Hellcat in FAA service

[Spitfires Forever]

Greetings, 

.  I have the dual combo 1/48 Hellcat kit and am about to build the -3. I always like to research my aircraft before building and have been trying to find whatever articles/books that pertain to my subject that can be found, and so far have found little real information on the FAA Hellcat in both European and Pacific theatres. The information I have found is more ancillary than deep in information. So far I have found that the aircraft was generally well received, and much appreciated for its ruggedness and lack of nasty habits that plagued the Corsair. That is about as much information that I could find. I do have the Osprey publication on the FAA aircraft as well as the second Sturtivant book (not the "bible" that some of you are lucky enough to own), so on to my question; any good books or articles out there on the Hellcat from a pilots perspective? As an aside, the P of F Hellcat which was painted in FAA colors with the D-Day stripes was one of the most beautiful airplanes ever, but of course, since we do not have enough dark blue Hellcats around they painted it in a 1944 deep sea blue scheme that five others on the circuit are painted. Kind of sad, but at least they didn't paint a mouth on it like just about every P-40 on the air show circuit. Excuse the digression, and perhaps over generalization, but I think most of you understand what I am getting at. Anyway, any help on the info would be great.

Cheers

[Chuck1945]

Look on Amazon, there is one book from a pilot. This by Tillman is a good overall coverage. I have the original Naval Institute print edition, suspect you may have to go to used books to find it though

[Guest]

Thanks mate, I will check it out.

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

Hi  Randy

 

This is pretty good, not much on the FAA though,  

https://www.amazon.com/F6F-Hellcat-War-Cory-Graff/dp/0760333068/

 

has a look  inside feature,  and  about $12  shipped for a used copy.

I got one, it has some pilot stories and is reasonably interesting book.

 

If you  have not seen it, the OOP Detail and Scale is scanned here

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Detail-Scale/26-Grumman-F6F

and revised edition.

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Detail-Scale/49-Grumman-F6F

 

A book on the British use of the Hellcat would be interesting though.

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Troy Smith

[Guest]

Thanks again my friend, your input is always valuable. The Hellcat was quite an airplane and I was curious to see if any former FAA Hellcat pilots wrote anything about their experiences. By the way, just go back from the Huntington Beach Airshow where the F-35 was paired with an F-16 Viper, and the F-35 is every bit as bad as has been previously reported. It couldn't climb vertically like the F-16, couldn't turn with it either. The only thing it excelled in was that it was louder than the Viper.  Lockheed says that the weapons system will even things out and the F-35 shouldn't have to engage in ACM. There 

I go, digressing again. Thanks again Troy, you are a good wingman.

Cheers

Randy

[Grey Beema]

Try looking for Hellcat MkI & MkII - The Royal Navy didn't use the -3,-5 designation.  

 

From what I recall, without going and looking it up, Hellcats were used around Norway during '44 to attack shipping and as fighter support for the attacks on Tirpitz (e.g. 804 NAS HMS Emperor).  They were used extensively by the British Eastern Fleet in '44 and '45 and were based on HMS Indomitable (NAS 1839, NAS 1844) in the BPF.  

 

The Hellcats were often assigned to Escort Carriers because of their Deck landing characteristics (considered way better than the Corsair)..  In the BPF when Indomitable left the fleet to go back to Australia for refit, six Hellcats were cross-decked to Formidable to cover night fighter duties (These were regular Hellcat II day fighters) as landing the Corsair in the dark was considered very hazardous.  

 

I am not the expert if you if you have specific questions hopefully @iang will be along to address them...

 

In the mean time I'll show you my rendition of a nearly complete Hellcat II which was cross-decked to Furious, in which SLt Atkinson shot down three Japanese raiders at night...

 

And a nearly complete (there's a theme here) Hellcat I from Operation Tungsten flown by Cmdr Stan Orr..

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Grey Beema
Case of figures before brain..

[Seahawk]

Hank Adlam's On and Off The Flight Deck is at least in part about flying the Hellcat with 1839 Squadron (HMS Indomitable) in the Far East.

