US Navy / Marines "Red" edging on undercarraige doors?

[Rabbit Leader]

Guys,

 

Just working on the Airfix A-4B Skyhawk and have just completed assembly and painted a number of smaller items such as wheels, undercarriage doors, tail hook etc. 

After a bit of fluffing around, I've managed to obtain reasonable results with the 'red' warning paint applied to the edges of the undercarriage doors as seen on a number of US Navy & Marine aircraft in the grey/white hi-viz scheme.

I've just been going through a number of early A-4 photographs and to my complete surprize cannot find too many examples of A-4B's displaying these red edges, all u/c doors being painted overall white!  

 

Question - Does anyone know if the application of this Red Edging has a particular date or was part of some official specification?

 

I'm using the kit supplied VA-95 decals so this airframe saw service in Vietnam during Apr-Nov 1966. Did these red edges come into effect after this period, if so, can anyone advise when?

It would be a shame to overpaint my doors all white, however for the sake of accuracy, if I have too, I will.

 

Cheers and thanks... Dave.

 

 

 

[spruecutter96]

Hi, Dave.

 

As I understand it (and I'm no expert), the red edges were introduced to help deck-handlers not walk into the sharp edges of undercarriage doors and the like. I have no idea when this measure was introduced, but all F-14 Tomcats seem to use this "warning" paint and I THINK I've seen it on early 1970's images of F-8 Crusaders and the like.

 

Hope this is of some help.

 

Chris.  

Edited May 31, 2017 by spruecutter96
Correcting my grammar.

[JagRigger]

Wonder if this guy could help ?

 

Fascinating site, whatever

 

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/qf-86-army-target-drones.html

[alex]

@spruecutter96must be the time frame when they changed it, as I found some pictures of vietnamwar-era Crusaders and Skyhawks without the red edges.

 

Alex

[AntPhillips]

For anything US Navy aviation related topics its worth checking Tailspin Tommy's "Tailhook Topics" think this is what you're looking for:

 

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/painting-crush-points-red.html

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

7 minutes ago, AntPhillips said:

For anything US Navy aviation related topics its worth checking Tailspin Tommy's "Tailhook Topics" think this is what you're looking for:

 

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/painting-crush-points-red.html

 

 

Great website Ant, I shall bookmark and read it throughly, 

 

Cheers.. Dave

[Booty003]

I thought the red was to signify and highlight pinch points etc - I've seen F-4's with red edges around the flap area.

[ziggyfoos]

It varied for that period, best to find actual photo rather than blanket condition. It's one reason why in the AOA A-4 sheet instructions that the gear door inside is shown to indicate which schemes had the red edging.

 

For the specific VA-95 you're looking for, browse through that 66 cruisebook:

http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/index.html

 

You'll see between VA-95 and its sister squadron that some had the red edging at the time the pics were taken while others didn't.

Some examples.... without red edging

http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/055.htm

http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/263.htm

 

With red edging

http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/053.htm

http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/255.htm

Edited May 31, 2017 by ziggyfoos

[Finn]

Here are some A-4Cs in June 1967, as you can see they varied as well with different squadrons on the same carrier. Just a bit of worn red on the lower main gear door on this one:

 

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/5effeffe7c807d0e_large

 

just the edge on this door:

 

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/6531791151160360_large

 

full red on main gear door:

 

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/7c9e326db3a86dc8_large

 

none on this one:

 

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/475879808dfb121c_large

 

looks like no red on the nose gear door:

 

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/c0f865fee46f6875_large

 

red on these:

 

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/c1370ed2be33baf2_large

 

Jari

[Rabbit Leader]

Many thanks for your posts and photograph links Ziggyfoos and Fin (Jari).

It truly shows that these red warning markings were quite hit and miss, so it truly pays (as always) to check ones references.

I've also just come across this rather interesting and detailed ATF link which has some great VA-95 photographs on page 2 in addition to a large number of comments regarding the kits accuracy.

 

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47356

 

There is a photograph of VA-95's "'512" with what does appear to be red paint on the nose and main gear doors (I think?).

Either way, I'm probably going to stick with what I've done. There's plenty of evidence to denote that this was certainly around in 1966, although not as uniform as one would have first thought.

I'd better finish this one off in order to play with that VA-52 Skyraider I've also been asking questions about!

 

Cheers.. Dave (who has a lot to learn about US Navy / Marine colours). 

 

[MikeC]

If you haven't found this trick already, a red "Sharpie" marker is a quick and easy way to reproduce red edges on airbrakes etc, far easier than a paintbrush.

[Rabbit Leader]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 3:28 PM, MikeC said:

If you haven't found this trick already, a red "Sharpie" marker is a quick and easy way to reproduce red edges on airbrakes etc, far easier than a paintbrush.

 

Thanks Mike - I did stumble on this to some degree.

 

I first tried paint, then looked at the sides to realise that I'm not as steady as I thought I was!.

A few strikes of a sharp blade to remove the errant areas and then I had one of those 'light bulb' moments and found a red marker pen.

I left these to dry for a good week, then sprayed some future, this however caused the red on two doors to run a little - maybe I need a new pen?  

Once again, a slight scrape / sand and all was restored. I'm quite happy with the end result, just need to get the rest of the kit to the finish line.

 

Cheers and thanks.. Dave.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello rabbit leader, my research for Fj- Furies came up with this navy regulation. Mil-c-18263(b) aer.

