Ju88 to ju388 conversion

[Colin @ Freightdog Models]

The Aardvark/Heritage conversion masters are now with Alec of Alley Cat, so if you hang on for a bit it will be re-released to a better standard if you want to convert the Dragon kits rather than the new ICM one.

 

Colin   

[Lawzer]

The conversion is now available...

 

http://www.aimsmodels.co.uk/Coming-Soon/coming-soon.html

 

Sadly I don't have the cash to buy one now but I'd be very interested if anyone does to see what it's like?

[Mainly28s]

On 30/05/2017 at 11:06 AM, Lawzer said:

The conversion is now available...

 

http://www.aimsmodels.co.uk/Coming-Soon/coming-soon.html

 

Sadly I don't have the cash to buy one now but I'd be very interested if anyone does to see what it's like?

 

I'm very tempted, but I'd like to know what's in the set before I splurge!

A Parts list would be great.

[Mainly28s]

OK, so I went ahead and splurged- I got an old Dragon Ju88 C as a donor kit for various bits (as recommended), and then ordered the 1/48th Ju 388 from AIMS.

Once it shows up, I'll add some pictures.

[ben_m]

A build of the resin 1/48 Planet Models Ju 388 http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=169471&page=1

[tank152]

Review of the Aims conversion here.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2017/reviews/accessories/aimsju388l1conversion48reviewbg_1.htm

 

[Aeon]

On 7/7/2017 at 11:09 AM, tank152 said:

Review of the Aims conversion here.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2017/reviews/accessories/aimsju388l1conversion48reviewbg_1.htm

 

Now those are good news for my Ju-88C.

[Mottlemaster]

Have orderd one from John yesterday . I will probably get on and build it sometime this year .

[Mainly28s]

I received a well-packed parcel from Hungary yesterday- a beautifully packaged set of resin, PE and vacform bits, with a CD. I'll post pictures over the weekend.

[JWM]

I dig out this thread instead of starting new, but I am not sure if it is the best option for being read...

Hi, @Lawzer, @Mainly28s  - are  your models on RFI perhaps?

How Ju-388 were painted? The 1/72 Special Hobby kit has in instruction RLM 81/76. In one book I found the same in another RLM 82/76!  On same constructed models I can see two tone (RLM81/82) splinter scheme. The aftermarket decals sets shows a green (or two tone) - but RLM81 is braunviolet, not green at all... 

The machine from Silver Hills, although very dusty seem to me as I see it on photos with a greenish top, so rather 82 or two tones, becaus I never seen the wings or even whole fuselage on photos.

Any thought on that? Please , I am now right about to paint my SH model ( I purchased few weeks ago  from SH a brand new - not yellowish -  canopy set!) 

Regards

J-W

 

[Graham Boak]

Excuse me coming in here with is at least partly a diversion, but some decades back there was a display at the RAF Museum of the original WW2 colour records of a well-known British specialist, unfortunately I cannot bring his name to mind - Rupert Payne?  Probably not Payne.  What is relevant that he described the Ju388 in some detail.  This particular detail was included in a review of the exhibition in a leading British modelling magazine - my memory says Scale Models but despite searching more than once I have been unable to find it!  Perhaps another one of our older modellers can bring this to light: it would certain answer your question in terms of the colours present though not their RLM numbers.  I feel sure (incautious words) that one of these was a dark green.  It certainly was not describing the usual Junkers paint scheme of 70/71.

 

There are those nowadays who would argue that 81 was intended to be a dark olive green but in practice appeared in two different variations, one a distinct brown and the other a distinct green.  So 81/82, which was the recommended colours scheme at the time, could well appear as two greens in practice.  Otherwise this could be described as 82/83, which is probably the most helpful in terms of model paints.

[SafetyDad]

I suspect that the colours used for the Ju388 varied with the variant of the aircraft.

 

Prototypes seem to have been finished in two greens and blue - Graham's post above ably makes the point that using RLM numbers without a descriptor doesn't really help with these late war uppersurface colours as so much variation in colour seems to have existed within a given RLM numerical designator.  So here I might suggest 81 Dark Green with 82 Light Green for these early airframes (although RLM70/71/65 remains possible).

 

The majority of Ju388s manufactured were L-1 reconnaissance versions - these include Wk Nr 560 049 that was captured and eventually made its way to Silver Hill in the USA. Some of the best photos of Ju388s were taken at Leipzig Mockau, sadly after the airframes were set alight. Nevertheless, some useful information can be gleaned from these pictures

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Photos from online sources in the public domain)

 

These aircraft seem to me to mostly have a single uppersurface colour (although the tailplane at bottom left visible in the last picture seems to be two-tone splinter).  Green or grey? It's not easy to be sure - personally I favour RLM75 Grauviolett but that's just my take as the RAF adopted a similar scheme for their PRU aircraft performing a similar role. Other sources favour this uppersurface colour as a dark green.

