Jump to content

Supermarine Spitfire XIV


Beard

Recommended Posts

Some more progress:

 

The starboard upper cowling has been attached.

 

20170414_161111

 

As has the port side.

 

20170414_165514

 

I'll sort that gap out with copious amounts of glue and some tape later.

 

Cleaning up the fairings for the .50s is going to be interesting.

 

20170414_161540

 

Sword would have you fit sidewalls for the undercarriage bays...

 

20170414_163839

 

The more sensible amongst us (Procopius and Cookenbacher, for example) know that to do so is pure folly and will result in much swearing when the unwary modeller attempts to join the top and bottom wings.

I have learnt the hard way to leave them out and drill the attachment points for the undercarriage legs a little.

(Top = before, bottom = after)

 

20170414_163721

 

Another of the traps Sword set for us is the head armour, they have you remove it. Like a fool, I blindly followed orders and cut it off... I've made a replacement from some plastic card.

 

20170414_163329

 

Finally, the wheelwells need painting. This is often a bone of contention. If they're part of the interior, are they grey-green or silver; if they're part of the exterior, then they'd be the underside colour.

The late Edgar Brooks had this to say,

"Are you, ever, in "can of worms" territory, with this one. The stark truth is that, probably, we'll never know. I have the 1942 & post-war Supermarine drawings, for internal finishes, and wheel wells are not mentioned, so you have to decide if they were considered as internal, or external, components. Apart from the cockpit, internal parts were silver, over a grey undercoat. The cockpit (and, at some stage, probably post-war, other internal parts) was grey-green over the same grey undercoat. If the wells were considered to be exterior, they would have been underside colour, over the undercoat. I've seen unrebuilt Spitfires, from the Mk.I to 22, with green wells, and just as many with u/s colour. One of the best pieces of advice, that I ever received, came from John Beaman, who said "Paint it what you think is right, and challenge the others to prove you wrong."

 

I'm going to paint them aluminium, partly because Edgar also wrote this,

"The specification was for all interiors (apart from the cockpit, firewall, and engine bearers, which
were green)to be silver, but the problem comes with deciding if Supermarine viewed the wells
as part of the interior, since they don't actually say.
Since the oleos were part of the wings' "furniture," it seems fairly logical that the wells might
have been painted (therefore silver) before they, and the wheels, were fitted, after all, they
would need to make sure that the wheels didn't foul any part of the wings as they retracted.
I've never been able to make my mind up, on this particular item, but I'm leaning, more and
more, to silver wells, since, late in the Spitfire production run, interior colour changed to cockpit
grey­green, and I've seen a 22 with green wheel wells and door interiors. Moving backwards,
with logic, if late interiors and wells were green, early wells could have been the same silver as
early interiors.
Of course, once an airframe has gone to an M.U., for a major service, there's the very real
possibility that a respray might have been done with the aircraft on its wheels, and the sprayer
just sprayed straight over the wells, leaving them in the underside colour; he would not,
however, have sprayed the area where the oleo legs fitted.
Oleo legs and leg cover interiors were normally painted silver, so it's very likely that the same
applied to the tailwheel doors, and since the well was completely enclosed, and therefore
interior, it, too, was probably silver."

 

They've had an undercoat of Humbrol 33.

 

20170414_165132

 

Thanks for looking,

Beard

Edited by Beard
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Greenshirt said:

What could you be thinking..."better" XIV by mating the Sword fuselage to the Eduard wings?

 

Inquisitive minds would like to know...

 

"Easier" full-span wings. I have some overtrees that will be spare. Maybe... 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Procopius said:

 

"Easier" full-span wings. I have some overtrees that will be spare. Maybe... 

I'm not finding the Eduard wingtips to be at issue.  A bit fiddly, yes, but compared to the rest of the Sword wing the Eduard would be easier IMO; Sword being treated like a limited run kit.  And the Eduard wingtips are no more fiddly than any other part of the kit.  It's all fiddly given how it's engineered.