[tonyot]

The Osprey book `Royal Navy Aces of WW2' is a good book with quite a bit of Hellcat info in it. Most FAA Hellcats also had rear view mirrors added to the windscreen,....just to warn you for modelling purposes.

https://ospreypublishing.com/royal-navy-aces-of-world-war-2

[Fernando]

Hi, Spitfire Addict,

 

The decal options in the Eduard box are well researched and pretty accurate. Even FN427 "5-A", in the 1/72nd Weekend, a fairly tricky machine, is correct.

 

Consider there was only one "Hellcat Fleet Carrier" in the BPF, that was HMS Indomitable, carrying 1839 and 1844 Sqns, FAA. All others are land based or in some escort carrier.

 

Also consider that the "Invasion stripes" in any Hellcat (and Martlet) are from Operation "Dragoon" (the invasion of the South of France) and not D-Day.

 

Good kits them all, BTW.

 

Fernando

 

 

[tonyot]

23 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Hi, Spitfire Addict,

 

The decal options in the Eduard box are well researched and pretty accurate. Even FN427 "5-A", in the 1/72nd Weekend, a fairly tricky machine, is correct.

 

Consider there was only one "Hellcat Fleet Carrier" in the BPF, that was HMS Indomitable, carrying 1839 and 1844 Sqns, FAA. All others are land based or in some escort carrier.

 

Also consider that the "Invasion stripes" in any Hellcat (and Martlet) are from Operation "Dragoon" (the invasion of the South of France) and not D-Day.

 

Good kits them all, BTW.

 

Fernando

 

 

Martlets and Avengers were also marked with D-Day stripes for the Normandy op,...... they helped patrol the U Boat `stop zones' at either end of the channel from Escort Carriers,........Sea Hurricane`s and Swordfish were also involved and had D Day stripes while other Avengers and Swordfish operated from airfields along the channel coast too. 

 

I`m pretty sure that the Hellcat`s of 800 NAS aboard HMS Emperor were involved with the Normandy op too, again involved with the channel block operation and that the stripes were applied for this.......especially as photos from around the time of Dragoon show that the stripes were in the process of being overpainted and I have seen photos of RN Hellcat`s being launched during Dragoon, with US Hellcat`s beside them, and these British Hellcat`s were not adorned with stripes of any kind. One Hellcat was recovered from the sea off the Atlanti coast of Spain wearing full D-Day stripes which also shows that these stripes were applied before reaching the Med.

 

Cheers

          Tony 

 

Cheers

         Tony

Edited October 2, 2017 by tonyot

[Fernando]

Just now, tonyot said:

Martlets and Avengers were also marked with D-Day stripes for the Normandy op,...... they helped patrol the U Boat `stop zones' at either end of the channel from Escort Carriers,........Sea Hurricane`s and Swordfish were also involved and had D Day stripes while other Avengers and Swordfish operated from airfields along the channel coast too. 

 

I`m pretty sure that the Hellcat`s of 800 NAS aboard HMS Emperor were involved with the Normandy too, again involved with the channel block operation and that the stripes were applied for this.......especially as photos from around the time of Dragoon show that the stripes were in the process of being overpainted and I have seen photos of RN Hellcat`s being launched during Dragoon, with US Hellcat`s beside them, and these British Hellcat`s were not adorned with stripes of any kind. One Hellcat was recovered from the sea off the Atlanti coast of Spain wearing full D-Day stripes which also shows that these stripes were applied before reaching the Med.

 

Cheers

          Tony 

 

Cheers

         Tony

Hi, Tony,

 

Not arguing about Sea Hurris and Swordfishes. But I have not seen Hellcats and Martlets so marked captioned in such operations.

 

Besides, the machine in Eduard's box, JV105 "E-w" looks as surely in the Med. The Red nose ring is tell-tale.

 

Fernando

[tonyot]

27 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Hi, Tony,

 

Not arguing about Sea Hurris and Swordfishes. But I have not seen Hellcats and Martlets so marked captioned in such operations.

 

Besides, the machine in Eduard's box, JV105 "E-w" looks as surely in the Med. The Red nose ring is tell-tale.

