Airfix Gladiator to Sea Gladiator Conversion

[CamberrySauce]

Hi all,

I am looking to build one of the three sea gladiators that was involved with the defence of Malta, I have looked at multiple reference photos and they have three bladed props rather than the two bladed prop seen in the Airfix kit. They also have arrestor hooks but I am not sure these were present of the Malta gladiators, If I can get any info on a conversion set or something similar that would be greatly appreciated.

-Cam 

[dogsbody]

Were they three-bladed, fixed pitch Fairey-Reid metal props or three-bladed Hamilton-de Havilland props? Somewhere I have read that at least one Malta Gladiator was fitted with an H-D Blenheim prop with shortened blades.

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207926

 

If you can get this Airfix kit, it comes with a Fairey-Reid three-blader:

 

http://www.scalemodellingnow.com/hnaircraftkits-airfix-gloster-j8agladiator

 

 

Chris

[beppe]

 I think the dinghy and the arrestor hook were removed

[CamberrySauce]

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

Were they three-bladed, fixed pitch Fairey-Reid metal props or three-bladed Hamilton-de Havilland props? Somewhere I have read that at least one Malta Gladiator was fitted with an H-D Blenheim prop with shortened blades.

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207926

 

If you can get this Airfix kit, it comes with a Fairey-Reid three-blader:

 

http://www.scalemodellingnow.com/hnaircraftkits-airfix-gloster-j8agladiator

 

 

Chris

I cannot for the life of me find that gladiator kit, I've only have been able to find the dogfight doubles kit with the stuka and the starter set so I wonder if there might be a resin engine kit that comes with a prop?

 

28 minutes ago, beppe said:

 I think the dinghy and the arrestor hook were removed

Thanks for the helpful info! 

[stevehnz]

If you can find one this set comes with the 3 bladed fairey reed prop & decals for one or more of the Malta Gladiators. This shop is showing it in stock, I've dealt with him before, he'll send a paypal invoice with post to NZ but it would pay to email him first to get details of that, post from the US can be a bit spendy.

Steve.

[Bpasenelli]

Wasn't there a recess in the fuselage that the hook fit into. That was my impression. My kit (New Airfix)  is packed up but I seem to remember a three bladed prop. I believe that Blackbird models made a dinghy and arrestor hook.

[dogsbody]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

If you can find one this set comes with the 3 bladed fairey reed prop & decals for one or more of the Malta Gladiators. This shop is showing it in stock, I've dealt with him before, he'll send a paypal invoice with post to NZ but it would pay to email him first to get details of that, post from the US can be a bit spendy.

Steve.

 

You beat me to it. I just found that online.

 

 

Chris

[tonyot]

When they first began flying over Malta some had the fixed pitch fairey reed 3 bladed prop and some the two bladed Watts prop. The arrester hook and dinghy pack were removed although the recess below the fuselag remained for the hook,.....and armour plating was added behind the pilots, having been made in the Malta Dockyard.

Later the engines were tweaked and 3 bladed constant speed propellers were fitted (ie Blenheim props) to give them a better climb performance. A couple even had guns fitted under the upper wings but they were soon destroyed by bombing.

Note that in the later pics with the `Blenheim' propeller fitted that the camouflage has also changed, being extended down the side of the fuselage bust still retaining the black lower left wing and white lower right wing with the lower fuselage half black/white. Underside of the upper wing was Sky Grey, as were the fuselage sides on the early aircraft.

 

You can see the Armour Plating here on the surviving aircraft;

 

Hope this helps,

                         Tony

Edited May 3, 2017 by tonyot

[charlie_c67]

Any idea what shape the recess was? Sounds like it might be a little complicated to replicate.... 