 

I was hoping you'd had an epiphany regarding fit of a griffon fuselage to the earlier wings from the Eduard kit.   I do sometimes sit and mix/match different kits to see what I may come up with.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well done on avoiding a 'cave in' with the difficult cowl tops Simon, that's 90% of the work on this kit.

 

Thanks for the wheel well info gathered in one place. I've been mostly painting them the underside color, except for the 22 underway right now, which I've gone with Interior grey green since Edgar mentioned seeing that color on an actual preserved example.

 

Tim, I had plans for using an Eduard VIII fuselage and wings with a Sword nose and vertical stabilizer to make a XIV, but the earmarked overtrees have become the beginnings of a Mk 21, combined with Airfix 22 wings and nose.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Cookenbacher said:

Well done on avoiding a 'cave in' with the difficult cowl tops Simon, that's 90% of the work on this kit.

 

Thanks Cookie, they caved in a couple of times before I took the photograph and aren't perfect but I can live with them.

 

11 minutes ago, Cookenbacher said:

 

Thanks for the wheel well info gathered in one place. I've been mostly painting them the underside color, except for the 22 underway right now, which I've gone with Interior grey green since Edgar mentioned seeing that color on an actual preserved example.

 

If you want all the info Edgar gathered, have look here: https://www.jonbius.com/edgar-brooks-spitfire-notes/

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Beard said:

Finally, the wheelwells need painting. This is often a bone of contention. If they're part of the interior, are they grey-green or silver; if they're part of the exterior, then they'd be the underside colour.

The late Edgar Brooks had this to say,

"Are you, ever, in "can of worms" territory, with this one. The stark truth is that, probably, we'll never know. I have the 1942 & post-war Supermarine drawings, for internal finishes, and wheel wells are not mentioned, so you have to decide if they were considered as internal, or external, components. Apart from the cockpit, internal parts were silver, over a grey undercoat. The cockpit (and, at some stage, probably post-war, other internal parts) was grey-green over the same grey undercoat. If the wells were considered to be exterior, they would have been underside colour, over the undercoat. I've seen unrebuilt Spitfires, from the Mk.I to 22, with green wells, and just as many with u/s colour. One of the best pieces of advice, that I ever received, came from John Beaman, who said "Paint it what you think is right, and challenge the others to prove you wrong."

 

I'm going to paint them aluminium, partly because Edgar also wrote this,

"The specification was for all interiors (apart from the cockpit, firewall, and engine bearers, which
were green)to be silver, but the problem comes with deciding if Supermarine viewed the wells
as part of the interior, since they don't actually say.
Since the oleos were part of the wings' "furniture," it seems fairly logical that the wells might
have been painted (therefore silver) before they, and the wheels, were fitted, after all, they
would need to make sure that the wheels didn't foul any part of the wings as they retracted.
I've never been able to make my mind up, on this particular item, but I'm leaning, more and
more, to silver wells, since, late in the Spitfire production run, interior colour changed to cockpit
grey­green, and I've seen a 22 with green wheel wells and door interiors. Moving backwards,
with logic, if late interiors and wells were green, early wells could have been the same silver as
early interiors.
Of course, once an airframe has gone to an M.U., for a major service, there's the very real
possibility that a respray might have been done with the aircraft on its wheels, and the sprayer
just sprayed straight over the wells, leaving them in the underside colour; he would not,
however, have sprayed the area where the oleo legs fitted.
Oleo legs and leg cover interiors were normally painted silver, so it's very likely that the same
applied to the tailwheel doors, and since the well was completely enclosed, and therefore
interior, it, too, was probably silver."

 

They've had an undercoat of Humbrol 33.

 

 

 

Thanks for looking,

Beard

 

IMO

innner leg part = interior

 

outer wheel part = exterior

 

why?