 

Check out Christoph Vernaleken's website at www.Ju388.de for much more, including the history of the NASMs Ju388. 

 

HTH

 

SD

[JWM]

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

Green or grey? It's not easy to be sure - personally I favour RLM75 Grauviolett but that's just my take as the RAF adopted a similar scheme for their PRU aircraft performing a similar role. Other sources favour this uppersurface colour as a dark green.

Many thanks!, I never saw those photos before! For sure the color from top is very light, the RLM 75 could be logical but the available photos of machine is a storage of Silver Hills looks for me a bit greenish https://live.staticflickr.com/182/400080423_4353120abb_b.jpg

On that photo it looks like having remains of blotches https://www.ju388.de/Ju388/Aussen_neu.jpg and two tones on top of fuselage but this could be a result of the way how the paint is ageing. 

I think I will go with a light green like here http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/08/junkers-ju388-in-148th-scale.html

Regards

J-W

[Paul Lucas]

21 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Excuse me coming in here with is at least partly a diversion, but some decades back there was a display at the RAF Museum of the original WW2 colour records of a well-known British specialist, unfortunately I cannot bring his name to mind - Rupert Payne?  Probably not Payne.  What is relevant that he described the Ju388 in some detail. 

'Scale Models' March 1975, page 117, has a short piece entitled 'C Rupert Moore British Military Aircraft Colouring 1879-1962'. It described an exhibition held at the IWM in January 1975. It does not mention Ju.388s at all. So perhaps there is another article somewhere?

 

@SafetyDad posted while I was typing, so what now follows will perhaps only serve to muddy the waters still further.

 

The Ju.388 the CR Moore was perhaps most likely to have had access to would have been the prototype K-1, W.Nr 500006 coded 'PE+IF' that was flown to Britain for evaluation in September 1945 . Photographs show that this aircraft had a two tone splinter scheme on the upper surfaces with a demarcation line between the upper and under surface colours low down on the side of the fuselage that was possibly Farbton 70/71/65 as for the Ju.188. 

 

According to Michael Ullmann, it could have been 70/71/76 or 70/82/76.

 

In contrast, the Ju.388L W.Nr560049 that found its way to Silver Hill has a high demarcation between the upper and under surface camouflage colours.

 

I had always assumed that the Ju.388Ls only had one colour on the upper surfaces until SafetyDad pointed out what appears to be a splinter pattern on the tail plane in the photo above. 

 

This looks as though it is in the right place for such a demarcation when compared with the Junkers camouflage scheme drawing for the Ju.188. The darker outboard colour should also cover the whole of the upper surface of the elevator as well. On the Junkers drawing for the Ju.188 this segment of colour was  specified as being Farbton 70.

 

I think that I remember seeing a claim somewhere that Junkers held such a large stock of Farbtons 70 and 71 that they continued to use these colours until the end of the war, but the Ju.388s in SaftyDad's photos look too light in tone for this colour combination. Farbton 75 is possible for one of the upper surface colours because Junkers would have held stocks of this colour for Night Fighter production, so this leaves the other colour.

 

In view of the Ju.388s High Altitude Reconnaissance role, might the other colour be Farbton 77? This was very similar to the RAF colour Medium Sea Grey that was used by RAF High Flying Day Fighters during the war.

Could Farbton 77 have been used as a single colour at some point before being replaced by either Farbton 81 or Farbton 82?

 

The colour illustration of a Ju.388L in Michael Ullmann's book suggests Farbton 81 on the upper surfaces and Farbton 76 on the under surfaces based on photographic evidence alone. He states that the Aircraft Handbook for the Ju.388, dated 25 January 1945, makes no mention of the camouflage finish.

 

Are there no 'modern' colour photos of the Silver Hill Ju.388 that would at least tell us whether it is grey, green or something else on the upper surfaces?

 

Regards,

Paul.

 

Even as I pressed 'post', a notification appeared that @JWM had replied along with links to two modern photos. If you magnify the photo taken from the right hand side and look closely, you can see what appears to be the demarcation between two different colours just forward of the wing trailing edge. This appears to be in roughly the correct place for a segment of Farbton 71 as shown on the Ju.188 diagram.

 

Second edit.

I have just been back for another look at the modern photos. The two colours on the upper surface look as though they could be Farbtons 70 and 71. Might the 'light green' visible in the left hand photo be a primer, Farbton 99?

