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Like being hit by a Panther, Clive.  And we all know how well that usually turned out.  Basically the same ballistics here.  The Panther's 75mm gun had as good penetration as the Tiger's 88 out to about 1,000-1,200m, beyond which the 88 shell carried its energy better.  And the IDF worked and trained hard on marksmanship, resulting in a very high single shot kill probability.  The 105 in the M51 was even more fearsome, notwithstanding shortening the barrel and cartridge and reducing the propellant so the gun stayed attached to the tank and didn't exit stage rear.

 

I hadn't realised until Mr Bullbasket pointed it out just how Dragon had goofed with the rear idler position on the M50.  When you look again it's screamingly obvious - way too for out the back. The back should be about level with the upper rear hull, not half a wheel behind it.  Dragon had done M4A4s before: how did they get this one so wrong?  Box arts are correct.  Isn't it the standard A4 lower tub? Or were the early A4 toolings all wrong?  Do Dragon have a spare parts service?  Cos I could do with 3 later A4 lower hulls rather than conduct surgery on the M50 parts.  Oh Asuka, wherefore art thy M50 and M51?

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15 hours ago, PhilHendry said:

Looks great! And...

 

YAY - PHOTOS!!! I began to think photos on BM were a thing of the past, after the Photobucket debacle!

Thanks Phil. Yep, good old Village Photos, my friend, unless they too start mucking about!

 

John.

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14 hours ago, clive_t said:

Superb work. You can plainly see the Sherman shape, but that gun barrel is enormous! I imagine the muzzle velocity would have meant that if that thing hit you, you stayed hit!

Thanks Clive. Yes it is a beast of a gun, but not as much as the M51's. That IS a beast.

 

John.

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14 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

I hadn't realised until Mr Bullbasket pointed it out just how Dragon had goofed with the rear idler position on the M50.  When you look again it's screamingly obvious - way too for out the back. The back should be about level with the upper rear hull, not half a wheel behind it.  Dragon had done M4A4s before: how did they get this one so wrong?  Box arts are correct.  Isn't it the standard A4 lower tub? Or were the early A4 toolings all wrong?  Do Dragon have a spare parts service?  Cos I could do with 3 later A4 lower hulls rather than conduct surgery on the M50 parts.  Oh Asuka, wherefore art thy M50 and M51?

I just read Terry Ashley's review on PMMS of Dragon's Sherman Vc, and in it he says that they have corrected the hull length problem and included a new back plate. That review was dated 2003, so any M4A4 based kit after that from Dragon should be ok.

 

John.

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15 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

 

I hadn't realised until Mr Bullbasket pointed it out just how Dragon had goofed with the rear idler position on the M50.  When you look again it's screamingly obvious - way too for out the back. The back should be about level with the upper rear hull, not half a wheel behind it.  Dragon had done M4A4s before: how did they get this one so wrong?  Box arts are correct.  Isn't it the standard A4 lower tub? Or were the early A4 toolings all wrong?  Do Dragon have a spare parts service?  Cos I could do with 3 later A4 lower hulls rather than conduct surgery on the M50 parts.  Oh Asuka, wherefore art thy M50 and M51?

Early Dragon A4s were indeed well-wrong in the area of the idler position and spacing to the rearmost bogie - it's a long, long, time since I built one, but it was a significant number of mm - requiring surgery to get it looking half-decent.

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I moved the idler forward approx. 5mm, which in itself doesn't sound much until you scale it up 35 times. That's 175mm which is around 7 inches. That is very noticeable.

 

John.

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17 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

 Do Dragon have a spare parts service?  Cos I could do with 3 later A4 lower hulls rather than conduct surgery on the M50 parts.  Oh Asuka, wherefore art thy M50 and M51?

I think that they do in the States but I've not heard of one in the UK. You could always try Creative Models and The Hobby Company. Both claim to be UK importers of Dragon. If you want A4 lower hulls, have a look at Asuka's on line shop. Their prices for Sherman spares is very reasonable. It's just their p&p that is a bit steep.

To build a (fairly) accurate M50, you've either got to do the work yourself, drivers hoods, turret bustle shape and overlong lower hull, or get the Shapeways turret. But you'd still have to do the other corrections. I think that Greg Beuchler also does a turret for the M50.

As for the M51, I still think the best route to go down is the Tamiya kit. It's the early model, but with a bit of modelling all four batch models can be built.

 

John.

