Spitfire crash in France

[fatalbert]

Have seen film of a late mark griffon Spitfire tipping over on take off.sorry I can't figure how to share the link.It happened today 11june 17.pilot and a spectator injured.

[fatalbert]

It's the mk14 in far east theatre markings I think.

[ocatlub]

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Different angle showing the full (very brief!) take off run. I hear the pilot was Cedric Ruet and that he was texting to say he was ok. I haven't heard about the spectator apparently hit by propeller blade debris and hope she's ok too. The Spitfire, IIRC, had its propeller diameter trimmed by about a foot a couple of years ago nosing too far on landing. The poor aircraft looks substantially damaged but fortunately all the tooling and expertise one could want exists for Spitfires so if the money is there the aircraft can be rebuilt to fly again - which I very much hope turns out to be the case.

 

 

[Mike]

That's painful to watch Good on all those folks for helping lift the airframe and get the pilot out.  How is he BTW?

[Skodadriver]

Any idea what actually happened?  I'm no expert but it looked as if the tail came up too quickly.

[Mike]

My non-experienced eye thought the tail came up a bit quick too.  Perhaps a little too much elevator, or a gust of wind pushing the back end?  I dunno... I learned that late Spit props are wooden today though

[spitfire]

That's very painful to watch, I just hope that everyone is Ok, as has been said the aircraft can be rebuilt, so the priority is the people.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Mike]

What did they used to say about Spitfire pilots?  I'm paraphrasing here - There are two types of Spitfire pilots.  Those that have nosed over, and those who haven't yet.  Typical WWII British spirit

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

That's painful to watch Good on all those folks for helping lift the airframe and get the pilot out.  How is he BTW?

 

Sickening isn't it?

[stevehnz]

It'd be good to get some solid info on the pilot's condition. As for the plane, I'm sure it will rebuild, Spitfire NH799 lost her right wing & had a badly damaged fuselage after Sir Tim Wallace' last flight in her & look at her now.

Steve.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Skodadriver said:

Any idea what actually happened?  I'm no expert but it looked as if the tail came up too quickly.

 

I feel rather under qualified to comment given I have a whopping 10 hours tailwheel time altogether, and at that on very modestly powered benign types with minimal power and swing effects from torque, spiral airflow and gyroscopic precession which basically meant you could just wang the throttle wide open and nothing bad would happen - but I know that's not the case for most high power propeller driven tail draggers. Nevertheless, you apply the power as appropriate, either gently lift the tail with down elevator or let the tail come up of its own accord and settle the aircraft into an attitude such that it will fly itself off the ground when sufficient airspeed is achieved. You're looking for the right "picture" out the windscreen - i.e. horizon relative to bits of aeroplane in your view. As the power comes on the aircraft will begin to yaw, and as the tail comes up the gyroscopic precession will swing the nose harder - the heavier the propeller itself (and one of these is hefty - I owned a blade from one of these) and the sharper the pitch, the harder the swing - so you're managing rudder as you do this. On the little things I flew the power and adverse effects are modest and the controls relatively powerful. On big warbirds, how you manage the engine is more about how effective the controls are.

 

I've seen the tail come up that fast on Spits before in a stiff headwind and I've heard power come on that fast on Spits in a stiff headwind also. In tail draggers with lockable tailwheels or skids in general you want the tail down as you start rolling until the rudder becomes effective from slipstream (both from the propeller and airspeed), conflicting in some taildraggers with a desire to be able to see where you're going. Like many fortunates, I was lucky to meet the late Mark Hanna on the last day of my RAF Flying Scholarship in the summer of 1998 who let/encouraged me to strap in to Mk.IX MH434 and it'll come as no surprise that you can't see a damned thing forwards when sat on the ground.

 

Cedric Ruet has been the French air force's Rafale solo display pilot and is not a fool, and nor is he one of the jealously accused "over moneyed  amateurs" that bystanders love to hate. That said, tricycle fly-by-wire jets and last generation piston tail-dragger fighters are not very similar, besides the necessary attitude and mindset of the display pilot.

