spanish civil war me109 grey

[cossack52]

which,by consensus among S.C.W. modellers,is an appropriate grey?even the eduard instructions are vague,quoting rlm02 or rlm 63.rlm o2 certainly looks too dark to me

[fewr9fkr9595]

I back 63

[Jure Miljevic]

Yes, RLM 63. Cheers

Jure

[TonyTiger66]

It is the subject of great, long and continuing debate. 

 

Network 54 is your best bet to track down    where the consensus lies.

 

The truth is that it lies in the agreement that RLM standards didn't exist, per se, early in the war and that we're sure that we can't be sure of anything much at all.

 

If your particular interest is the Bf-109; some were quite possibly not grey at all; above all those of the first batch of 16 (or so).

Even there, contention and confusion lies.

 

A main issue to emerge from many years (decades) of discussion has been as said,  the RLM standard had not actually been truly introduced at the production date of the earliest Bf-109's.

Most desiring a peaceful life and sanity would rather not go there  , as is the case with Eduard and even the notes on the Hataka SCW paint set.

 

My best advice after personal experience of quarter of a century of this far longer and wider debate;

 

Check out the extensive Nerwork 54 and other discussions.

 

Look at as many photographs of your chosen Bf-109 *at the time in the conflict you wish to model it* from as many angles as possible. If we take e.g. 6 o 10 and 6 o 56, their appearances and possible shades/colours/finishes change a lot. They aren't unique in this respect. 6 o 56 is a bane of contention in terms of what it even was, and if there was more than one if it (one for purely propaganda photograph purposes; a different marque at that).

 

The main researchers cannot even even agree on how many A (?), B, C (?), D or E series aircraft were involved, what number demarcations exist, e.g. between B and C (?), what colours the prototypes originally were (silver laquer, grey, natural metal, gray green semi transparent laquer over natural metal) and so on.

 

Therefore my final advice:

 

Go with your instinct.

 

No SCW enthusiast will judge you badly whatever you do.

 

I Hope you will put a WIP of your 109 here;  I adore SCW subjects.

 

All the best

TonyT

 

 

[dogsbody]

Just to swirl the spoon through the can of worms, I present this image:

 

 

 

From this book:

 

 

 

Chris

Edited July 2, 2017 by dogsbody

[Troy Smith]

discussion on SCW Bf109's here

 

the profile Chris posted is very old and superceded by newer information, as discussed in linked thread.

 

13 hours ago, cossack52 said:

which,by consensus among S.C.W. modellers,is an appropriate grey?even the eduard instructions are vague,quoting rlm02 or rlm 63.rlm o2 certainly looks too dark to me

 

check the links in the thread above, and look for photos of the subject, 

Quote

The A's were either in overall light grey (L40/51 Grau) or an aluminum paint, depending on which airframe you're modeling and at what time it's being depicted, and what you think the photos look like... Michael Ullmann and I agree that at least a few seem to have been painted overall aluminum, but we have no absolute evidence of that other than reflectivity of the surfaces in photos. (A's were serial 6-4 through 6-18)

 

The earliest B's were delivered in the bone-stock RLM 70/71/65 splinter scheme (6-19 through at least the high 30s... I think I have a shot of 6-38 in the splinter scheme). There was a subsequent batch of B's including Handrick's famed 6-56 which has never been seen in anything but the now well-known 63 Hellgrau over 65 Hellblau scheme; one of those, 6-55, also has a really interesting 3-tone splinter on the wings matching the tones used on the Do 17s and He 111s (presumably 61/62/63), but I've never quite been able to tell if the splinter was applied to the tailplanes as well.

 

There's been a lot of new and interesting research developments on the early Spanish 109s since I did my first book back in 2005 and frankly, I don't know that ANYONE knows exactly which serial was the last B model and which was the first D at this point... and I don't think there's ever been any conclusive evidence showing that any fuel-injected C models made it to Spain. Common theory has been that there were five in the 6-4x range, but I'm going back through photos of those ships to see if they too might be B models like 6-55 and 6-56.

 

It's a little maddening, but it's fun. Sort of. 