 

 

Quote

 

  On 7/1/2015 at 20:52, Edgar said:

It rather needs a little lateral thinking, since Supermarine drawings advocated interior areas (except the cockpit and engine bearers) should be silver, but it's a rather moot point if you consider the wheel wells to be interior areas, or not. Oleo legs and door interiors started off silver, but anything could (and did) happen in the first two years of war.

Given that the Defiant, Hurricane and Typhoon wells were all silver, I tend to go with the idea that the Spitfire would have been the same (cue photo of Spitfire with black & white wells,) but the block and noose are now obsolete, so it's really your choice.

 

 

My response, note lack of any sort of response to the evidence presented in linked thred.
 

Quote


difficult to find photos showing the underside and wheel well, and they are B/W.

spit1-12.jpg

spitfire.jpg

Spitfire1602a.jpg

freeborn3_1715764c.jpg

There is a pres vist to 602 sq at Drem in winter 39/40, with a series of clear pics

this is interesting and I've seen more shots from this series bigger, note the leg portion has a light edge, so is catching the light, but the wheel part is dark,

RAF-Drem-004.jpg

Other black winged Spitfires show blacklegs/wheel hubs

RAF-Drem-002.jpg

 

 

OK, all early, so, how about this, 1943, in colour.

11119962003_7feac13528_o.jpgEngine overhaul   c1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Seafire, but in colour,

2527522690_8dd6b585b4.jpg


 

from

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234974004-question-for-wwii-aircraft-manufacturing-experts/

 

I spent sometime digging through images,  all the above show outer well section in underside colour.

 

HTH

T

 

 

Edited by Troy Smith
clarity
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Troy, especially for the link to the thread because there's a post ny Edgar in which he writes,

'The Spitfire might have gone to green around 1943 (MH434's fuselage interior is green, as were the Mk.22's wheel wells.)'

 

Now, that's either helpful or unhelpful depending on whether you've just painted the wheelwells of your Spitfire XIV silver or grey-green.

Edited by Beard
to correct spelling.
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Beard said:

Thanks Troy, especially for the link to the thread because there's a post ny Edgar in which he writes,

'The Spitfire might have gone to green around 1943 (MH434's fuselage interior is green, as were the Mk.22's wheel wells.)'

 

Now, that's either helpful or unhelpful depending on whether you've just painted the wheelwells of your Spitfire XIV silver or grey-green.

 

ah. Yes.

One point hat strikes me, the 22 with green wells, well, 22's have outer gear doors, so all the well become "interior"

before that, as the posted pics show, is visible, a bit, even when wheel is retracted, so 'exterior'

the inner oleo leg section is not visible, and is essentially part of the wing interior.

 

here's a rather good shot of a PR XI, the outer well is just visible as PRU blue,  as are the gear leg and inside of doors

3269412203_34071282fc_o.jpgSpitfire P R Mk. XI by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

a further peruse of Etienne Du Plessis flickr of colour shots, these are the Spitfires, always worth a browse

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787%40N07&q=spitfire

 

a XIVe (which maybe of general use Simon,) note chipped paint on metal edging of the prop blades, and what look like MSG gear legs

3690539310_6cf2a9e36e_o.jpgSpitfire XIVE by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

a IX at a training unit, again MSG legs/doors

7617060184_3fb64dd173_o.jpgSpitfire Mk.IXC      1945 by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

cheers

T

 

PS IIRC, the leading edge sheathing on jablo prop blades, like XIV above, was brass sheet, given the illumination of the photo is a bit yellow/warm, but I think I can see a brass colour on the chips... 

Hmm, I feel a WWII section query is needed. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The photograph of the XIV is excellent Troy.

 

I've been doing some 'research' and here are a few photographs I've found:

 

322-spit14.jpg

(from http://www.spitfireperformance.com)

Not much use when it comes to deciding what colour the wheelwells are but I like to think that the pilot is showing his new 'toy' off to his friends.

