Martian Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Take care Bill, we need you well so we can have more of your fabulous builds> Also, our thanks to Mrs Bill for looking after you. Martian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallysDad Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Hi Bill, You have gone through a rough time. Thank God for all the advances in medicine. Just take the time to get well, the body has its own tempo in doing these things, so enjoy as much as possible in the beautiful summer. I was thinking.... the F-111 was/is such a beautiful plane.... such a shame it is no longer really in service. I can imagine those big things launching from an aircraft carrier.... perhaps an aircraft carrier a bit bigger to hold all those big planes..... maybe 1400 feet? Now that would be a sight..... Take care. Randy in Newfoundland 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bendinggrass said: I can imagine those big things launching from an aircraft carrier.... perhaps an aircraft carrier a bit bigger to hold all those big planes..... maybe 1400 feet? Now that would be a sight..... Randy in Newfoundland In their campaign to discredit the F-111B, the Navy arguably misrepresented its size and weight among other things while neglecting to mention that its production was at least a year or two ahead of the availability of the Phoenix weapon system to install in it. The Navy also failed to subsequently note that the F-14 could not stay on station as long as the F-111B or land on a carrier still carrying all six Phoenixes (the F-111B could and had a lower approach speed as well). When fueled and armed for the Fleet Air Defense mission, the F-14 was not significantly lighter than the F-111B and much of the difference could be attributed to relaxed specifications and requirements and lighter Phoenix avionics. And it was not notably smaller when the F-111B's radome was folded like the A-5's. https://i.imgur.com/fxTxjJX.jpg Edited June 25, 2017 by Tailspin Turtle 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said: In their campaign to discredit the F-111B, the Navy arguably misrepresented its size and weight among other things while neglecting to mention that its production was at least a year or two ahead of the availability of the Phoenix weapon system to install in it. The Navy also failed to subsequently note that the F-14 could not stay on station as long as the F-111B or land on a carrier still carrying all six Phoenixes (the F-111B could and had a lower approach speed as well). When fueled and armed for the Fleet Air Defense mission, the F-14 was not significantly lighter than the F-111B and much of the difference could be attributed to relaxed specifications and requirements and lighter Phoenix avionics. And it was not notably smaller when the F-111B's radome was folded like the A-5's. https://i.imgur.com/fxTxjJX.jpg Excellent synopsis, Tommy. The graphic comparing the two is quite illuminating - did the dimensions of the carrier elevators lead to requirements to keep within certain boundaries? Hence the similarities. Regarding the weight, were the A-3 and A-5 heavier than either the F-111B or the F-14? I suppose it depends on mission profile and load-out. What's the heaviest USN aircraft to serve aboard a carrier? The F-14 was most likely a better dogfighter than the F-111B would/could have been, and with the Vietnam experience going on at the same time, perhaps that had some effect on the direction the USN wanted to go. Maybe? If the F-111B had entered production, I believe that it would have been a better air-to-ground aircraft than the "Bombcat" - based on the USAF experience with the F-111. I always thought the USAF versions should have had a "B" prefix all along, instead of an "F". Cheers, Bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickyrich Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 30 minutes ago, Navy Bird said: What's the heaviest USN aircraft to serve aboard a carrier? The A-3 Skywarrior holds that for the heaviest operational aircraft to operate off a carrier. Though the Marines did play around with a C-130 in the early 60's!!! That would have been interesting to see at a safe distance! Super scary from the cockpit I bet as well. I think there may even be some video on youtube. here we go.. C-130 trials on the USS Forrestal 1963 They even tried U2's! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Navy Bird said: Excellent synopsis, Tommy. The graphic comparing the two is quite illuminating - did the dimensions of the carrier elevators lead to requirements to keep within certain boundaries? Hence the similarities. Regarding the weight, were the A-3 and A-5 heavier than either the F-111B or the F-14? I suppose it depends on mission profile and load-out. What's the heaviest USN aircraft to serve aboard a carrier? The F-14 was most likely a better dogfighter than the F-111B would/could have been, and with the Vietnam experience going on at the same time, perhaps that had some effect on the direction the USN wanted to go. Maybe? If the F-111B had entered production, I believe that it would have been a better air-to-ground aircraft than the "Bombcat" - based on the USAF experience with the F-111. I always thought the USAF versions should have had a "B" prefix all along, instead of an "F". Cheers, Bill The length was most likely limited by an elevator or maneuvering on an elevator since by this time they were all located at the edge of the deck. The folded width was less constrained but needed to be minimal because of the need to cram aboard as many aircraft as possible. I'm not sure that the following numbers are directly comparable, but 94 F-14As could be accommodated on