RidgeRunner Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Courageous said: What Sabres are you doing? You like Sabres? and Edited June 2, 2017 by RidgeRunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said: You like Sabres? Yes, you could say that. It's only a recent thing but the Sabre stash is growing. I like the CAC Sabres and I have a few of the Tasman conversion kits to help me along. Just wish that Aztec would reprint their decal sheet. Sabre are lovely, lovely, lovely...and Fury's of course. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I'd tread carefully if you get an Aztec set. Firstly the quality is not good. It is an early product and they tend to dissolve when dampened! Secondly the actually subjects and schemes are not wholly accurate, some based on preserved machines with spurious schemes. I have the set, part used. I scanned and reprinted bits I Wanted. Of the ones I've done the H is a favourite, as is the Venezuelean F. :). Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I promised to post some FJ-3 data, so here goes. I'll use a similar format to the recent F-86A and XP-86 posts (qv). First off, some explanation of FJ-3 production: The prototype FJ-3 was BuNo 131931 (NAA model NA-196), a converted FJ-2. The production aircraft were: BuNo 135774 thru 136162 (NAA model NA-194) – 389 FJ-3 BuNo 139210 thru 139278 (NAA model NA-215) – 69 FJ-3M BuNo 141364 thru 141443 (NAA model NA-215) – 80 FJ-3M In 1962 the US Defense Dept adopted a uniform system for designating military aircraft, and the FJ-3s were re-designated as follows: FJ-3 became F-1C FJ-3D became DF-1C FJ-3M became MF-1C FJ-3D2 became DF-1D (FJ-4/4B at the same time were re-designated F-1E/AF-1E). Here are a few schematics to start the ball rolling (all from NAA Aircraft Characteristics): 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (All images are US Navy Official, NAA Official or NMNA below) I'll start with the FJ-3 wing. There were 3 basic variants: 1. Early FJ-3: narrow-chord wing with slats (BuNo 135774 thru 136117) 2. "version 1.5" wing - as above but with x5 barrier engagement devices on wing leading edge (BuNo 135774 thru 136028 or later). 3. Later FJ-3: 6-3 unslatted leading edge with fence and camber; retaining engagement devices (BuNo 136118 and on) The 6-3 wing leading edge was later installed as a modification on many earlier FJ-3s. Incidentally, the overall dark blue factory finish gave way to gull gray over white in production some time after 136028. So in photos: Wing 1: Wing 2 ("version 1.5") with barrier engagement devices on leading edges (small fence-like pieces) - 4 on slats and 1 on inboard leading edge: Wing 3 (image mirrored to better demonstrate differences): Two Parts Catalog views to show the outer wing differences. Note particularly the camber on Item 8 in the second (Wing 3) drawing: At the inboard end, the Wing 1 and Wing 3 (slatted and '6-3') meant that the ammunition door/step was changed (very much like on the slat/6-3 F-86s), with the wing fillet part of the door on slatted wings and a separate piece on 6-3: Another lesser item: on the RH/stbd wing, inboard there was a gun camera, which was deleted on 6-3-wing FJ-3s. The window for the camera is Item 9 below: And a photo of the camera window: Finally a Parts Catalog image showing the F-86A-type wingtip light fitted to FJ-3/3M: I'll get on to drop tanks, IFR etc next. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngstROM Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Sabrejet, this is marvellous! Many, many thanks for taking time to post all this information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 8:04 PM, AngstROM said: Jonners feels your pain! Actually Jonners feels pretty happy- 'cus I can now build another FJ-3 without all that Malarky the first time round I have a few small reservations about the CAD pics, but will hold my tongue until we see more details, especially as I believe Tommy Thomason is involved - so hopefully all will be well! Jonners - looking forward to adding more of the prettiest of the "Sabres" to his collection, and hoping some kind soul will do a 48th F-86H too! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) To finish off the wing bits. Again any photos are US Navy Official or NMNA. All FJ-3s were able to be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe, installed on the LH/port wing, just inboard of the wing tank pylon. The probe was not always fitted. All FJ-3s had pylons for carriage of 200-gallon drop tanks. Pylons were just inboard of the wing fold at BL 78.25. Note the rarely visible sway brace inboard (Items 34 thru 40 on Figure 43 and highlighted in photo) FJ-3 BuNo 136118 and subsequent had a second wing pylon, inboard of the drop tank pylon at BL 40.24 and these aircraft could carry Sidewinder AAM’s (Sidewinder-equipped aircraft were later designated FJ-3M from NAA model NA-215). The Sidewinder pylon fit comprised a MOD-D2 Missile Launcher (Item 1 in Figure 303 below), a MOD-3 Pylon(Item 2), and a Beam Assembly, 500-lb (Item 9). Finally a couple of configurations which were available, but I'm not sure were ever used: 1. Outboard pylons could be configured for “External Stores Package” (BuNo 136118 onwards): 2. All four pylons (applicable aircraft) could be configured to carry 500-lb bombs, with each station (inbd/outbd) having slightly different fwd & aft pylon fairings. (BuNo 136118 onwards) - outboard at top, inboard pylon at bottom: More in a bit, but that covers the wing - apart from the wing fold that is! Edited June 2, 2017 by Sabrejet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngstROM Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said: ...and hoping some kind soul will do a 48th F-86H too! Indeed! Always thought Special Hobby might scale up their amusing 1/72 effort, but I may never live to see that