 

Fernando

If you read what I said Fernando,...I said "photos from around the time of Dragoon show that the stripes were in the process of being overpainted and I have seen photos of RN Hellcat`s being launched during Dragoon, with US Hellcat`s beside them, and these British Hellcat`s were not adorned with stripes of any kind. " In other words,.....the stripes were not required for this op,......the RN Seafire`s and USN Hellcat`s didn`t wear stripes either! Yes one or two of the Hellcat`s did have stripes,.....which were in the process of being overpained as a I said,......but they were not applied for Dragoon. 

 

Cheers

         Tony 

Edit,.....if you do a quick Google check you`ll easily find that 800 NAS and HMS Emperor were involved in the D-Day op, this article is pretty useful and shows some of the Hellcats still adorned with stripes in the Med,.....the one from the Eduard kit being photographed off the Greek island of Leros,.....with partial stripes; http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/EMPEROR.htm#.WdISuFuPLIU

 

Here is a pic showing the US & British Hellcats taken during Op Dragoon showing that stripes were not required for the op;

 

 

This photo is said to have been taken during the D-Day Op Overlord cover,.....although the presumably red nose band would indicate Op Dragoon;

 

As for the Martlets,.....have a look at this page,.......it shows D-Day stripes applied for D-Day, but not for Op Dragoon;

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Galleries/PURSUER_Gllery.htm

D-Day,...Martlets and Avenger`s;

Dragoon;

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by tonyot

[Fernando]

Hi, tonyot,

 

Yep, the stripes on the famous JV579 "That Old Thing", might have been painted for "Overlord", while in service in 846 Sqn (not 1832 Sqn as oft captioned) Possibly those are the ones in your pic?

 

As for the captions, I have always been suspicious of those. One tends to say any machine in "D-Day Stripes" is actually engaged in "D-Day Operations"! Cheers

 

Fernando

Edited October 2, 2017 by Fernando

[Seahawk]

On 02/10/2017 at 10:46 AM, Fernando said:

Also consider that the "Invasion stripes" in any Hellcat (and Martlet) are from Operation "Dragoon" (the invasion of the South of France) and not D-Day.

 By D-Day Martlets had been renamed Wildcats.  The Wildcat Vs of 846 Squadron, based at RNAS Limavady, Northern Ireland, while detached to 15 Group RAF owing to damage to her parent carrier, were famously marked with D-Day stripes for D-Day proper.  There's a fairly famous photo of "F" (it's even been on the cover of IPMS Mag) but I can't find an on-line version.  Here's a profile based on it (which is NOT accurate enough for modelling purposes (the letter on the cowling ring is missing for starters)) as a memory jogger:

 

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Allies/3-UK/07-Maritime-Planes/GM-Wildcat/Wildcat-F.Mk5.htm

Edited October 4, 2017 by Seahawk

[Fernando]

Just now, Seahawk said:

 By D-Day Martlets had been renamed Wildcats.  The Wildcat Vs of 846 Squadron, based at RNAS Limavady, Northern Ireland, while detached to 15 Group RAF owing to damage to her parent carrier, were famously marked with D-Day stripes for D-Day proper.  There's a fairly famous photo of "F" (it's even been on the cover of IPMS Mag) but I can't find an on-line version.  Here's a profile based on it (which is NOT accurate enough for modeling purposes (the letter on the cowling ring is missing for starters)) as a memory jogger:

 

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Allies/3-UK/07-Maritime-Planes/GM-Wildcat/Wildcat-F.Mk5.htm

Yep, that's what I said in my post above yours. The machine is usually and wrongly captioned as serving with 1832 Sqn, from which it was inherited.

 

Fernando

[tonyot]

1 minute ago, Seahawk said:

 By D-Day Martlets had been renamed Wildcats.  The Wildcat Vs of 846 Squadron, based at RNAS Limavady, Northern Ireland, while detached to 15 Group RAF owing to damage to her parent carrier, were famously marked with D-Day stripes for D-Day proper.  There's a fairly famous photo of "F" (it's even been on the cover of IPMS Mag) but I can't find an on-line version.  Here's a profile based on it (which is NOT accurate enough for modeling purposes (the letter on the cowling ring is missing for starters)) as a memory jogger:

 

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Allies/3-UK/07-Maritime-Planes/GM-Wildcat/Wildcat-F.Mk5.htm

I used the term `Martlet' because that is what Fernando referred to them as,.... this gentleman lives abroad and I did not want to confuse him by changing the name of the aircraft type, especially as it was a fringe subject,...... but thanks anyway,

Cheers

         Tony

[Seahawk]

I also have a photo of a deckful of 846 Squadron Wildcats in full invasion stripes on an escort carrier at sea so they weren't just shore-based at Limavady.  The caption I inherited says HMS Tracker but I would want to cross-check that.