a Forrestal-class carrier according to its SAC; a spotting diagram of the F-111B I have indicates that only 85 could be parked on a unnamed super carrier leaving the angle clear for landings. However, since at most two squadrons would be aboard, 24 airplanes, (and in the case of the F-111B, only 12 since it was a one-trick pony) the actual impact was somewhat less than that difference suggests. At the risk of oversimplifying, The A-3B, RA-5C, F-111B, and F-14A all had about the same catapult-weight limit, with the RA-5C being the heaviest. (The Skywarrior reportedly holds the catapult-weight record of 84,000 lbs, but in the fleet that would have been allowed only for a war-emergency launch.) As a practical matter, the RA-5C and F-111B weighed about the same when launched for their respective missions. The F-111B had the highest maximum arresting weight, but that was because it had to bring back all six Phoenixes totaling 6,620 lbs. Take that away and it was about the same maximum arrested-landing weight as the RA-5C. Approach speed was also a weight-limiting factor: the A-3B and F-111B had stall speeds at landing gross weight of about 100 knots. The RA-5C and the F-14A, 112 knots. For more detail, see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2011/01/f-111b-versus-f-14a-one-more-time.html I agree that the Navy was better off moving to the F-14, if for no other reason than to avoid the embarrassment of having F-111Bs being delivered for at least a couple of years with no missile control systems. That's also discussed in the link given above. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Hi Bill, very much looking forward to your continuing efforts on the regular WiP. This thread has made me more interested than I ever was in this particular version -always thought of it as a mere one-off and footnote in aviation history, but of course it was more than that. Reading @Tailspin Turtle 's synopsis - I had no idea the Navy was so active in sabotaging the F-111B's chances. Must've been frustrating to have worked on the plane for so long and then seeing it cancelled. Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallysDad Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Thank you. These recent comments looking at the F-111B and comparing it to other carrier based aircraft have been fascinating. R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Well, for what it's worth, all of the photos in my posts in this thread have been moved from Photobucket to Flickr. Photobucket hasn't yet hit me with their new ransom demands, but I figured I would create a Flickr account and give it a try. Please let me know if something doesn't look right. Of course, anyone who responded to one of my posts and included any of the photos that I originally posted - well, if I end up terminating my Photobucket account those photos will disappear. But the new Flicker based ones will remain. It was a bit of a pain to edit each one of my posts and re-insert the photos. I can't imagine doing that for all of the WIPs and RFIs that I've posted over the years. Yikes! All of my photos are safely backed up, so even if the Photobucket account goes bye-bye, I still have all the photos. I used to have a "Pro" account at Photobucket, and when they changed their plans a few years back, it was grandfathered in as a "Plus 20" account. I have no idea if it originally allowed 3rd party hosting, but if it did maybe I'll be OK. We'll see what happens. We may see some progress on the 111B soon, as I'm starting to feel much better. Of course, I still have that sinus surgery scheduled for July 7...ugh. But at least I felt good enough to see my favourite band, King Crimson, last night right here in good old Rottenchester. Awesome show - just unbelievable. Cheers for now, Bill 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickyrich Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Good to here you're on the mend!!! I'm on one of those "Plus 20" accounts as well, so i think that's why my photos are still up as well. Though it's up for the moment I suspect after the next billing cycle I'll end up with the ransomware sign as well. I've jump to SmugMug, I pay for the servive but nothing like what PB wants. Looking forward to when you get back to your beastie, keep looking after yourself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Great to hear that you seem to be on the mend Bill. I am looking forward to seeing some more of your beautiful craftsmanship. Martian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Laidlaw Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Navy Bird said: as I'm starting to feel much better This is a good thing to read. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Navy Bird said: I'm starting to feel much better. Good. A world without Bill scarcely bears thinking about. Bears scarcely think about it, too, a fine testament to those noble omnivores. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Procopius said: Good. A world without Bill scarcely bears thinking about. Bears scarcely think about it, too, a fine testament to those noble omnivores. Hey, PC, how have you been? I seem to have missed your recent posts. I need some excuse to go back to Chicago so we can sit in a faux-Irish pub all afternoon and get tanked talking about Homer (The Iliad, not Simpson). Wait a minute, that sounds like a good enough reason right there! Cheers, Bill PS. Since the F-111 Group Build ends soon, I'm going to create a separate thread over in the WIP section for Aircraft Modelling. All further updates will be posted there. Once I have that set up, I'll add a link to it here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 On 7/2/2017 at 8:18 AM, Navy Bird said: Hey, PC, how have you been? I seem to have missed your recent posts. I need some excuse to go back to Chicago so we can sit in a faux-Irish pub all afternoon and get tanked talking about Homer (The Iliad, not Simpson). Wait a minute, that sounds like a good enough reason right there! I've been mojo-less for a spell, currently sanding and filling a bathroom floor before (hopefully) getting new porcelain tiles down before Mrs. P gets back from Michigan. Someday, perhaps, I'll build again. Just need to find the will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted July 4, 2017 Author Share Posted July 4, 2017 Part 2 of the F-111B build is over in the Aircraft Modelling Work In Progress forum. You can find it here: I'm really sorry I couldn't have this one done in time for the end of this Group Build. Stupid life, always getting in the way! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickyrich Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 no worries Bill, life can be a real pain sometimes. I'm glad you you came along, even if you weren't able to finish her in time it was fantastic to follow your work. Good luck with the rest of the build, we'll all be following you on that thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Bill, I have only just caught up with this; a fascinating story. There is a long and pretty dishonourable history of assorted services systematically undermining aircraft designs they didn't want; RAF anti-Buccaneer / Mountbatten anti-TSR2 spring to mind, & there are other examples. Even current ones if rumours are to be believed. I knew next to nothing about the F111B, beyond the fact that it was cancelled & that the RAF version, had it gone ahead, was to have had the longer "Navy" wings. Anyway, interesting though all this is, I'd also idly wondered why I hadn't read much from you of late, and am so sorry to learn of your continued health fun & games. Get well soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 On 7/10/2017 at 06:45, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Anyway, interesting though all this is, I'd also idly wondered why I hadn't read much from you of late, and am so sorry to learn of your continued health fun & games. Get well soon! Thanks - I'm working on getting well even as I type. The splints come out of the sinuses in a couple of days and then I should be able to breathe through my nose again. Oh sweet mercy that will be wonderful. My right lung is looking good, as the fluid has not returned, but my Immunoglobulin G numbers have not come up, even with the transfusion. They might want me to get another. That's easy though, and much preferred to having a drain tube, pigtail, and stopcock in your side! Cheers, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 If it helps, I have made you getting well a Martian Order so you now have no option! To cheer you up I have been laminating bits of plastic card together this morning so there should be some white plastic card porn for you to drool over very soon. Martian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Martian Hale said: If it helps, I have made you getting well a Martian Order so you now have no option! To cheer you up I have been laminating bits of plastic card together this morning so there should be some white plastic card porn for you to drool over very soon. Is this the Royal Order of Barsoom, bestowed by Dejah Thoris? That will do the trick! Cheers, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, Navy Bird said: Is this the Royal Order of Barsoom, bestowed by Dejah Thoris? That will do the trick! Cheers, Bill Never heard of that one Bill but its the Martian equivalent of a Fuhrer Befehl with added burglecruncheon! Compliance is much healthier. Martian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallysDad Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Hi again. I didn't know you were interested in Homer. I came across a wonderful book called, "The War That Killed Achilles." I enjoyed it greatly. Just the thing to dive into as you recover. Take things easy and get well. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 5 hours ago, Martian Hale said: Never heard of that one Bill but its the Martian equivalent of a Fuhrer Befehl with added burglecruncheon! Compliance is much healthier. Sorry, that was a reference to a series of books written by Edgar Rice Burroughs (the Tarzan guy). Did you see the film "John Carter" a few years ago? That was based on the first book in the series called "A Princess of Mars." The books are all typical pulp fiction sci-fi novels written back in the early 20th century primarily for teenage boys, and take place in this fantastic hypothetical Martian culture. Mars is dying (and drying) and the canals are empty - take one part wild west, another part Ivanhoe, and toss it all onto another planet and you get the idea. Fun stuff. 4 hours ago, Bendinggrass said: I didn't know you were interested in Homer. I came across a wonderful book called, "The War That Killed Achilles." I enjoyed it greatly. Just the thing to dive into as you recover. Take things easy and get well. My interest in Homer stems from my armchair archaeology interests. It's fun to try and connect what's in the earth with the ancient writings. And Homer, of course, is an industry all by himself. So this is the book by Caroline Alexander? I've seen some reviews, perhaps it's time to download it for my Kindle. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Sounds interesting, I may well have to check it out to see if bears any resemblance to the Mars I know! Martian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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