, we again have problems in fuselage lengths and so on

 

That is hard to understand ... you'd think they'd have learned. Hopefully the fix(s), if needed, aren't back breakers since so many of us have been anticipating new Furies for a loooong time!!! 

 

Does anyone here know how the Falcon conversion measures out relative to the references being used here for the  Sword kits?? I know Tommy considered it the best fuselage available (in its time).

 

Gene K

[72modeler]

I don't have SJ's or Tommy's incredible photo references, but I found this one that I think will be useful when building the new Sword kit- shows the approach lights in the intake lip and the landing/taxi light in the nose gear fairing door, as well as the wing fold warning flags and barrier engagement hooks; also shows the contours of the intake very well. I hope this will be helpful...still waiting for my FJ-2 and FJ-3 to arrive in the mail so I can see what all the fuss is about- sure hope the fuselage doesn't turn out to be as wrong in length as it appears it might be. You would think, just once....

Mike

 

https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/178853/132057-usa-marine-corps-north-american-fj-2-fury/

Edited October 20, 2017 by 72modeler
added more details

[Tailspin Turtle]

OK - the bad news. It appears that Sword used the basic shape of an F-86H for the FJ-2 fuselage and then modified the master with FJ-2 details. For more and a theoretical "fix", see my update:

http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2017/10/sword-fj-2-preliminary.html

 

Note that the fix is very speculative on my part since I don't yet have the kit in hand.

[Sabrejet]

This thread seems to have gone a bit off-topic and seems now to be more about the Sword kits than the FJ-2 itself. The diagrams I have previously posted (fuselage stations, general arrangements etc) are just that - diagrams. NAA never meant them to be scale drawings, so any attempt to use them as such is likely to bring incorrect assumptions. What they do give is key dimensions, which are very useful, but to use them to validate shapes  or to scale dimensions from them would be akin go using the London Underground map for a similar purpose.

 

From what I've seen, Sword have done a good job - maybe the fuselage is a bit long, but it looks like an FJ-2. And some of the 'errors' would appear to be minor and easy to correct. I also noted comments about the FJ-3 kit which were made using just the sprue photos for guidance (notably on another thread, where it was suggested that there appeared to be no difference between the nose/intake contours on the Sword FJ-3 when compared to the FJ-2). So (and I have no links with Sword by the way), here is my initial comparison of the FJ-3 kit nose (FJ-3 at left, FJ-2 at right):

 

 

Also I think Sword have done a fair job with the barrier guards on the FJ-3 leading edge:

 

 

And also the wing camber on the FJ-3's extended leading edge:

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Sabrejet

[Tailspin Turtle]

2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

This thread seems to have gone a bit off-topic and seems now to be more about the Sword kits than the FJ-2 itself. The diagrams I have previously posted (fuselage stations, general arrangements etc) are just that - diagrams. NAA never meant them to be scale drawings, so any attempt to use them as such is likely to bring incorrect assumptions. What they do give is key dimensions, which are very useful, but to use them to validate shapes  or to scale dimensions from them would be akin go using the London Underground map for a similar purpose.

 

From what I've seen, Sword have done a good job - maybe the fuselage is a bit long, but it looks like an FJ-2. And some of the 'errors' would appear to be minor and easy to correct. I also noted comments about the FJ-3 kit which were made using just the sprue photos for guidance (notably on another thread, where it was suggested that there appeared to be no difference between the nose/intake contours on the Sword FJ-3 when compared to the FJ-2). So (and I have no links with Sword by the way), here is my initial comparison of the FJ-3 kit nose (FJ-3 at left, FJ-2 at right):

 

Also I think Sword have done a fair job with the barrier guards on the FJ-3 leading edge:

 

And also the wing camber on the FJ-3's extended leading edge:

 

Good news and thanks very much for that comparison. I was premature in speculating that Sword had used the F-86H fuselage length and shape as a basis for their FJ-2's. My guess now is that they used the overall FJ-2 length, including the stabilators extending aft of the fuselage proper, as the length for the fuselage from the tip of the nose to the tip of the fairing above the tailpipe. I've updated my draft post accordingly.

[e8n2]

14 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

This thread seems to have gone a bit off-topic and seems now to be more about the Sword kits than the FJ-2 itself. The diagrams I have previously posted (fuselage stations, general arrangements etc) are just that - diagrams. NAA never meant them to be scale drawings, so any attempt to use them as such is likely to bring incorrect assumptions. What they do give is key dimensions, which are very useful, but to use them to validate shapes  or to scale dimensions from them would be akin go using the London Underground map for a similar purpose.

 

From what I've seen, Sword have done a good job - maybe the fuselage is a bit long, but it looks like an FJ-2. And some of the 'errors' would appear to be minor and easy to correct. I also noted comments about the FJ-3 kit which were made using just the sprue photos for guidance (notably on another thread, where it was suggested that there appeared to be no difference between the nose/intake contours on the Sword FJ-3 when compared to the FJ-2). So (and I have no links with Sword by the way), here is my initial comparison of the FJ-3 kit nose (FJ-3 at left, FJ-2 at right):

 

 

 

That's the kind of picture I was looking for.  Thanks very much.  Good to see that they got that part right.

