Streamlined Blues - Caudron C.561

[greggles.w]

With my Short Crusader build stalled while I'm away for the school holidays, I have been using the break to pause & refect ... on what to build next!

 

I've settled on this spectacularly stylish, if somewhat under-performing, machine from near the end of the lineage of pre-war French racers:

 

The Caudron C.561.

 

Here I submit my inspiration, this wonderful artwork as drawn by Laurent Negroni:

 

 

The above illustrations are extracted from his beautiful book 'Speedbirds 1: Schneider Trophy 1913 - 1931' which I regularly revisit again & again.

 

And as further inspiration, this mythical contest between the Caudron & Marcoux-Bromberg R-3 Special - wouldn't that have been awesome!:

 

 

From the graphic novel 'Beyond the Clouds 1: the Duel' illustrated by Romain Hugaul.

 

or perhaps this mythical duel with a Gee Bee:

 

 

Another by Laurent Negroni from his blog site: 

 

http://speedbirds.blogspot.com.au/?m=1

 

The kit is by POMK, at 1/48, in resin .. and it's at home .. so I can't post much more than the box art from online:

 

 

So I decided to launch this thread ahead of time in order to throw a few questions out there:

 

1. Can anyone recommend a definitive reference book on these French racers, which might include this machine?

 

&

 

2. Just which blue is the right blue!??

 

Thanks for looking in, and I hope to be up & running before too long!

 

g.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by greggles.w
One more motivational image! .. & another ;-P

[Mitch K]

Very interesting! I've got a very detailed book on the Cr714, and I wondered if that might have anything but sadly it has nothing about the 561. Good luck!

[gingerbob]

Not actually the Hughes racer- see link.

 

Looking forward to the build, afraid I can't help you with French blues!

[greggles.w]

12 hours ago, Mitch K said:

Very interesting! I've got a very detailed book on the Cr714, and I wondered if that might have anything but sadly it has nothing about the 561. Good luck!

 

Thanks Mitch! Appreciate you taking the time to check your references.

 

6 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Not actually the Hughes racer- see link.

 

Correction noted & made, thanks.  And that R-3 certainly is 'special' - what a fine looking machine! Another for the wish-list.  I can see there is a Dekno kit at 1/72 ... haven't found one at 1/48 ... but, enough, first the Caudron!

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Greggles ... Not sure but i remember reading somewhere that plane may have painted in original 1930's Eduard Bugatti paints. As Bugatti seemed to favor blue and red over the black bodywork on his cars. And it does seem close to the 1930's bugatti blue. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle
Added

[greggles.w]

On 17/07/2017 at 10:24 AM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Not sure but i remember reading somewhere that plane may have painted in original 1930's Eduard Bugatti paints.

 

Thank-you.  This does align with what others are saying .. next challenge will be: what colour is 1930's Bugatti Blue!

 

No capacity for making tonight, so I thought instead I would introduce the kit.  It's POMK, 'made in the USA' it says on the box, though it seems there was another boxing - or bagging - under the Pend Orielle label.  Reviews online are .. lukewarm at best, but favour this POMK version which is nice.

 

As I understand it the 561 combined the best features of it's stable-mates: the wings & retractable landing gear of the 460 & 461; the distinctive flush cockpit, fuselage, graceful curved tail & rudder of the 461; and the air-cooled inverted Renault V12 of the 560.  So I thought it might be useful to dig out these two kits for a cross check:

 

 

So first the upper wings.  This kit at top, then the white metal of the LDM kit, then the resin of the JMGT kit:

 

 

Looks good .. the photo suggests the total span is reduced relative to the LDM wings, but this is just because I didn't lay the parts out with allowance for the wing root stubs on this kit's fuselage.

 

Next the lower wings:

 

 

Again all looks fine to me.  Interestingly the nicest rendition of the fabric control surfaces is on the LDM metal wings. This detail is completely absent from this kit.  Note three different ways to deal with the undercarriage.  Again the LDM shape looks most appealing - possibly just because it's complete - but I'm not too worried as I think I'll be doing this kit wheels-up.

 

Next the fuselage:

 

 

I can work with that.  Rudder profile curve is a bit too wobbly for my liking, but that can be remedied.  All detail is recessed, which for the fabric portions is not ideal, and the recesses are a bit clogged with resin dust.  Hopefully easily removed.

 

Fuselage interior:

 

 

Hmm ... pretty rough mating faces.   And that's it for cockpit detail!  Nothing else provided, not even a seat.  Another reason for displaying in-flight, filling that space with a suitably dashing pilot.

 

The front end will need some refining .. and that's not a radiator under the prop, we should see the first two cylinders of that inverted V12:

 

 

The remaining resin bits:

 

 

Prop & tail planes nice & workable, the undercarriage doors & wheels less so.

 

White metal bits:

 

 

Another prop - much rougher - and undercarriage bits.  Pretty rough again, so wheels-up it is!