 

From what we can see, possible causes MAY include a burst tyre, running into soft ground, inadvertent application of wheel brakes or simply gunning the throttle open too fast and failing to check the nose-down pitch until it was too late. I've studied the above videos a bit and full up elevator (or any visible up elevator) is not applied until the blades first strike the ground.

[Mike]

It did dive in to one side, so perhaps a tyre went?  It's all speculation though, and the truth will out eventually.  main thing is that he's ok, followed by the aircraft

[cngaero]

I hope that the pilot is ok. As for the aeroplane, that can be repaired.

If I remember correctly, a late mark Spitfire has only about 6-8 inches of propeller clearance when in a level attitude with the tail up on the ground. That doesn't give much leeway on a bumpy runway. 

[TonyTiger66]

Yours truly can read French (fairly well, not perfectly; Normans in the family....).

I read this article:

http://www.republicain-lorrain.fr/edition-de-longwy/2017/06/12/l-avion-capote-au-decollage-aucun-mort-des-blesses

 

It doesn't give the reason for the crash. Apparently the emergency services arrived around 20 minutes after the accident (I'm surprised there were non on site, is this usual?). There was a lot of fuel on the runway, so they decided to use the (I think highly corrosive?) foam to make sure that there was no risk at all of fire from the fuel.

Spectators helped lift the aircraft, they were almost sure that the pilot would not be alive, but he was moving. He has suffered numerous injuries, but none are regarded as grave. An eighteen year old lady was injured in the shoulder and taken to hospital; again, it is not thought to be life threatening. A man in his forties suffered an injury to the leg, but did not need to be taken to the hospital.

Another article in French suggests that this marque of Spitfire is not recommended for grass airstrips; I'm not sure if that is the case, I really know nothing much at all about Spitfires, apart from that this one looks like it sadly now has a broken spar. I also think that they're inspiring and rather wonderful aircraft .

I'm very glad that everyone is ok; it could have been terrible with all those spectators around the aircraft trying to help, a hot engine and leaking fuel. I think that's why some people start to run at a certain point.

All best regards
TonyT
 

[cngaero]

Thanks for the translation Tony, my French gave up at "L'avion".

As my old French master often said, "Could do better". 

[Antti_K]

Oh dear, this is a very sad sight:( I'm glad that no one lost their lives.

 

This is actually a PR.XIX (former PS890 of No. 81 Squadron, RAF Seletar). It is easy to "nose over" these aircraft by simply opening the throttle too fast. The elevator down force is insufficient when the aircraft is moving slowly.

 

I finished an Airfix 1/48 scale PR.XIX as PS890 and it suffered an "unexplained" landing gear collapse a couple of months ago. Spooky...

 

Best Regards,

Antti

[Vickers McFunbus]

8 hours ago, stevehnz said:

It'd be good to get some solid info on the pilot's condition. As for the plane, I'm sure it will rebuild, Spitfire NH799 lost her right wing & had a badly damaged fuselage after Sir Tim Wallace' last flight in her & look at her now.

Steve.

 

Anyone who has seen the horrific footage of the loss of RR's Mk XIV crashing at Woodford in the early 90s will understand any crashed Spitfire can be restored. It's a slightly uncomfortable truth that some currently airworthy Spitfires have previously been involved in fairly recent fatal incidents (including at least 3 currently airworthy in the U.K.).

[bzn20]

When I saw the headline, I didn't expect to see something like that in slow motion. Hope the Jockey is okay, could have been really nasty.

Too much throttle and too slow for the elevators to have any effect ?

[John B (Sc)]

On 6/12/2017 at 10:50 AM, Mike said:

My non-experienced eye thought the tail came up a bit quick too.  Perhaps a little too much elevator, or a gust of wind pushing the back end?  I dunno... I learned that late Spit props are wooden today though

 

Not enough elevator and possibly throttle opened a wee bit fast - seems to be the consensus amongst the folk I've spoken to who have flown Spitfires. Spitfires were notoriously light on the tail and it was advised to start the ground roll with full back stick on grass, especially if damp. The Griffon Spits had less ground clearance than the Merlin engined variety, plus the engine is mounted with a slight down thrust I think, neither of which help.