Colors naval aircraft exterior. Dated 12 February 1959 i cant remember the particular website. But my google search term at the time was "U.S.Navy -aircraft colors 1954" and eventually found the above regulation pertaining the red edge warning on doors.

 

good luck 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle
Incorrect spelling of word

[raafbloke]

G’day Dave, 

                  This topic has come up again, recently (2022) while trying to establish what the USN and USMC policies were on red edging on, so-called ‘crush points’ that ran around door edges, flap interiors etc. Happily, I was, logically, led to Britmodeller for more on this topic.

This is one of those perplexing accuracy issues that are actually made more noticeable by their absence than their presence.

 

Firstly, I wanted to know what the US military’s meaning was for the term, ‘crush point’. No joy. I am still assuming that it means areas that could be dangerous in that ground crew could ‘crush’ fingers and hands on panels, doors, etc. which ‘might’ close on them during ground or deck servicing; although it seems a remote possibility unless the pilot, or the Crew Chief is in the cockpit and is ‘fiddling’ around with switches while his crew are working on the interiors.

I’m still looking for the official determination of what a crush point is, although it seems pretty much confirmed that these are panels that have a red edge on the ‘lips’ of doors, panels, etc. that can open and shut. (Not rocket science.)

 

That bit was easy. It wasn’t until I started searching for photos of these red-edged panels that frustration set in to the point where it seemed that red edging was almost a hit and miss choice made by some manufacturers. Douglas; (McDonald Douglas), who had many red edges and other companies that had, maybe a few.

 

There are many photos extant that show two, or more, identical aircraft types, side by side on a carrier deck or a flight line; one with red-edging and one without. Usually, the red edging being in the minority, depending on what year the photo was taken. The 60s and early 70s seems to be the heyday for the white liveries.

 

The, apparent, governing rule for the red edges is that they only occurred on military liveries with white, Hi-Viz paint jobs, at least in the US services. I can’t find a single example on any USN or USMC aircraft after they all went to their ‘grey’ (and boring for us modellers) liveries that, are now, the US standard for all military services, with the exception of the USCG.

 

Now, just about everything that flies for ‘Uncle Sam’ from attack jets, bombers, passenger movers, cargo planes, AEW to tactical maritime aircraft have various hues of grey... (did I mention it’s ‘crushingly’ tedious to paint up modern US military aircraft models?) This obsession with ‘grey ghosting’ aircraft has even infected the, once colourful, liveries of ‘my’ beloved RAAF aircraft.

 

So, the only way to be ‘red-edge accurate’ is to select a photo of a particular aircraft and model that individual example, retaining the aircraft’s serial and tail numbers so that you are satisfied the red edges should be in that paint scheme.

Geeze, that was a long-winded way of saying it. Sorry, I’m a retired feature writer and verbosity (AKA: column inches or centimetres) was the goal in my work.

 

Now to a much more positive and satisfying topic. 

Dave, you mentioned making those red edges, easily, with a ‘Sharpie’ brand permanent marker pen. Great idea, back in 2017.

 

As you probably know by now, and as many modelers are discovering, POSCAR brand ink pens have been responsible for a ‘quiet revolution’ when it comes to applying fine, thin lines of paint on most types of models. This might sound like a ‘plug’ for POSCAR but I can assure you I paid for every one of the 40-odd pens I acquired only after using POSCA pens a few times.

 

I was so impressed by the performance of the pens, the nib (brush) shapes and the paint delivery system, that I just had to get a wide range of colours and metallic effect pens.

Pardon the pun, but at one stroke, they changed the way I deal with fine detail painting of small kit pieces and fine details of aircraft and vehicle liveries.

Now, I don’t have to dirty 3 or 4 little brushes and mess around with multiple paint pots in 90% of my fine detail painting.

 

If I need thinner coats of the pen paint, I’ll depress the ‘brush nib’ into a little pool of thinner or leveller then gently use the pen, like a brush, to lightly apply the thinned paint. If one doesn’t put any pressure down on the nib no extra paint will come, undiluted, from inside the pen.

 

If you haven’t tried them, give them a go; they’re bonza!

I’ll get out of your way now. 

Cheers, Bill Halliwell

Edited August 13, 2022 by raafbloke

[Tailspin Turtle]

A naval aviator of my acquaintance sent me a note after he read my post about "crush" points (see link in the May 31, 2017 post above; I've also seen them called "pinch" points but that would clearly be an understatement):

 

Rick Morgan reminded me of a reason, maybe the reason, for all that red: "When I was in TRACOM we were told that the red edges to door was so that you could quickly see if one wasn’t seated properly in flight, usually while checking a wingee with an unsafe ‘up’ indication. The red under the slats also helped determine that they were deploying properly as you slowed down; an A-3 with a stuck slat could be catastrophic;  you really had to pay attention to them while slowing down... Likewise red speed brakes were great indication that they were moving (always exciting when lead forgot to warn you while descending a section in weather) Never thought over-all red was a good idea; it made hydraulic leaks harder to see."

[dnl42]

17 hours ago, raafbloke said:

As you probably know by now, and as many modelers are discovering, POSCAR brand ink pens have been responsible for a ‘quiet revolution’ when it comes to applying fine, thin lines of paint on most types of models. This might sound like a ‘plug’ for POSCAR but I can assure you I paid for every one of the 40-odd pens I acquired only after using POSCA pens a few times.

I picked up a few POSCA 0.7mm pens from a local art store today. I haven't used them for any model work yet, but a test on some paper looks very promising!