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11 Sqn Brisfit Markings Sep-Nov 1918?


mhaselden

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:22 PM, AWFK10 said:

From Les Rogers' "British Aviation Squadron Markings of WW1": 11 Sqn used the inward sloping white bars from 26 Aug 17 until 22 March 18. They were removed as a security measure in response to the German offensive of 21 Mar 18, and there are (undated) photos in the book of F2Bs with either a single white letter or number behind the roundel and no squadron marking. "Some Bristols were also marked on the centre section", though unsurprisingly none of the photos were taken from an angle that would show this.

 

E2586 - '6'

E2428 - 'Y'

Serials not visible - 'W' and '4'. In the same photo as 'W' is an F2B with a serial I can't quite make out but it's 'F??0?'

 

A Flight used 1-6; B Flight A-F and C Flight U-Z.  The flights were also distinguished by white, red and blue wheel covers, respectively.

 

One other thing: serial number presentation tended to vary between manufacturers - which might not be an issue, as I think all Falcon-engined F2Bs (which 11 Sqn's were) were built by Bristol, not another company. The problem is that F6131 wasn't, at least not exactly. The serial number doesn't belong to any contract: the aircraft was a rebuild, performed by an RAF depot.

 

 

Per my previous post, it's interesting that both E2586 and E2428 appear in the list of Brisfits flown by my relative.  I guess I now have a choice over which airframe to model!

 

Thanks for sharing this info...it's a huge help as I piece together information about James Gamble.

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  • 5 weeks later...
On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 12:12 PM, Sabrejet said:

Here goes (courtesy Windsock Datafiles):

 

img226

 

 

Hi Sabrejet,

 

Apols for resurrecting this old thread but can you tell me which Windsock Datafile the above image came from?  So far I've found at least 4 different Brisfit volumes listed as Windsock Datafile:

  • #4 by J M Bruce
  • #115 by L A Rogers
  • Special Vols 1 and 2 by J M Bruce

Looking at the prices online, it would set me back over $120 to buy all 4 which is a bit rich for my blood.

 

Many thanks,
Mark

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On 12/5/2017 at 12:04 AM, mhaselden said:

 

Apols for resurrecting this old thread but a friend of mine did some digging in the files at Kew and found the daily flying returns for 11 Sqn.  Apparently, my relative flew this specific machine, E2586, on 2 occasions in May 1919.  Although postwar, it's still fantastic to have an image of an airframe that James Gamble actually flew!

 

Sorry very late to the play but somehow missed this. Just wanted to say congrats on tracking down so much about your relatives service and the aircraft he flew. I've been seriously researching one of mine for a number of years now (WWII rather than WWI) so I know the pleasure and excitement you feel when new little gems of information pop up.

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3 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

Sorry very late to the play but somehow missed this. Just wanted to say congrats on tracking down so much about your relatives service and the aircraft he flew. I've been seriously researching one of mine for a number of years now (WWII rather than WWI) so I know the pleasure and excitement you feel when new little gems of information pop up.

 

Thanks Smithy.  Yes, it is exciting.  I just wish I had more info about the period Sep-Oct 1918.  Sadly, the 11 Sqn records for that period aren't particularly comprehensive, certainly not like the daily returns from the period 1 Nov 18 thru 31 Jul 19.  Still...I'm grateful for what I have found.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 year later...

Apols for resurrecting this thread but I found 3 pics online that are directly pertinent to my family history research and I wanted to get input from the Britmodeller Cognoscenti.

 

I believe all 3 pics show the same event.  I'm 100% on the first 2 because they were labelled with the date and a name.  The last pic wasn't labelled but the location and the prop all look similar to the other photos, so I think they all show the same crash.

 

On 9 June 1919 my cousin, James Gamble, was returning from Spich, Germany, to Nivelles in Bristol Fighter E2602 when he suffered an engine failure and crashed.  These photos came from Arthur Simmons, available online at the New Forest Knowledge website (https://nfknowledge.org/?s=Simmons) :

 

Image Link: https://nfknowledge.org/record/nfc-208850/

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Image Link: https://nfknowledge.org/record/nfc-208861/

spacer.png

 

 

Image Link: https://nfknowledge.org/record/nfc-208862/

spacer.png

 

 

The second pic shows the serial, E2602, and what appears to be the aircraft letter "D" in white and, perhaps, black or red.  I'm assuming the black or red addition was made post-war and that during the conflict, the D would have been plain white as was the case with other aircraft of 11 Sqn (James flew this aircraft on operations in October 1918, hence my interest in how it might have appeared at that time).  