[tonyot]

Here are some pics that I took of `Faith' the last time that I was in Malta which may help;

Underside looking forward showing the hook attachment points;

Underside looking towards the front from the rear part of the hook recess, note the triangular mounting frames with a hole in it, which can be seen in the side views;

and here is the armour plating again showing the rear mounting;

 

Cheers

           Tony

Edited May 4, 2017 by tonyot

[Possibly Apocryphal]

Any idea why the dinghy was removed?  Just weight? The tailhook, I understand, but for an aircraft operating from a small island, I would have thought the chances of ditching in the sea would have been a good reason to keep the dinghy installed.

[Work In Progress]

I agree it must have been a trade-off that involved am amount of soul-searching, but it was a desperate situation. The real advantage a dinghy gives you over a lifejacket is about survival time in low sea temperatures, because the dinghy physically gets you out of the water whereas the lifejacket simply keeps you afloat and head-up. I imagine the calculation was that since the Gladiators were normally operating close to the island, within reach of rescue boats, and with the heyday of the Gladiators being in the summer of 1940 in Mediterranean seas that would have been much warmer than the Channel or North Sea, that it was acceptable to lose the weight of the dinghy on performance grounds. They did need every scrap of aircraft performance to intercept the bombers.

[Possibly Apocryphal]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

I agree it must have been a trade-off that involved am amount of soul-searching, but it was a desperate situation. The real advantage a dinghy gives you over a lifejacket is about survival time in low sea temperatures, because the dinghy physically gets you out of the water whereas the lifejacket simply keeps you afloat and head-up. I imagine the calculation was that since the Gladiators were normally operating close to the island, within reach of rescue boats, and with the heyday of the Gladiators being in the summer of 1940 in Mediterranean seas that would have been much warmer than the Channel or North Sea, that it was acceptable to lose the weight of the dinghy on performance grounds. They did need every scrap of aircraft performance to intercept the bombers.

That makes plenty of sense.

[guitarpete247]

Reading this article. https://scarfandgoggles.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/gladiator-survivors-3-what-hope-for-faith/ 

What is in the Malta War Museum is a hastily botched up airframe taken from a dump in a quarry near the airfield the Gladiators flew from. The fact it has a 2 blade prop is not reliable nor is that the arrestor hook is not fitted. It could have been fitted when flying.

Here is model from the Malta Air Museum. I wish I'd been there last summer. We went into the war museum but didn't get time to go out to the Air Museum.

[GordonM]

Yes ago as a child I read 'Faith, Hope and Charity' by Kenneth Poolman, first published by William Kimber in 1954 - so written at time when details were fresh. I've not read it for years, however I do recall in it he states the aircraft were stripped of anything unnecessary to gain speed and therefore height. The book also talks about on Gladiator being given extra machine guns on the upper wing, Poolman describes it as looking like a WWI relic sat on the airfield, he also states it was known locally as the 'Bloodiator' During the darkest days of Malta's defence ground crews reportedly fitted Blenheim engines as replacements, both to keep the Gladiators flying, but also to give as much performance as possible(?) I'm sure I read somewhere that at least one aircraft had a Blenheim cowling to go with its new engine, but as I stated it's a while since I read the book!

[Seahawk]

Though Poolman wasn't (AFAIK) there and these books straight in the immediate aftermath of the war are sometimes coloured with wartime propaganda and/or rumour.  I've read a book by someone who was there (I think it is MG Comeau's Operation Mercury) who says one Gladiator was fitted with extra machine guns under the upper wing but that it never flew in that mode: destroyed in a strafing attack almost immediately it was rolled out.

 

Away from references at the mo but will track down chapter and verse later next week.

[Graham Boak]

The version I've seen about the additional guns under the upper wing (a standard FAA option but not otherwise used, AFAIK) had it called the Bleriator.   From Bleriot.  I don't think it s in Comeau's book, but it is a while since I read it.  I have seen it linked to a given serial and the name Charity, but if the name that would suggest a late date, and the serial belonged to an aircraft shot down fairly early - confusion in the ranks there.

 

Given that the Blenheim and Gladiator both had the same Bristol Mercury engine, it may well have been the same cowling anyway.  It only had to come up the road a few miles - an early version of the power egg?