happen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Fuselage, starting from the back: Early FJ-3s had a plain, smooth-skinned rudder up to BuNo 139229: (photo Howard Levy) A Splitter Rudder (this is the official Navy/NAA term) with visible ribbed skin was introduced from BuNo 139230 onwards. The Splitter Rudder was retrofitted onto earlier aircraft. NOTE: I have read that the elevator was similarly modified but can find no documentary or photographic evidence of this. (photo JMG Gradidge) All FJ-3s had facility to tow aerial targets and a single pickup/hook/release was located on the aft fuselage, aft of the tail bumper, and on the RH/starboard side. Highlighted in the following photo (US Navy official), which also nicely demonstrates the wing leading edge camber of 6-3-winged FJ-3s. A close-up of the tow target hook (photo courtesy Mark Nankivil), and also good detail of the tail bumper: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 10 hours ago, AngstROM said: Indeed! Always thought Special Hobby might scale up their amusing 1/72 effort, but I may never live to see that happen. Might do an F-86H detail rundown when I get a chance. The 'H' (Last of the Sport Models) is one of my favourite versions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Superb reference info again Sabrejet, I just hope that Kitty Hawk will take on this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Sabrejet said: NOTE: I have read that the elevator was similarly modified but can find no documentary or photographic evidence of this. Typically, I have found a couple of photos showing the Splitter Elevator, but only on very late-service Navy Reserve a/c. I can't find it on any frontline Navy FJ-3 or 3M and suspect it was a late (circa 1960 or later?) modification. I'll do a bit more digging and get back on that one. For now I'd say that for the vast majority of FJ-3 models, the correct combination is either smooth rudder/smooth elevator or Splitter Rudder/smooth elevator. Unless you are doing a Navy Reserve FJ-3/F-1C then you won't have the Splitter Elevator. It also was not installed in production, so even the final production FJ-3M had the smooth elevator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Sabrejet - have you seen these 3 galleries? http://www.logbookmag.com/gallery.asp?CatID=37 Also http://www.net-maquettes.com/pictures/north-american-fj-3-fury-walk/ shows the splitter elevator - but this is the presevered airframe at Chino - so whether it was ever used by VF-37.... Cheers Jonners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyK Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, 71chally said: Superb reference info again Sabrejet, I just hope that Kitty Hawk will take on this information. My thoughts exactly, on both counts. J 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Good stuff. Some complementary information: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2011/04/fj23-fury-redux.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said: Sabrejet - have you seen these 3 galleries? http://www.logbookmag.com/gallery.asp?CatID=37 Also http://www.net-maquettes.com/pictures/north-american-fj-3-fury-walk/ shows the splitter elevator - but this is the presevered airframe at Chino - so whether it was ever used by VF-37.... Cheers Jonners Jonners, No I hadn't - but beware of preserved aircraft in terms of configuration and colours: The PoF Fury wears a spurious identity and a colour scheme never worn by that specific airframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Here is what I have on the Splitter Elevator (I have looked at Steve Ginter's FJ-3 book also - and it seems to agree with the summation I made above regarding it being a late modification. I've known Steve for a long time and recommend his book by the way). Here are three in-service tails, including a very late model FJ-3M (BuNo 141395) - all wearing the Splitter Rudder but not the elevator (Photos via Gradidge, Tailhook Assoc and NMNA): And here three withdrawn from service/preserved tails, with the VMF-333 a/c BuNo 135883 struck off Navy charge pre-1960 (Splitter Rudder/smooth elevator) and the two preserved examples being (middle - Spiltter Rudder/smooth elevator) BuNo 141393 of Sabre Society of NC, which was struck off charge on 16th October 1963 and the above-mentioned Planes of Fame example, which is actually BuNo 135867 but painted as "141435" in spurious VF-73 colours. This machine was struck off charge on 12th February 1964. So in summary, I'd first suggest that you check photographic references if modelling a particular aircraft and secondly I would strongly suggest that unless you are doing a Reserve aircraft from post-circa 1960 it will not have the Splitter Elevator. Forgot to add that, as seen on BuNo 141393 of Sabre Society (struck off charge on 16th October 1963), not even all the aircraft in service at that late date had the Splitter Elevator. Edited June 3, 2017 by Sabrejet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Turning to the underside, there were (aside from the arrestor hook, which I will cover later), four notable items: (1) - Barrier Pickup Tube, (2) - Catapult Hook, (3) - Catapult Holdback Pendant, and (4) - Tail Bumper (see below annotated USN Official photo): The Barrier Pickup Tube was designed to extend when required, to provide better barrier engagement in the event of a barrier-arrested landing. It was red/white striped in the same way as the arrestor hook (photos JMG Gradidge, USN Official and Tailhook Assoc): The Catapult Hook was a fixed item, attached to the Centre Wing Box and on early aircraft in a tapered fairing; but on most/later FJ-3s, housed in a parallel-sided fairing as per the annotated photo above. See following photos (courtesy Tailhook Assoc), with tapered version first and parallel-sided version following. The Catapult Holdback