 

Is there anything else unusual, or details that I'm missing?

 

Many thanks,
Mark

 

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59 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

@Paul Thompson is your Bristol man, but it looks pretty standard to me

*Blush*.

 

But I agree, it looks a completely standard Falcon engined machine, and the same aircraft in all pictures, post war. Pity the rudder isn't visible, but you can't have everything.

 

Paul.

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13 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

*Blush*.

 

But I agree, it looks a completely standard Falcon engined machine, and the same aircraft in all pictures, post war. Pity the rudder isn't visible, but you can't have everything.

 

Paul.

 

Thanks Paul. 

 

It looks like the lower cowling is a slightly different shade from the rest.  Perhaps a replacement component or just a different batch of paint?  Also, is the front ring of the cowl natural metal?  There also appears to be a dark strip behind the "natural metal" cowl ring.  Is that seen on other Brisfits?

 

I found the bent propeller interesting.  I presume it was made of laminated wood but it appears, for all the world, to be metal given the way it's bent.  

 

Finally, I'm guessing standard PC10 dope for the wheel covers.  I've seen other pics of postwar 11 Sqn machines that show light-toned wheel covers (eg in "British Aviation Squadron Markings of WW1" there are pics of A7130, A7131, C4846 and E2428).   Perhaps 11 Sqn used different coloured wheel covers to indicate the different flights?  If so, it's possible the wheel covers on E2602 are blue but that's probably wishful thinking on my part and PC10 is more likely.  

Edited by mhaselden
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Part of my confusion over the wheel covers lies in the contradictory info contained in "British Aviation Squadron Markings of WW1".  According to the book, flight colours and individual aircraft letters/numbers were assigned as follows:

 

A Flt:  White, 1 thru 6

B Flt:  Red, A thru G

C Flt:  Blue, U thru Z

 

However, the book contains photos of W2428 'Y' and an unidentified airframe 'W' both with very pale wheel covers.  Conversely, we have E2586 '6' with dark wheel covers.  The pics that tally with the A Flt description above all show aircraft with the white bars either side of the fuselage roundel, whereas the pics of 'Y' and 'W' lack those markings.  Perhaps the flight colours or individual letters/numbers changed at some time during the life of the squadron, maybe after the bar markings were removed in late March 1918? 

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2 hours ago, mhaselden said:

 

It looks like the lower cowling is a slightly different shade from the rest.  Perhaps a replacement component or just a different batch of paint?  Also, is the front ring of the cowl natural metal?  There also appears to be a dark strip behind the "natural metal" cowl ring.  Is that seen on other Brisfits?

 

I found the bent propeller interesting.  I presume it was made of laminated wood but it appears, for all the world, to be metal given the way it's bent.  

 

Finally, I'm guessing standard PC10 dope for the wheel covers.  I've seen other pics of postwar 11 Sqn machines that show light-toned wheel covers (eg in "British Aviation Squadron Markings of WW1" there are pics of A7130, A7131, C4846 and E2428).   Perhaps 11 Sqn used different coloured wheel covers to indicate the different flights?  If so, it's possible the wheel covers on E2602 are blue but that's probably wishful thinking on my part and PC10 is more likely.  

 

I think that's just due to the differences in ambient light and angle of panels, compounded by the whole cowling being rather battered. Note that in the middle photo the lower bit looks darker, but in the top photo it appears uniform and in the bottom one lighter.

 

I've thoroughly confised myself in the past trying to decide on colours around the radiator. The thing is, the very front of the cowling seems to be most often painted with whatever colour the main cowling panels have, usually battleship grey. Then there's the radiator sides, behind it which could be brass or a steel colour, or may even be overpainted. Then there's the question of how quickly the painted bits weather and flake off. In the case of your example it looks almost like bare metal as you say. Not impossible, but unusual. Perhaps it was a replacement and they were short of paint. Or it might just be painted white - it only looks metallic because of the reflection 1/3rd way down the side in the centre picture, which as ever may just be down to the lighting.

 

I think those wheel covers are PC10. Comparing them to the blue fuselage cockade areas, they're quite different, whereas allowing for different illumination I think they're quite like the fuselage sides.

 

 

Paul.