 

But we digress.   

[Grey Beema]

On 02/10/2017 at 10:46 AM, Fernando said:

 

Consider there was only one "Hellcat Fleet Carrier" in the BPF, that was HMS Indomitable, carrying 1839 and 1844 Sqns, FAA. All others are land based or in some escort carrier.

 

Apart from the six that were cross decked from Indomitable to Formidable to act as night fighters...

[Fernando]

On 2/10/2017 at 12:49 PM, tonyot said:

I used the term `Martlet' because that is what Fernando referred to them as,.... this gentleman lives abroad and I did not want to confuse him by changing the name of the aircraft type, especially as it was a fringe subject,...... but thanks anyway,

Cheers

         Tony

Hi, Tony, 

Thank you for your consideration. Yep, I am aware that from the Mk.V on, the name was changed into "Wildcat". JV579 was a Wildcat V.

Cheers from Bonn!

Fernando

Edited October 5, 2017 by Fernando

[85sqn]

On 01/10/2017 at 11:33 AM, Seahawk said:

Hank Adlam's On and Off The Flight Deck is at least in part about flying the Hellcat with 1839 Squadron (HMS Indomitable) in the Far East.

It's quite an enjoyable read and a good  mix of naval aircraft flown.

[Seahawk]

On 02/10/2017 at 11:45 AM, Seahawk said:

 

 

Ignore: posted in error

Edited October 4, 2017 by Seahawk

[detail is everything]

I've asked the following Hellcat question before and got no answer, so I thought I'd ask again....

 

It is stated that the F6F-5 introduced a redesigned engine cowling which fitted more tightly around the engine and reduced drag, contributing to the variant’s improved performance.

 

Looking at drawings and photos, I can’t perceive any difference between a late production F6F-3 Hellcat Mk l (minus the lower flap and exhaust fairing) and an F6F-5 Hellcat Mk 2 cowling. If you were to park the two next to each other, could you tell the difference?

 

It might be that the external shape remained the same but that the internal trunking from the lower cowl inlet was enlarged internally through closer fitting tunnels. This allowed a greater mass of air to enter the cooling system to better cool the more powerful R-2800-10W engine and this might have reduced drag, but I’m only guessing.

Can any Hellcat fans help.

 

Ta

 

Simon

 

 

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, detail is everything said:

I've asked the following Hellcat question before and got no answer, so I thought I'd ask again....

 

It is stated that the F6F-5 introduced a redesigned engine cowling which fitted more tightly around the engine and reduced drag, contributing to the variant’s improved performance.

 

Looking at drawings and photos, I can’t perceive any difference between a late production F6F-3 Hellcat Mk l (minus the lower flap and exhaust fairing) and an F6F-5 Hellcat Mk 2 cowling. If you were to park the two next to each other, could you tell the difference?

 

It might be that the external shape remained the same but that the internal trunking from the lower cowl inlet was enlarged internally through closer fitting tunnels. This allowed a greater mass of air to enter the cooling system to better cool the more powerful R-2800-10W engine and this might have reduced drag, but I’m only guessing.

Can any Hellcat fans help.

 

Ta

 

Simon

 

 

Looking through my copy of Naval Fighters volume 92 on the Hellcat, it does state that the dash 5 had a tighter fitting cowling than the dash 3, but after nearly going blind looking at photos, the only difference I think I see is at the rear of the cowling, starting at the cutout for the upper exhausts and extending to the bottom of the cowling; it looks like the cowling does have a greater diameter there and you can see a gap/step between it an the fuselage. I didn't see any difference in the shape or size of the intake at the bottom of the cowl lip between the two versions, but Simon's comments about a change in the internal trunking to the carburetor, oil cooler, and intercooler might be relevant. The lower cowl flap was eliminated during dash 5 production, so that area might have a closer fit to the fuselage due to that change. Best I could come up with, but if there's a visible difference, it's awfully subtle!

Mike