 

Cheers,

 

Lynn

 

for Bf109E

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1264517263

 

In Lynn Ritger's Bf109 datafile, there are colour photos of parts of an original unrestored Spanish 109 E,  Bf 109E 6-87

 

You may want to search for the exact aircraft you wish to model, and see what the photos look like

this site has loads of 109 photos, this is the Spanish 109E section,

http://www.me109.info/web.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ergebnis_suche&sucheart=suchezusammen

there maybe more of you search up the specific number.

 

Looking at the pics in the link I think RLM 63 is most likely

 

here's some more discussion

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

RLM standards did exist before the appearance of the Bf109, witness the colours used on the Heinkel fighters and bombers.  I'd also steer well clear of civilian paints normally summarised as L40/53 Hellgrau (there are others), except perhaps on some JU52s "taken up from trade".   RLM63 is a light colour that faded (or perhaps chalked) quite dramatically.  It moved from a smooth greenish/yellowish grey to a duller more neutral light grey - hence the confusion with the civilian paints.  Photos of the Heinkel He111s show this progression, with new ones appearing smooth and slightly darker where the ones with a service history are much lighter and (apparently) more matt.  Of course, interpreting from photos is fraught with possible error, but given the available colour standards and known paint recipes there seems no room for doubt that RLM63 was not a simple light grey as so often featured.   (The same effect is noted on the similar colour used on the Mitsubishi Zero and other Japanese types.)

 

Artistic representation of RLM02 is often considerably darker than the real thing, and this problem reads across to model paints.  RLM63 and RLM02 are very similar colour (on the colour cards) but RLM02 was only used for interiors at the time of the 61/62/63 scheme.  The Luftwaffe changed its paint chemistry at the time the 70/71 schemes appeared, and 02 was then used for exteriors too.

 

It seems that post civil war the Spanish Air Force adopted a more stable colour that was a light grey to start with, and this no doubt served to help the confusion.

[TonyTiger66]

Can of worms opened. .

Troy's quotes and links are superb.

Lynn's comments are wonderful, especially; 

"It's a little maddening, but it's fun, sort of".

 

Her comments explain why I placed question marks after 'A' and 'C' in my original comments. 

 

It's really quite difficult, as she says, to find solid proof of 'C' series in the SCW. The photographic proof, well, isn't.

 

But that's getting off the subject.

 

As Graham says, there should have been RLM standards, which is why I wrote 'per se' in qualifying my statement.

 

Unfortunately it really is far more complicated. Individual paint manufacturers codes and names (German language, naturally) as shown on manifests, receipts, stock lists,  make it all the more of a chortle for the earliest aircraft.

 

One can be emphatic if one wishes and find supporting proof for almost any stance. Which is why 'go with your instincts' is best. They can't really be disproved if reasonable enough.

 

I would love to point to  many discussions and scans and documentation relating to all of this, but it's all been done so, so much. It really is best to just accept it's a little unknown, with, as has been alluded to, the exception of some Bf-109 E's. 

 

I think my friend and fellow SCW enthusiast @JWM may be able to point in the direction of some discussions. Also, I think he'll probably support my stance on self enforced vagueness in a subject we've, so many of us , studied until half insane. I could really write so much more, but there's not a lot of point.

 

"It's a little maddening, but it's fun, sort of".

 

So very, very well said..

 

TonyT

 

 

[JWM]

9 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

I think my friend and fellow SCW enthusiast @JWM may be able to point in the direction of some discussions. Also, I think he'll probably support my stance on self enforced vagueness in a subject we've, so many of us , studied until half insane. I could really write so much more, but there's not a lot of point.

Since Tony was kind to use my name in this contex I feel a bit call to tell someting... I am 100% sur but I think that it is RLM-63. Later some- mostly BF 109E - they were green (RLM 62 - except those presented above in two-tone, if it is true). I was trying to study this before, in case of He 51 and He 45, and initially I though also about RLM 02, but after some time it apperad to me that German rule was simple - if the colour was applied overall it was 02 (like for seaplanes - Arado 195, Heinkel 59, Henkel 60) , when there was light blue underside - no more RLM-02 on top. 

Cheers

J-W

[lasermonkey]

Lynn's a bloke, by the way!

[Bobk]

this pretty well answers the question. 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1489460211

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Bobk said:

this pretty well answers the question. 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1489460211

no, that answers the question what were the prototypes and early A models finished in,  'silber-weiss'  very interesting and great there is new information/book out,  but the question was about Bf109E's in Spain,  which were not finished in the same way.