 

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7 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

 

I think that's just due to the differences in ambient light and angle of panels, compounded by the whole cowling being rather battered. Note that in the middle photo the lower bit looks darker, but in the top photo it appears uniform and in the bottom one lighter.

 

I've thoroughly confised myself in the past trying to decide on colours around the radiator. The thing is, the very front of the cowling seems to be most often painted with whatever colour the main cowling panels have, usually battleship grey. Then there's the radiator sides, behind it which could be brass or a steel colour, or may even be overpainted. Then there's the question of how quickly the painted bits weather and flake off. In the case of your example it looks almost like bare metal as you say. Not impossible, but unusual. Perhaps it was a replacement and they were short of paint. Or it might just be painted white - it only looks metallic because of the reflection 1/3rd way down the side in the centre picture, which as ever may just be down to the lighting.

 

I think those wheel covers are PC10. Comparing them to the blue fuselage cockade areas, they're quite different, whereas allowing for different illumination I think they're quite like the fuselage sides.

 

 

Paul.

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Concur the cowling ring may, indeed, be white and not natural metal.  What are your thoughts about the darker stripe just aft of it?  It's visible on all 3 images so I doubt that it's caused by damage from the crash.  

 

The more I look at the wheels, the more I think they're lighter-toned than the PC-10, perhaps more like the roundel blue shade.  Then again, the wheel covers are a different shape to the slab-sides of the fuselage so  you may be right and I could just be seeing a trick of the light.  

 

Kind regards,

Mark

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Mike, the dark colour behind the light ring is what I meant  when I said radiator sides. It's  actually the (usually) unpainted outer casing of the radiator, which is why it should be brass if unpainted. The little bleb above it (when you turn it right way up), visible in the 2nd crash photo, is the filler cap.

 

Forgot to mention, hard to tell but I think the prop was a standard wooden 2 blader. If fabric bound they could often look like that when pranged.

 

I'm still pretty sure the wheels are PC10 - usual problems with being in stronger light than the sides, and more importantly against a contrasting light background, so I wouldn't want to bet on it.

 

Cheers,        Paul.

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4 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

Mike, the dark colour behind the light ring is what I meant  when I said radiator sides. It's  actually the (usually) unpainted outer casing of the radiator, which is why it should be brass if unpainted. The little bleb above it (when you turn it right way up), visible in the 2nd crash photo, is the filler cap.

 

Forgot to mention, hard to tell but I think the prop was a standard wooden 2 blader. If fabric bound they could often look like that when pranged.

 

I'm still pretty sure the wheels are PC10 - usual problems with being in stronger light than the sides, and more importantly against a contrasting light background, so I wouldn't want to bet on it.

 

Cheers,        Paul.

 

Ahhh...now I understand.  Knowing what I'm looking for now, the dark stripe of the radiator side is visible in many Brisfit photos.  The light-toned cowl front is rare, though.  Like you, I'm still struggling to determine whether it's white or natural metal.

 

Thanks for the info about the prop.  Also, I fully agree with the wheels...it's really hard to tell and I'm trying very hard not to be guilty of wishful thinking...hence my preference for PC10 in the absence of compelling evidence one way or the other.

 

Did you have any thoughts about the letter 'D'?  I suspect the wartime white letter was overpainted with either red or black to provide a sort of 3D shadow effect.  Any additional thoughts or ideas would be welcome.


Kind regards,
Mark

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15 hours ago, mhaselden said:

 

 

Did you have any thoughts about the letter 'D'?  I suspect the wartime white letter was overpainted with either red or black to provide a sort of 3D shadow effect.  Any additional thoughts or ideas would be welcome.


Kind regards,
Mark

 

Post war drop shadow-shading, indeed, but there's no way to tell if it's red or black.  I don't think they'd have repainted the light bit, so that'd still be white.

By the way, the dark rectangle  on the cowling, starboard side, more or less level with the circular magneto access hole and the air scoop, is some form of brass data panel. I only just noticed, and I've built more than 20 F2B models over the years. Looking at various photos, it's not always present. Probably identified in some photos, but I'll have to go back through my books with the right search image in my head. What isn't clear in your photos is whether or not it's the actual panel or a dark patch where it was before it fell off or was removed. Ho hum, little details.............

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8 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

 

Post war drop shadow-shading, indeed, but there's no way to tell if it's red or black.  I don't think they'd have repainted the light bit, so that'd still be white.