I was told, that one snag is that if you get the tail starting to rise, chopping the throttle (of course) reduces airflow over the tail so elevator loses effect and tail rises further.  General view was that if it started to rise you were lucky to avoid a 'prop peck' at least. Tricky stuff !

 I understand there is a briefing note available somewhere online written by a test pilot or display pilot some years ago, which describes all this. Haven't found it yet, but then I am not likely to ever fly a Spitfire...

 

One friend did say this is another reason why a Hurricane would be more fun as a warbird ! (I wish I had the choice.)

 

John B 

.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by John B (Sc)

[sloegin57]

"My non-experienced eye thought the tail came up a bit quick too.  Perhaps a little too much elevator, or a gust of wind pushing the back end?  I dunno... I learned that late Spit props are wooden today though :owww:"

 

Hit "quote" for this entry just now Mike and shot to the top of the page.  Last time it happened (hitting "quote") was a couple of days ago and it flashed straight into a "502" warning.  So I crept away and did some modelling, just in case I had broken something.

 

Anyway - wooden props - know as Jablo or Hydulignum blades - densified compressed and bonded wood - very strong - been around a bit. 

 

bit of light reading for you :-

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1942/1942 - 2475.html

 

Watching the various videos around I get the impression that the stbd main wheel dug in a touch and caused the tail to lift which dug the prop in.

 

Dennis

 

[FalkeEins]

... Ruet is a seasoned display pilot as already noted, but having arrived at the airfield in Jacquard's Sea Fury he was at the controls of the 19 for the return journey -  according to  crash-aérien.news this would have been his first flight at the controls of this aircraft. Posted one good close-up that show no obvious problem with the wheels (the track was dry) but the prop appears to hit the ground as John says probably because the stick wasn't fully back. The pilot is already out of hospital with nothing more than bruising, thanking everyone present profusely for extricating him from the wreck..

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

7 hours ago, FalkeEins said:

... Ruet is a seasoned display pilot as already noted, but having arrived at the airfield in Jacquard's Sea Fury he was at the controls of the 19 for the return journey -  according to  crash-aérien.news this would have been his first flight at the controls of this aircraft. Posted one good close-up that show no obvious problem with the wheels (the track was dry) but the prop appears to hit the ground as John says probably because the stick wasn't fully back. The pilot is already out of hospital with nothing more than bruising, thanking everyone present profusely for extricating him from the wreck..

 

My bold.

 

If this is the case then it sounds a lot like he either expected a far better view out the windscreen when in a suitable tail-up takeoff attitude, and/or underestimated the well known characteristics of the Griffon Spitfire in having fairly large polar moments and being easy to nose over. Bernard Chabbert (experienced French warbird / classic aircraft pilot and resident Flying Legends airshow commentator) claims the Sea Fury is a relatively easy aircraft to fly compared to other warbirds. The view is relatively good forward with the cockpit elevated compared to Typhoon and Tempest, the undercarriage is well forward and wide-track making ground handling easier than some other types and it's both stable and predictable to control. The Griffon Spitfire by comparison is not described as having those user-friendly qualities; rather it was a hot-rod that pushed the Spitfire as far as it was going to go - marginal view forwards, a bit vague in pitch and yaw, still heavy ailerons, unstable on its undercarriage and despite quite a bit of geometric downthrust built in, every change in throttle requires the pilot to retrim - it is by most accounts a high performance handful!

[Mike]

7 hours ago, FalkeEins said:

The pilot is already out of hospital with nothing more than bruising, thanking everyone present profusely for extricating him from the wreck..

 

Good news & well said

[Truro Model Builder]

And that is what is important. Any aircraft, even one such as this, is expendable. People are not.