Under surfaces Farbton 76?

 

Third edit.

Looking again, the 'light green' in the left hand photo is in roughly the correct place for a segment of Farbton 71.

 

That's it. I'm going to leave it alone now. 

Lunch time!

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Paul Lucas

[Graham Boak]

I have been looking in the Schiffer book Junkers Ju388 by Christoph Vernaleken and Martin Handig.  (I wish I'd thought of it sooner.)  To answer the last question first, the one in US hands is painted with Green 82 on the uppersurfaces, clearly shown below the windscreen, if appearing somewhat darker elsewhere.  The UK one was the V6, the second prototype for the L-0, and like the other prototypes it appears to have been in 70/71 with a low demarcation.  It first flew in August 1944, which makes it a bit early for the later colours, and the general appearance is consistent with other prototypes.  Unfortunately this work is less helpful on the production colour schemes, other than stating that one example with a mid-fuselage demarcation was unusual, the vast majority having a high.  There may yet be more helpful snippets buried in later text, but (sadly for us) the colours of the aircraft do not seem to have been a priority for the writers.

 

Thanks Paul, if not providing quite what I was hoping for.  It was the combination of a reliable commentator and an early reference to late-war colours that had linked the two items in my mind.  However it seems that it may not have been late war colours anyway, in this case.

 

EDIT.  In contradiction to the above, the book does contain a colour photo of the US example showing two greens on the uppersurface of the fuselage.  The caption states this is the original colour scheme of 82/83 with 76 undersides which have been oversprayed with a light gray.  There are also two rows of small mottled green dots just under the demarcation line.  These seem to match the colour above.

[tempestfan]

@JWM Jerzy, IIRC the very first issue of Jet&Prop had a set of scale drawings by Michael Merker - not d sure if accompanied by an article. Do you know that one?

[JWM]

1 hour ago, Paul Lucas said:

the demarcation between two different colours just forward of the wing trailing edge.

Many thanks! I've see that earlier, but I thought that  it can be a difference in ageing because on old photos I have not seen it, like here https://live.staticflickr.com/8162/7585485986_654f6c0956_b.jpg

 

but now (suggestion or autosuggestion???) I can see it https://www.ju388.de/Ju388/560049_USKZ_1.jpg

 

1 minute ago, tempestfan said:

@JWM Jerzy, IIRC the very first issue of Jet&Prop had a set of scale drawings by Michael Merker - not d sure if accompanied by an article. Do you know that one?

Thnaks, I do not kow it  - I have a Polish monograph book on 188/388 by E. Michulec (https://allegro.pl/oferta/r-michulec-34-ju-188-ju-388-cz-2-13246419804) 

57 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

To answer the last question first, the one in US hands is painted with Green 82 on the uppersurfaces, clearly shown below the windscreen, if appearing somewhat darker elsewhere. 

 

Many thanks for that. At least this is a good reference!

 

One more observation - on photos from Leipzig as well as on that from museum no blisters/fairing on top of fuselage behind the canopy, so characteristic for whole Ju88 family (I am not sure what they were for). On drawings the blisters are shown, apparently wrong...

Regards

J-W

 

[Graham Boak]

One more general supposition.  These are high altitude aircraft, so the top surface colours are of lesser importance.  Their main value would have been for ground cover, so a green would be more acceptable than a grey.  This would seem to be demonstrated by the US example.

[Graham Boak]

In another more thorough look through V&H, I found the following.  I have corrected my previous posting, but include the new text here.

 

The book does contain a colour photo of the US example showing two greens on the uppersurface of the fuselage.  The caption states this is the original colour scheme of 82/83 with 76 undersides which have been oversprayed with a light gray.  There are also two rows of small mottled green dots just under the demarcation line.  These seem to match the colour above.

[SafetyDad]

I think the evidence from the NASM machine, plus the concealment argument, probably tilt the balance in favour of the uppersurfaces being green. 

 

This is the best colour picture that I can find of the machine in the USA

 

 

Certainly looks like dark green to me - so RLM81 Dark green? Or even one of the older greens? Probably not, as it doesn't seem quite dark enough.

 

HTH

 

SD

[Graham Boak]

RLM81 is (arguably) not dark green but a reddish brown.  Some people think the both are variants of a colour intended to be an olive green, but if you are relying on model paint nomenclature then dark green 83 is likely to be more helpful - and quite likely right anyway.  If your favourite paint manufacturer has a dark green 81 in its line, fine.

 

Great picture.