By the way, the dark rectangle  on the cowling, starboard side, more or less level with the circular magneto access hole and the air scoop, is some form of brass data panel. I only just noticed, and I've built more than 20 F2B models over the years. Looking at various photos, it's not always present. Probably identified in some photos, but I'll have to go back through my books with the right search image in my head. What isn't clear in your photos is whether or not it's the actual panel or a dark patch where it was before it fell off or was removed. Ho hum, little details.............

 

Given the tonal similarity to the sides of the radiator, I'd suggest the brass panel is still in place.  I don't see the grey fading that much even for relatively long-lived airframes like E2602.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on the fuselage letter.  I think I'll go with red just because it's more colourful (and nobody can tell me I'm wrong!).  I'm guessing the serial would be repeated in white-outlined black numerals on the rudder.  That certainly seems to be the case with most of the other 11 Sqn Brisfits I've seen.  

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Apologies for the continuing stream of questions but the first pic appears to show a dark-toned tube between the fuselage and the upper wing, just in front of the pilot's cockpit.  Any thoughts on what that might be?  

 

A similar item is visible in this image:

 

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Is it a gun sight?

 

Edited by mhaselden
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13 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

Apologies for the continuing stream of questions but the first pic appears to show a dark-toned tube between the fuselage and the upper wing, just in front of the pilot's cockpit.  Any thoughts on what that might be?  

Pilot's Aldis sight for the Vickers gun. Usually black.

 

Paul.

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On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 10:06 PM, Paul Thompson said:

Pilot's Aldis sight for the Vickers gun. Usually black.

 

Paul.

 

Many thanks Paul.  Since it's not visible on many photos, I wondered whether it was a sight or some other contraption (although a sight made most sense).

 

I do appreciate your help with my seemingly endless stream of questions.  

 

Kind regards,
Mark

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No problem. If making a model, you should note that the sight is actually attached to the upper wing. All those little details are very clearly depicted in both Windsock Datafile Specials, although the first one is more appropriate for wartime machines.

 

Cheers,    Paul.

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Funnily enough I just ordered the Windsock Datafile Special #1, not least because it includes a photo of another Brisfit that my cousin flew.  

 

I'm definitely interested in making a model of E2602.  I have the Eduard kit in the stash but it'll be at least 4 years before I get to it because the stash is in storage while I complete an overseas assignment.  That said, the WNW kit does keep tempting me.  I just worry that I'm not a good enough modeler to do it justice.  

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1 minute ago, mhaselden said:

Funnily enough I just ordered the Windsock Datafile Special #1, not least because it includes a photo of another Brisfit that my cousin flew.  

 

I'm definitely interested in making a model of E2602.  I have the Eduard kit in the stash but it'll be at least 4 years before I get to it because the stash is in storage while I complete an overseas assignment.  That said, the WNW kit does keep tempting me.  I just worry that I'm not a good enough modeler to do it justice.  

Don't get intimidated - so long as you double read the manual and obsess with making sure there is no paint on the mating surfaces, WNW kits are engineered to go together as easily as possible given the subject matter, and getting the top wing on and aligned is much easier than for other manufacturer's F2b kits.

 

The Eduard kit gives you Sutton harness for the pilot, one of my pet annoyances. You may have found them in post war Mk 3s and 4s, but a wartime machine would normally have a wide lap belt (also for the observer). Wingnuts gets this right. Best of luck anyway, whatever the kit. If there's anything I can help with feel free to ask.

 

Paul.

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On 6/16/2019 at 11:05 AM, mhaselden said:

Part of my confusion over the wheel covers lies in the contradictory info contained in "British Aviation Squadron Markings of WW1".  According to the book, flight colours and individual aircraft letters/numbers were assigned as follows:

 

A Flt:  White, 1 thru 6

B Flt:  Red, A thru G

C Flt:  Blue, U thru Z

 

However, the book contains photos of W2428 'Y' and an unidentified airframe 'W' both with very pale wheel covers.  Conversely, we have E2586 '6' with dark wheel covers.  The pics that tally with the A Flt description above all show aircraft with the white bars either side of the fuselage roundel, whereas the pics of 'Y' and 'W' lack those markings.  Perhaps the flight colours or individual letters/numbers changed at some time during the life of the squadron, maybe after the bar markings were removed in late March 1918? 

If I didn’t know from the above that D should be red, I’d say the wheels look the same shade as the blue in the roundel. I’d presume they’d use the same red, white and blue paint for both wheels and roundels.

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