 

Poolman wrote a number of books that were great reading in my youth - HMS Illustrious comes to mind.  Although fairly well researched they were colourful rather than fully historical, but more coloured by the attitudes of the times than invented.  Nowadays you'd be better served by Christopher Shores Malta: The Hurricane years or our own Tony O'Toole's  Air War over Malta: No Place for Beginners.  The latter is better for modellers.

 

 

[GrzeM]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

had it called the Bleriator.   From Bleriot. 

Not just from BLEnheim+gladIATOR?

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, GrzeM said:

Not just from BLEnheim+gladIATOR?

This is what I also read about the origin of the name.

The trick was that Blenheim Mercury engines were fitted with variable pitch propellers (visible in some pictures and also on the Malta model of N5519 above), whereas the standard three-bladed Gladiator prop was fixed pitch.

Fitting Gladiators with Blenheim engines AND variable pitch propellers gave them a performance boost.

The six-gun option was standard on FAA Sea Gladiators (not on interim Sea Gladiators, I believe), though never used AFAIK. It seems surprising that it found dangerous when tested: if it was an option, it should have been cleared during Sea Gladiator armament trials in 1939.

Reportedly, the six-gun Bleariator was N5531.

 

Claudio

[johnd]

9 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

The trick was that Blenheim Mercury engines were fitted with variable pitch propellers ... whereas the standard three-bladed Gladiator prop was fixed pitch.

I was just about to say the same. I also seem to remember that the Mercury engines fitted to Blenheims could handle  higher octane fuel. Some 100 octane petrol was available on Malta, I believe.

 

John.

[guitarpete247]

This looks like more photo's of the model in the Malta Air Museum.

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=1408

[GrzeM]

12 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

The six-gun option was standard on FAA Sea Gladiators (not on interim Sea Gladiators, I believe), though never used AFAIK. It seems surprising that it found dangerous when tested: if it was an option, it should have been cleared during Sea Gladiator armament trials in 1939.

Quite similar situation was with other Mercury-engined fighter, Polish PZL P.11c. It had standard armament of the 4 mgs (two in fuselage and two in wings) but the wing guns were installed very rarely - their weight (including the ammo) badly influenced the general performance (especially roll and turn rate) so the pilots prefered to be underarmed, but agile. Agility was the only advantage of these rather obsolete fighters. Maybe the same was with Gladiators?

Edited September 28, 2017 by GrzeM

[72modeler]

6 hours ago, guitarpete247 said:

This looks like more photo's of the model in the Malta Air Museum.

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=1408

Wow- impressive model! They even got the oil coolers correct for a Blenheim-powered Sea Gladiator,  as IIRC Blenheims had the intake trumpets for the coolers on either side of the crankcase and Bolinbrokes had them both on the same side, one above the other. I bet Graham will know, for sure, if he sees this.

Mike

[dogsbody]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Wow- impressive model! They even got the oil coolers correct for a Blenheim-powered Sea Gladiator,  as IIRC Blenheims had the intake trumpets for the coolers on either side of the crankcase and Bolinbrokes had them both on the same side, one above the other. I bet Graham will know, for sure, if he sees this.

Mike

 

Blenheims had the oil cooler intakes on the same side of the gear casing.

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208837

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259261

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207910

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207918

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208707

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208673

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, dogsbody said:

 

Blenheims had the oil cooler intakes on the same side of the gear casing.

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208837

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259261

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207910

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207918

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208707

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208673

 

 

 

Chris

I think I screwed up, Chris- it appears it is the Mercury engine installation on the Lysander that has the oil cooler trumpet intakes on either side of the crankcase, and the Blenheim/Bolinbroke Mercury engines have them stacked vertically alongside the crankcase. I apologize for misinforming my fellow modelers and I  thank you foe setting the record straight. (I will now fashion a dagger from sprue and thrust myself upon it!)

Mike

 

BTW- great photos! Thanks for sharing them!

Edited September 28, 2017 by 72modeler
added text