 

spit14-1.jpg

 

spit14-9.jpg

(The last two are from http://www.airwar.ru)

 

I don't want to fall into the trap of trying to interpret colours from black & white photographs but it certainly looks like the undercarriage legs (apart from the moving bit of the oleo), inside of the undercarriage doors and, at least, part of the wheelwell are painted in the undersurface colour.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a conundrum...but, I've never found a clear photo that shows the outer wheel well in anything but the underside colour, note also the edges of the oleo section are also in the underside colour.

and...from here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59537-the-definitive-spitfire-mk1-thread/

 

Steve N posted photos of the Spit Mk.I hanging up in Chicago, which has not been repainted since serving in  Training Command

 

11-28-10024.jpg

 

11-28-10027.jpg

 

OK, this is not a factory finish, but can anyone come up with a pre 20 series (20 series have outer doors) Spitfire with obviously non underside colour outer wells?

Bear in mind Edgar says the finishing definition depend on if 'internal' or 'external'  

 

Imagine how much less fun this would be if we had proper answers.... 

 

cheers

T

 

Edited by Troy Smith
spelling
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Imagine how much less fun this would be if we had proper answers.... 

 

Indeed... I'd have to be helping my wife do some painting.

 

Looking at the photographs you posted, I don't know if it's my old eyes, or that I'm seeing something I want to see, but does the wall of the wheelwell has a distinct grey-green colour to it?

Also, the aircraft has had a re-paint, possibly more than one on the underside, would whoever repainted it have bothered to mask the wheelwells?

Edited by Beard
to correct spelling.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have done some more work on the Spitfire today and, as I'm not back at work until Thursday, may get it finished.

 

So far, I've masked the yellow bits on the end of the propeller blades:

 

20170415_160945

 

and given them a first coat of Humbrol 33:

 

2017-04-15_04-53-45

 

I sometimes wonder if Sword do test-builds of their kits. The cockpit parts are too wide for the fuselage, meaning that you have to shave a fair amount off of them and, even then, take some plastic off the wing roots to get enough dihedral.

More seriously, they're too deep and interfere with the fit of the lower wing and fuselage:

 

20170415_155617

 

The solution is two-stage. Firstly, trim the instrument panel:

 

20170415_161325

 

(Quite severely.)

 

Then, shave some plastic from the lower wing part:

 

20170415_155914

 

(Quite a lot more was removed.)

 

Of course, it's entirely possible that Sword did numerous test-builds before releasing this kit and that the person who did them is a far better modeller than me.

 

After a few minutes sanding and filing, my thoughts turned to a report I'd read, that compared the MkXIV to the Bf109G, which stated that, due to the Spitfire's lack of endurance, it would usually be flown with a 90 gallon tank (it was 20mph at 20'000 feet even with the tank).

I had a dig through the spares box and found these:

 

2017-04-15_06-08-32

 

I reckon they are, from left to right, 30 gallon, 45 gallon and, 90 gallon.

 

Thanks for looking.

Edited by Beard
to correct spelling.
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice work Simon. I've been lurking with no likes left, but I've got some now to share out :).

 

Nice keyboards by the way, and what better way to start a thread than with Mr Hitchcock (just ordered his new album on good old vinyl)!?

 

I was one of those that sold a couple of analogue synths for tiny prices in around 1985-7. A Wasp and a SH-101. I think less than £70 each. Times change!

 

Sword really have made this one a little tricky with the cockpit conundrum. Thanks for sharing a way to try to get around it, plus get the correct dihedral.

 

I'd like a Griffon model, apart from the cockpit conundrum, I like the way this one looks; quite restrained panel

lines and not 'short run' (even if it may be); it looks good (looking at the pic of your built up one).

 

Have a happy modelling Easter :)

Best regards

TonyT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Nice work Simon.

 

Thanks Tony.

3 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Nice keyboards by the way, and what better way to start a thread than with Mr Hitchcock (just ordered his new album on good old vinyl)!?