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I've got a pair of Academy M51s that I got before the Tamiya offering appeared, one to do as Chilean with Greg Beuchler's conversion.  They can still work up nicely.  I have his Chilean M60 mod too, but not with the modded drivers' hoods.  He's been talking about doing an Argentine Repotenciado and Lebanese Firefly conversions.  I have donor kits ready.  Both are actually straightforward anyway apart from the Repo muzzle brake - same as AMX13/105 - but I'm inherently lazy and have far too many stash projects.

 

I've just pulled down my 3 M50s.  They're all the same and the hull is the same size as my Cyber Hobby M4A4 re-box, so I think I'm OK.  The lower hull vertical sides are 13cm long between upright ends and "look right". 

 

 

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The only things that I don't like about the Academy kits are the oversized muzzle brake and the orange peel surface detail.

My M50 was the original Dragon issue, but the one that I have in the stash is the reissue with Israeli ground troops. I've not checked, but hopefully it has the corrected lower hull dimensions.

 

John.

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I'm sure someone like Shapeways or Click2Detail does a replacement M51 brake.  Tamiya have got this nearest to right so far.  Dragon were first too small and now too large AFAIK.  I don't think the Academy one looks overly large, even if it is.  DEF include an early pattern brake in their Alef conversion set, but for the money you might as well get a spare complete M4A1 kit and have lots of useful spares (£23 or more for a rear plate and front engine deck plus a muzzle brake).  Not that this solves the muzzle brake.  I am surprised that none of the AM resin guys have done one: incorrect kits have been around for many years.  No one does an alloy barrel either.  Alloy barrel with resin brake, anyone?  RB? Voyager? DEF? Anyone?  I'm using Russian 100mm barrels: can't recall if D10 or B3.

 

I think the Academy A1 hull casting texture is OK.  Nowhere near as bad as the early Dragon A1 kits.  As I wander round Bovington every couple of weeks I never cease to be amazed at how crude some of the cast finishes actually are.  The worst I've seen is the Ram, surprisingly.  But the early A1 Michael and the Grizzly A1 both have noticeable texture not attributable to poor over-painting or ferrous beetle.

 

But to come back into the room, this is a really nice M50 and I am both impressed and worried that I can't get even close to this standard.

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You're too kind, and thank you. Yes an AM barrel for the M51 is long overdue. It would have to be approached the same way as DEF did with the M50 as that muzzle brake would be a bit tricky.

 

John.

Edited by Bullbasket
Lousy typing.
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Well DEF have managed it for the Alef version, so they ought to be able to do the later style.  And as you point out they've done the CN-75 barrel and brake, also long overdue since the demise of Barrel Depot.  Didn't like their white metal brake.  But we had to wait for the arrival of EBR and promise of AMX13 to stimulate a new one.  The M51 brake is completely unique and the barrel shorter compared to other CN105 versions, which all either have the double-baffle version of the CN75 style or the more rounded shape seen on AMX10 and some Kurassier.

 

I'm hoping for the double-baffle CN105 type barrel and brake from DEF or someone for my Repotenciado.  Same as for the AMX13/105 kit.  There's a 90mm barrel by MR Modellbau, so we're only missing the 105 barrel.  C'mon someone.........  Now if AN Other company is going to do the CN105 barrel for the AMX13, please do the M51 and AMX10 derivatives.  With so much of the longer 105 barrel buried in the AMX13 turret, I don't think the exposed length will be a million miles different from the M51 length so the same alloy part might work for both with perhaps a bit of mantlet drilling-out.

 

Hello DEF.  Anyone there?  knock knock ..........

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6th Update. Weathering and Tracks.

 

Before proceeding to the weathering stage, I added a camouflage net and a tarpaulin made from tissue soaked in PVA glue to the left hand side of the hull rear, and some crew kit wrapped in tarpaulin to the rear stowage bin. I also added straps to the latter before painting both lots with acrylics.

The handles on the pioneer tools were painted cream and then wiped with burnt umber oil paint. The same treatment was given to the gun cleaning rods. The dust cover around the mantlet was painted with a canvas coloured acrylic and then given a dark wash.

I kept the weathering fairly simple because most photos that I have of these tanks show them with just a dust covering. A dark pin wash didn't really show up on this dark green, so I applied a thin line of raw umber oil paint around ventilators, hatches etc, and then blended it in with a brush dampened with thinners. Various MIG pigments, Europe Dust, Africa Earth and Gulf War Sand, were applied all over, paying particular attention to the lower hull.