[Paul Lucas]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

In another more thorough look through V&H, I found the following.  I have corrected my previous posting, but include the new text here.

 

The book does contain a colour photo of the US example showing two greens on the uppersurface of the fuselage.  The caption states this is the original colour scheme of 82/83 with 76 undersides which have been oversprayed with a light gray.  There are also two rows of small mottled green dots just under the demarcation line.  These seem to match the colour above.

In the light of our current state of knowledge it seems unlikely that Farbton 83 (a dark blue) was present.

 

I found the reference to Junkers having large stocks of Farbtons 70 and 71. It was right under my nose. The Ju.188 drawing that I was looking at appears on page 189 of Michael Ullmann's book, and the reference to Farbtons 81 and 82 not being required for the Ju.188 because "large quantities of paint are still available in the old shades (70 and 71)." is on the facing page 188.

 

Whether these stocks would have lasted long enough to be applied to the Ju.388 I don't know. On my screen, the 'light green' looks a little bit too light to be Farbton 71. I wonder if we are actually looking at a Farbton 70/82 combination as authorised by RLM Sammelmitteilung 1 of July 1944 .

 

I don't have the Shiffer book, but assuming that the Ju.388 was camouflaged to the same pattern as the Ju.188, there would have been some parts of the airframe where only one colour would have been applied. The upper surfaces of both engine cowlings would have been only either Farbton 71 or 82 as would the upper surfaces of both flaps. If the authors of the Schiffer book were only able to clearly see or get at the engine cowlings, they might have come away with the impression that the whole aircraft was Farbton 82 on the upper surfaces.

 

I had wondered whether the sides of the fuselage had a light grey mottle or whether it was an ageing paint finish... and @SafetyDadhas just posted that lovely contemporary colour photo while I was typing this. Now I don't know what to think...

 

We can be reasonably certain that the prop is Farbton 70, so the question now is how we perceive the colour that covers the part of the engine nacelle that has the exhaust projecting up out of it immediately behind the leading edge of the wing. The prominent panel line that features a slight downturn into it marks the demarcation line between Farbton 70 (aft) and 71 (forward) of the leading edge of the wing on the Ju.188 drawing. Does the little triangular fairing that we can see with the exhaust sticking up out of it look as dark as the prop and if it does, is this because it is dark green paint or light green paint stained and darkened by the exhaust?

 

As I mentioned above, the whole of the engine cowling ahead of the wing leading edge is a single colour. Are we looking at Farbton 71 or Farbton 82?

[SafetyDad]

58 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

RLM81 is (arguably) not dark green but a reddish brown.  Some people think the both are variants of a colour intended to be an olive green, but if you are relying on model paint nomenclature then dark green 83 is likely to be more helpful - and quite likely right anyway.  If your favourite paint manufacturer has a dark green 81 in its line, fine.

 

Great picture.

 

Thanks Graham. To a great extent I agree with you, but I'm sticking with my original caption. I completely understand the difficulties and lack of consensus around RLM81, 82 and 83. The only late war uppersurface colour I'm confident about linking to a specific RLM number is, as you say, RML81 Braunviolett. The real fly in the ointment here is the fairly recently unearthed documentary evidence describing RLM83 as blue, not green. I appreciate that not everyone accepts the evidence for 83 being blue, but it's cited by Ullmann so I tend to go with it. 

 

That then leaves us with three distinct colours, namely Braunviolett, light green and dark green to somehow be assigned to only two RLM paint numbers - namely 81 and 82.  I quite agree that 81 can't really be both brown and green, any more than 82 could be both light and dark green. Personally I think this highlights the current incomplete understanding of late war uppersurface colours. I have a sneaking feeling that the earlier dark greens 70 and 71 were still in use by some manufacturers much later than is widely believed. That would go some way to explain this apparent contradiction.  But the current situation is a confusing mess.

 

However, whatever the RLM number, the pic shows the green upper surfaces well. And you're right, it's a good shot - quite a few taken that day have lost their colour balance over the years. In this pic the undersurfaces look cream

 

 

 

And the uppersurfaces could be taken for grey (although we know they're green). 

 

Just highlights the issues with 77 year old colour pictures 

 

SD

[SafetyDad]

Post-script

 

@Paul Lucas posted while I was typing that reply above - I hadn't seen his thoughts when I posted

 

SD

[SafetyDad]

39 minutes ago, Paul Lucas said:

As I mentioned above, the whole of the engine cowling ahead of the wing leading edge is a single colour. Are we looking at Farbton 71 or Farbton 82?

 

my vote goes for 82 - I think the green isn't dark enough for one of the older greens

 

Just my 2p

 

SD