 

I'll be ordering it in the near future.

 

3 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

I was one of those that sold a couple of analogue synths for tiny prices in around 1985-7. A Wasp and a SH-101. I think less than £70 each. Times change!

 

I was one of those who didn't cash-in on the fire sale. Didn't the Wasp not have a proper keyboard? 

 

3 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

 

Sword really have made this one a little tricky with the cockpit conundrum. Thanks for sharing a way to try to get around it, plus get the correct dihedral.

 

I'd like a Griffon model, apart from the cockpit conundrum, I like the way this one looks; quite restrained panel

lines and not 'short run' (even if it may be); it looks good (looking at the pic of your built up one).

 

It may, of course, be me rather than Sword. If you want an easy Griffon Spitfire, I recommend the Airfix 22; it's a splendid kit.

 

3 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Have a happy modelling Easter

 

You too.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crikey, that wing fit is horrid isn't it? I can't believe it's you... good work though and I'm sure you'll get it to fit :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, CedB said:

Crikey, that wing fit is horrid isn't it? I can't believe it's you... good work though and I'm sure you'll get it to fit :) 

 

Oh, it could be me but it's nearly sorted. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like its progressed very nicely! I don't think it is you as it's been noted in a number of builds... is it there 109 that Edward had to cut a load of the interior off?? You appear to have persuaded it perfectly!

 

as for the tanks I thought the middle was a 90 and the last a 120 but I am not to be trusted at all

 

Rob

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Beard said:

Didn't the Wasp not have a proper keyboard? 

 

Thats right Simon. I know they're collectible now, but build wise I wasn't keen. It was very thin, weak plastic. The keys were just indicative, press/touch sensitive membrane affairs.

 

It's long ago, but the school friend I got it from may have build it from a kit? It was very like the Sinclair  ZX - 80 computer in concept, but for a keyboard/synthesiser rather than a computer.

 

The SH-101 was a lot more solid.

 

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just had a look for Wasp synths for sale and found one for £875! Mind you that was in hipster-infested Hackney. 

 

SH-09s go for up to £750. Mine cost £50 in 1984/5. 

 

There was, if I recall correctly, a Maplin kit to make a synth but I can't remember what it was called.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

More progress on the Spitfire.

 

I joined the wings to the fuselage:

 

20170416_123545

 

then turned my attention to the radiators, where there's more proof that Sword didn't do a test-build... the radiators don't fit in the fairing or the recesses in the wing:

 

20170416_124222

 

20170416_124142

 

quite a lot of plastic has to be removed from their sides before they fit:

 

20170416_123613

 

and you have to make them shallower, otherwise they interfere with the fit of the fairing to the wing.

 

5 hours ago, rob85 said:

as for the tanks I thought the middle was a 90 and the last a 120 but I am not to be trusted at all

 

 

I wasn't ignoring you Rob, I wanted to take a photograph of a tank... I think this is a 180 gallon:

 

20170416_134709

 

(At least, I think it's 180 gallon tank.)

Edited by Beard
to insert text.
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, CedB said:

Ouf, as PC would say - this kit is really challenging eh?

Good work Simon :) 

 

Thanks Ced.

Not really challenging. You've made a couple of Valom kits so it would be a walk in the park.

 

22 minutes ago, rob85 said:

That's nuts! It actually isn't made to go together! 

 

Thats a a big old tank! I don't know enough to say weather 180 is right or not but it certainly looks it.

 

Rob

 

It does go together but not as easily as Sword's Spitfire VCs, for example. Luckily, I know most of the pitfalls and, apart from the wings not being quite as good as they could be, have avoided most of them. The airframe is together so I just need to add the carburettor intake and the radiators and she'll be ready for painting.

 

I pretty sure that's a 180 gallon tank (or, at least a 1/72 scale rendition of one), if I'm right they were used for ferry flights only.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...