 

And so to the canopy:

 

 

I'm setting the bar quite high for this part as it really is the most distinctive & eye-catching element of this design.  It ought to be celebrated.  These don't make the grade I think.  Even on my preliminary research I don't think the detail is right, never mind the wrinkles & poor transparency.  I foresee this cockpit & canopy area is where the bulk of my time will be spent.

 

Finally, decals:

 

 

A bit hard to photograph these white markings.  Equally hard to know if they will be sufficiently opaque over 'Bugatti Blue', or if they will hold together, given their age.  Lettering is very crisp however, so let's hope that's a good sign.

 

So that's what we're working with. I'm still excited!

 

To finish, here's one more photo to justify the effort.  I think it's actually the straight-six stable-mate, the 461, but the profile is the same .. as is the purpose - go faster!!

 

 

[Fastcat]

Hi Greggles,

                     Some interesting stuff here: http://www.manosparnai.lt/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?33377.70      and here:http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~solidmodel/items/drawing/caudoron-C.561.jpg

 

Don't know if you're aware of these drawings.

As to the colour, there's been several Bugatti blues. One of them (for the aircraft reconstruction) is included in the first link. For the cars you can see two on the same car if you look for the Bugatti T57G. The other thing is that there's no evidence that I can recall that says it was really Bugatti Blue.

And of course there's the Caudron C 460 copy which looks different in every shot! And it seems that two different blues were used on the original.

With most models that I've seen, the modeller has made up a colour to suit his take on things. 

You'll maybe end up doing the same.

 

Dave.

PS Renaissance do a 1/32 model of this.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Im not an expert on cars especially vintage classics like original bugatti cars. The few I've seen with the blue seem to remind me of the blue used by the 352nd fighter group in WW2. Maybe a little darker and richer in tone. 

[Fastcat]

Hi CorsairF4U,

                       That would be nearer to the darker of the colours. The classic early paint was a much lighter blue see here:   http://www.colourlovers.com/color/3D8EBE/Bugatti_Blue

A darker blue, more like the colour you describe was probably used in the '30s. The Bugatti aircraft had its own mix.

The colour is discussed here:http://www.bugattipage.com/jacob/infohunt/q-085.html among other places and as usual is pretty inconclusive.

It's much the same for Ferrari Red, British Racing Green and pretty much every colour you care to name. Aircraft camouflage colours are no exception - everyone has a preferred source.

It's really hard to interpret a colour from black and white photos because the light, exposure and film could affect the shade. With civil aircraft there's often no standard, the roundel colour for example to compare against. 

 

It's probably more important to pick a consistent colour if you have more than one model to paint.

 

Dave

 

[greggles.w]

10 hours ago, Fastcat said:

Some interesting stuff here

 

Hello again dave .. most interesting thank you!

 

10 hours ago, Fastcat said:

Don't know if you're aware of these drawings.

 

The first I had seen in a Bent Throttles article I think, but the other is new to me.  It has a little more detail, but it looks to have been drafted in CAD so I suspect it's yet another recent interpretation.

 

10 hours ago, Fastcat said:

PS Renaissance do a 1/32 model of this.

 

Yes, I have seen that. It looks lovely, but outside my chosen scale.  More here for those who haven't seen it:

 

http://www.renaissance-models.com/ter/index.php/avions-toutes-echelles/echelle-1-32/produits/2349-caudron-c561

 

Of even more interest though is this thread I found by the maker of that kit's master.  Few words, but the pictures tell the craftsman's story:

 

https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/topic/3174-scratch-caudron-c-561-132/

 

I note that the Renaissance instructions quote a particular 'Bleu': RAL 5017 - a dark blue as shown on their completed example - while the master maker says he used 'Bugatti Blue' - the lighter blue as shown on his finished item.  

 

So I think you're right Dave, pick a favourite & run with it!

 

 

 

[roadrunner]

Hello,

I see we have the same kits, I have the JMGT C461 too....

the best book about Caudron racer is the Docavia n°43 Les avion Caudron Renault.

But now very hard to find.

send my a Email adress via MP, I have some thing for you.....

[Fastcat]

Hi greggles,

                  Added the Renaissance kit as an afterthought because I know Etienne likes to get his kits as accurate as possible and there could be some useful info. I see the master modeller used the Harry Robinson plans as in Bent Throttles.

The same guy used Xtracolor 336 earlier in his article. That's known as British Midland Blue but was discontinued. Later he seems to use a Revell Email colour but they don't appear to make one that corresponds to RAL 5017 exactly.

None of them are called Bugatti Blue. Maybe he didn't want to get into an argument about which Revell colour is closest!

There are Humbrol, Vallejo and Tamiya equivalents to most of the Revell blues.

 

Incidentally, the photo sequence of the finished model shows the problem of choosing a colour. The first shots give the impression of a lighter blue against a blue background whereas against the neutral grey it looks decidedly darker.

 

I'll have the same problem when I do the odd Bugatti or two that are lurking in my stash!

 

Good luck with your search and looking forward to watching the build.

 

Dave