Pendant is rarely-seen, but when required, was used to hold back the aircraft against the catapult force until a pre-determined load, at which time a frangible portion of the Holdback Cable (attached to the aircraft carrier deck) would break, allowing the aircraft to surge forward with more impulse than if the catapult had just been fired alone. The Holdback Cable was attached to Item 17 in the second illustration below, and the Holdback Pendant, hinged at it forward end, was sprung-loaded towards the shut position. When the Holdback Cable broke, there would be a small part of the frangible portion retained in the Holdback Pendant, which had automatically sprung shut. Upon landing it would be opened by a deckhand, who would remove the frangible part and repeat the operation. The Holdback Pendant is never easy to see, but I have highlighted it (red dotted line) in the below photo (photo Mark Nankivil): And here an idea of how the Catapult Hook and Holdback Pendant worked in service: And finally, a quick illustration of the Tail Bumper: Edited June 3, 2017 by Sabrejet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 A few more bits from the aft fuselage, starting with the arrestor hook and associated doors: And the speed brakes: Also a few odds and ends of associated Ground Equipment. Photos are via Tailhook Assoc/NMNA. Firstly the wing stays: And a dedicated aft-towing arm: And finally an adaptor assembly for use with a standard engine change trolley: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Good stuff again. Some minor notes. The Davis Barrier pickup was necessary when landing on straight-deck carriers. It extended (along with a barrier activator/guard ahead of the windscreen) when the hook was lowered. It was removed during the transition to straight deck carriers since it wasn't necessary in the event of a barricade engagement and there were no barriers on the angle deck carriers. For more and other links on the same subject, see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2010/12/davis-barrier-one-more-time.html I'm surprised to see the catapult holdback fitting identified as a pendant. That term for nautical applications is more generally associated with a cable than a piece of hardware The cable that ran back to the deck might technically be referred to as a pendant, as would the catapult cable in this instance (a bridle would hook up to two hooks on the aircraft and loop around the catapult shoe) and the arresting cable itself ("cross-deck pendant"). Also see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2011/01/catapult-innovations.html The holdback link (it looks like a dumbbell) is restraining the airplane at full throttle and the catapult "in tension". I'm pretty sure that if the engine was at idle, firing the catapult would launch the airplane; that's why when the catapult officer signals to suspend the launch, the pilot doesn't throttle back until he moves in front of the airplane to make it obvious that the catapult isn't to be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) For what it's worth, I think I've only seen one picture of a gray/white Fury with the barrier pickup extended. For more on the straight-deck hardware, see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2009/09/when-rube-goldberg-isnt-enough.html Edited June 3, 2017 by Tailspin Turtle mistakenly used quote instead of link function Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Some great pieces of information. Hopefully this will be implemented on the KittyHawk kit and persuade another company to do a 1/72 version even though SH announced one a good few years ago and no progress had been made. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngstROM Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 This thread just gets better and better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said: Good stuff again. Some minor notes. The Davis Barrier pickup was necessary when landing on straight-deck carriers. It extended (along with a barrier activator/guard ahead of the windscreen) when the hook was lowered. It was removed during the transition to straight deck carriers since it wasn't necessary in the event of a barricade engagement and there were no barriers on the angle deck carriers. For more and other links on the same subject, see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2010/12/davis-barrier-one-more-time.html I'm surprised to see the catapult holdback fitting identified as a pendant. That term for nautical applications is more generally associated with a cable than a piece of hardware The cable that ran back to the deck might technically be referred to as a pendant, as would the catapult cable in this instance (a bridle would hook up to two hooks on the aircraft and loop around the catapult shoe) and the arresting cable itself ("cross-deck pendant"). Also see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2011/01/catapult-innovations.html The holdback link (it looks like a dumbbell) is restraining the airplane at full throttle and the catapult "in tension". I'm pretty sure that if the engine was at idle, firing the catapult would launch the airplane; that's why when the catapult officer signals to suspend the launch, the pilot doesn't throttle back until he moves in front of the airplane to make it obvious that the catapult isn't to be fired. Tailspin: many thanks. I'll go through the effectivity of the barrier guard in a later post. These FJ-3s are interesting from the point of view of configurations and new or deleted features. Not sure why the use of 'pendant' for the hold-back device but I suspect that they were running out of nomenclature! I have a schematic which I'll post some time, which maybe uses a different term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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