Later,

Dave

[David H]

Bill Dye did a beautiful model of one of the FJ-2 prototypes, using the Hobbycraft F-86 kit as a starting point, but i don't think i have any photos of it anymore. I know he modified the wing leading edge to remove the "6-3" retrofit and he rebuilt the nose gear strut to make it longer.

 

This aeroplane has "Navy Bird" written all over it, LOL

 

-d-

[Sabrejet]

1 hour ago, David H said:

Bill Dye did a beautiful model of one of the FJ-2 prototypes, using the Hobbycraft F-86 kit as a starting point, but i don't think i have any photos of it anymore. I know he modified the wing leading edge to remove the "6-3" retrofit and he rebuilt the nose gear strut to make it longer.

 

This aeroplane has "Navy Bird" written all over it, LOL

 

-d-

Well I've said it before, but converting an F-86 to an FJ-anything is a bit like starting with a Spitfire and trying to make a Hurricane. Probably easier to scratch-build the whole thing because aside from the engine in the FJ-2, they have not much in common.

[Tailspin Turtle]

5 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Well I've said it before, but converting an F-86 to an FJ-anything is a bit like starting with a Spitfire and trying to make a Hurricane. Probably easier to scratch-build the whole thing because aside from the engine in the FJ-2, they have not much in common.

Yes, but an XFJ-2 is doable from the right F-86 kit: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2009/10/fj-fury.html

[Sabrejet]

Just now, Tailspin Turtle said:

Yes, but an XFJ-2 is doable from the right F-86 kit: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2009/10/fj-fury.html

Fair point! I have seen one done from the Monogram kit and it looked good. But the XFJ's are pretty much identical to the F-86E/F (depending on whether it's an XFJ-2 or a -2B), so I take them as an exception to the rule.

[jpk]

I may be out in left field but didn't IPMS USA issue a 1/48 decal sheet as a hand out at one of the nationals a while back that had the markings for a XFJ-2?

[Tailspin Turtle]

3 hours ago, jpk said:

I may be out in left field but didn't IPMS USA issue a 1/48 decal sheet as a hand out at one of the nationals a while back that had the markings for a XFJ-2?

Yes - it was based on a Tailhook Topics column earlier that year that I did on the conversion of an F-86 kit to an XFJ-2. See http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2009/10/fj-fury.html

 

It was done in 1/48th because some felt that it would be of more interest in that scale.

[jpk]

6 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

Yes - it was based on a Tailhook Topics column earlier that year that I did on the conversion of an F-86 kit to an XFJ-2. See http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2009/10/fj-fury.html

 

It was done in 1/48th because some felt that it would be of more interest in that scale.

Too bad it was a one off issue. I would think with all the interest being generated by the Sword kits as well as Kitty Hawk's possible Fury kits we'd see a sheet for doing an early F-86/Fury in both scales. I know I would like to get one.

[jpk]

It appears the latest on Cybermodeler's list of kits to be released has moved the Kitty Hawk FJ Fury to 2018. The late Banshee has also been rescheduled to 2018. Bummer, was hoping a holiday surprise.

[Tonka]

On 07/10/2017 at 4:25 PM, Sabrejet said:

The XFJ-2s were basically the same, with no armament and based on the F-86F

I would like to know if the two XFJ-2s (754, 755)  had the 6-3 wings of the F-86F ?

Edited October 27, 2017 by Tonka

[Tailspin Turtle]

39 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I would like to know if the two XFJ-2s (754, 755)  had the 6-3 wings of the F-86F ?

From http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2009/10/fj-fury.html

 

"XFJ-2 (NA-179) BuNos 133754 and 755: Based on the F-86E but with the J47-GE-27 engine (F-86F) in lieu of J47-GE-13 (F-86E). Slatted, non-folding wing with 37’ 1’ span (ailerons extend to the wingtip). Forward and downward visibility improved by modifying the windscreen. Seat and canopy strengthened to withstand a deceleration of 40 Gs. The structure was strengthened to meet the design requirements for H-8 catapult launch and Mk 7 short-run-out arrested landing. FJ-2 landing gear, fixed catapult hook, retractable holdback and tail bumper, manually-retractable barrier guard and barrier pickup, and FJ-2-type arresting hook installed. Provisions for 200-gallon drop tanks. Cockpit rudder lock omitted and external gust lock provided. No provisions for guns, fire control or other armament equipment. The major differences from the FJ-2 were the lack of wing folding and the F-86 intake and canopy, except for the windscreen."
 

In other words, they had the slatted wing of the F-86E and early F-86F except for the landing gear installation.

[MVW]

Hello,

again many thanks for all the input on this airplane. With this in mind I found some time looking about the length of the kit’s fuselage which is about 4.5mm too long. Using the station diagram provided by Sabrejet I drawed the relevant stations in 1/72 scale on millimeter paper. Compared with Tailspin Turtles FJ-2 profile from his blog, they match. Having now the FJ-2 and FJ-3 kits with me, the following applies to both:

Putting the nose of the kits fuselage at zero and then its tail at 151.6 (its real length in 1/72) some points become apparent (see photos below, unfortunately there is some distortion – the result is better than seen on the pics):

Starting from the nose: Apart from the gun ports and its panel all relevant stations till the wing leading edge are well respected on the kit.