 

6203f4a6-1ccf-4c18-84f4-2568997580d4.jpg

 

41140cee-d688-4db0-88c7-d341478822d8.jpg

 

6c1722a3-8a6a-4951-85c9-e7733d574090.jpg

 

Final couple of jobs were the aerials (Accurate Armour), and the tracks. I used the T54E1 tracks from Panda who supply sufficient number of links to cover the A4 lengthened hull, and still have some left over. They can be assembled without using glue so that they remain semi workable, because the end links are a snug fit.

Once assembled, I sprayed them with a mixture of Tamiya black and brown and then coated them with a slurry made from MIG's Gulf War Sand. When it had dried, I removed most of it with an old tooth brush, then assembled them around the sprockets, idlers and suspension. The metal chevrons were rubbed with an HB pencil as were the parts of the wheels that would rub against the links.

 

6294c99d-7962-45b9-a7e5-4a6ed677a1aa.jpg

 

One last item. The headlamp lenses are 3.5mm ones from Little Cars.

And that's just about it. I used up a lot of spare parts, but I also used some parts from complete kits, so there will be a few more Frankenshermans in the future. Now all that remained to do was to put it on a suitable base and add a figure for scale effect. Thanks to all for following along with the build and I'll be posting it in RFI soon.

 

John.

 

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13 hours ago, Kris B said:

Good job John. 

 

1 hour ago, FrancisGL said:

Stunning result for now!, i like a lot...:popcorn:, cheers John :D

Thanks both of you. Much appreciated.

 

John.

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If I hadn't been following this thread and had just been shown this last set of pics, I would be utterly convinced I was looking at photos of a real tank. Mind blowing realism!!!

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14 minutes ago, Antoine said:

Guys, don't want to hijack, but do you know the way to order something from Greg Beuchler? Or a listing of his products?

Hard to find an actual site for him but you could try contacting him direct at [email protected]

If you want to see some of his products, have a look here.http://the-sherman-shop.freeforums.net/thread/228/chilean-m51-sherman-conversion-tamiya

 

John.

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45 minutes ago, clive_t said:

If I hadn't been following this thread and had just been shown this last set of pics, I would be utterly convinced I was looking at photos of a real tank. Mind blowing realism!!!

Clive, that is very nice of you to say so, and I really appreciate it. I hope to be putting it in RFI in the next couple of days.

 

John. 

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My quest for bits for yet more IDF Shermans has taken a recent turn for the expensive.  Rather than faff around looking for parts, sprues etc I raided Kits For Cash as he had a bunch of Dragon and a lone Academy Shermans at good prices, £23-28 and a Tasca VVSS set.  I also manged to snag a Dragon sprue set on eBay with an M50 turret, T80 indy link tracks, Cummins engine deck and other bits.  I got outbid in literally the last second on another lot with another turret and upper hull.  I'm about to spend some money on Shapeways too: going to try their M50 mantlet and bustle turret conversion among other things.

 

I bought the Sherman kits for what is in the boxes, rather than what the manufacturers intended to come out of them.  Dragon always come with loads of spares, but I'll need to replace 3 sets of DS tracks: too risky by far, it seems, according to threads on other forums.  I might pick up another Academy M51 (Tamiya needs just as much help overall IMHO) as you can get them from Korea for under £20 shipped, although there's a late-version Dragon one on eBay.  So I now have this mash-up to play with on top of the stuff I already had:

 

1 A4 hull

1 Composite hull

1 small hatch A1 hull

2 late welded hulls (less useful)

1 T23 large hatch turret

2 T23 small hatch turrets

2 M50 turrets

1 75mm late twin hatch turret

2 HVSS suspensions

5 VVSS suspensions

2 Cummins engine decks

2 A3 engine decks (less useful)

2+ Continental engine deck

possibly 1 A4 engine deck 

 

Should be able to do some IDF cutting and shutting with that lot ...........  Other engine decks are fairly easy to find.  I'll have some spares anyway from a Lebanese VC Firefly with the diesel conversion (had modded A2 deck), an Argentine 1C Hybrid Repotenciado and whatever is left from Chilean re-engined M51 and M50/60s.

 

Now, where's the shop selling extended lifetimes .........

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20 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Now, where's the shop selling extended lifetimes .........

They got taken over by Photobucket!!

Nice little collection of parts that you have there. Should keep you occupied for a while. There have been some not too encouraging postings on other sits regarding the DS tracks. Seems they don't last very long once painted. Personally, I'll go down the Panda rout every time.

 

John.

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