The windshield is about 1mm too short and as a result its angle too steep.

Same starting from the tail: till the speedbrake and start fin fillet all relevant stations are well respected on the kit.

My conclusions:

There is some overlength between the trailing edge of the wing and start of the fin fillet, about 2.5mm

If I take into account the wing root chord being about 2mm to large as I posted earlier, then the fuselage length deviation of about of 4.5mm is explained. This also explains why the fuselage break on the kit doesn’t match whichever way you measure it.

Keeping in mind Tailspin Turtle’s concern about the fuselage curvature in front of the windshield, a “short” windshield explains this issue.

In my opinion the FJ-2 and FJ-3 airframes look “stubby” in reality, something the Sword kits do not depict appropriately. Now I know why. I’m indecisive to which amount I will correct these points when building my kits. In any case and with the wealth of material provided here, decent models of the FJ-2 and -3 can be built from the Sword kits and that’s all what counts for me.

[Sabrejet]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

I would like to know if the two XFJ-2s (754, 755)  had the 6-3 wings of the F-86F ?

Tonka, I can assure you that the XFJ-2s were based on F-86F with the F-1 to F-20 slatted, narrow-chord wing. Several of those two aircraft's airframe configurations confirm their F-86F lineage. The XFJ-2B was based on the F-86E.

[72modeler]

TT and Sabrejet,

 

SJ- in the diagram you put in one of your earlier posts, labeled H-181-00-2A, that showed fuselage stations from front to back, am I correct in assuming those measurements are in inches? If so, I plan to photocopy that illustration in 1/72 scale so I can get a better handle on the length issues that have been pointed put regarding the Sword FJ2. BTW, the work you did on that forward cannon port really changed the look of the nose!

 

TT- after re-measuring the Sword FJ-2  wheel track, using your suggestions and the 1/72 drawings I have, it appears Sword got it correct at 9 feet! I also located my Falcon 1/72 vacform triple conversion that had the FJ-2 fuselage; they got the overall length and the upper nose contour from the windscreen to the intake lip right on the money! I can use it  either as a guide to  fixing the Sword kit, or might even graft the upper nose section onto it- might even be a big step towards correcting the Sword intake issues, too. Going to take the NAA 3-views to my local photocopier and get them enlarged/reduced to 1/72 scale, and put the Sword parts on them to see how/if the aft fuselage length issue is worth the hassle of correcting, as well as checking the upper nose and intake contours against them. I'm still trying to digest the fact that the Hasegawa Sabre Dog wing is 6" short in span....off-topic, but hoping Airfix will do a new one to replace their original issue! (With different fuselages and sets of wings, they could do a D/K/L)

 

I have family coming to visit for two weeks, so it might be a while before I can get back to all of you with my findings. (Thanks for the  break, you say?) Don't do anything crazy while I'm gone- SJ will probably have his ready for paint by then!

Mike

Edited October 29, 2017 by 72modeler
added words for clarity

[MVW]

13 hours ago, 72modeler said:

TT and Sabrejet,

 

SJ- in the diagram you put in one of your earlier posts, labeled H-181-00-2A, that showed fuselage stations from front to back, am I correct in assuming those measurements are in inches? If so, I plan to photocopy that illustration in 1/72 scale so I can get a better handle on the length issues that have been pointed put regarding the Sword FJ2. BTW, the work you did on that forward cannon port really changed the look of the nose!

 

TT- after re-measuring the Sword FJ-2  wheel track, using your suggestions and the 1/72 drawings I have, it appears Sword got it correct at 9 feet! I also located my Falcon 1/72 vacform triple conversion that had the FJ-2 fuselage; they got the overall length and the upper nose contour from the windscreen to the intake lip right on the money! I can use it  either as a guide to  fixing the Sword kit, or might even graft the upper nose section onto it- might even be a big step towards correcting the Sword intake issues, too. Going to take the NAA 3-views to my local photocopier and get them enlarged/reduced to 1/72 scale, and put the Sword parts on them to see how/if the aft fuselage length issue is worth the hassle of correcting, as well as checking the upper nose and intake contours against them. I'm still trying to digest the fact that the Hasegawa Sabre Dog wing is 6" short in span....off-topic, but hoping Airfix will do a new one to replace their original issue! (With different fuselages and sets of wings, they could do a D/K/L)

 

I have family coming to visit for two weeks, so it might be a while before I can get back to all of you with my findings. (Thanks for the  break, you say?) Don't do anything crazy while I'm gone- SJ will probably have his ready for paint by then!

Mike

Dear Mike,

the station diagram you mention is in inches. Scaling it down to 1/72 by photocopy is not worth it - both axes are distorted. I started with the same idea - thats why, in the end, took just the measurements and drew it on millimeter paper, see my post from October 27th. I consider this more accurate, perhaps only topped by using CAD.

 

Martin

[72modeler]

Thanks, Martin! Will look into getting my other  drawings scaled out. Thanks for the heads-up!

Mike