 

D  and E models were sent to Spain in standard 70/71, and repainted.

The remains of Bf 109 E 5-88,  are discussed on page 79/80 of the Vol1 of the Bf109 Datafile, (book at hand to check)  and the colour most closely resembles faded RLM 63

more on 5-88 here

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?99006-Surviving-Bf109E-3-Condor-Legion-6-88&s=cc7ed2588dd8833ade94e77235f46f7f

 

HTH

T

 

[Bpasenelli]

Never an end to paint discussions.

[Nick Millman]

On 10 April 2017 at 0:15 PM, Graham Boak said:

RLM63 and RLM02 are very similar colour (on the colour cards) 

 

Not really. RLM 63 is a Munsell Green-Yellow whilst RLM 02 is a Munsell Yellow and they are at a difference of 3.10 where < 2.0 = a close match. The most evident difference to the eye is that 63 is greener and "cooler" whilst RLM 02 is yellower/browner and "warmer".

 

63 was intended as a camouflage colour whilst 02 was a protective, anti-corrosive coating of complex formula containing (in one manufacturer's recipe) a proprietary fire-resistant lead white product called "Timonex RS" at 2.94%, chrome green 0.08%, titanium oxide (white) 2.15%, chrome yellow 0.18%, six-times refined carbon black 0.02%, 0.59% aluminium bronze, 3.47% black paste and 1.10% red paste. I presume that the chrome green was probably chromium oxide. The pigments were mixed in ethyl acetate before being added to the rest of the formula which formed a fairly standard base lacquer apart from the inclusion of a polyvinyl chloride product called "Vinoflex" at 10.56%. 

 

The Zero factory colour was more closely similar to 02 than 63, also being a protective, anti-corrosive coating rather than a camouflage colour per se.

 

Nick 

[Graham Boak]

Yes really.  I have gone back and compared the colour cards given by Merrick in the Air Classics book, and the two colours are indeed very similar to my eye.  If they are slightly more different than your definition of a close match, I can quite happily accept that without wishing in the slightest to change my expressed opinion.  I did not say they were identical.  Other people are free to consult the same sheets and come to their own opinion.  To me, the similarity between the two colours is such that I would defy anyone to distinguish between the two on aircraft in contemporary practice, and in available colour and b&w photos.  (Other of course than in context of use.)

 

The important points I wished to make were the difference between both colours (when new) and the very light grey often used to represent them on profiles of SCW; and the fading that RLM63 was prone to.  It is my opinion that this fading is partly the reason why so many commentators have assumed this colour to be so light and lacking in colour hue.   I believe that another influence comes from a range of light greys in use in the 1930s, pre-RLM standardisation.  Whether RLM 02 fades in quite the same way  I do not know: if you have anything useful to add to this, please don't be shy to speak out.

[Nick Millman]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Yes really.  I have gone back and compared the colour cards given by Merrick in the Air Classics book, and the two colours are indeed very similar to my eye.  If they are slightly more different than your definition of a close match, I can quite happily accept that without wishing in the slightest to change my expressed opinion.  I did not say they were identical.  Other people are free to consult the same sheets and come to their own opinion.  To me, the similarity between the two colours is such that I would defy anyone to distinguish between the two on aircraft in contemporary practice, and in available colour and b&w photos.  (Other of course than in context of use.)

 

The important points I wished to make were the difference between both colours (when new) and the very light grey often used to represent them on profiles of SCW; and the fading that RLM63 was prone to.  It is my opinion that this fading is partly the reason why so many commentators have assumed this colour to be so light and lacking in colour hue.   I believe that another influence comes from a range of light greys in use in the 1930s, pre-RLM standardisation.  Whether RLM 02 fades in quite the same way  I do not know: if you have anything useful to add to this, please don't be shy to speak out.

 

You are describing personal and subjective perception - "to my eye" is the clue and not a caveat with which you qualified your original assertion. The colour science tells a different story. They are not "a very similar colour" although they might look that way to you and to others. And it is not my definition of a close match but the difference calculation formula established by the Commission International de l’Éclairage (CIE). The very fact that they are in two separate Munsell categories of colour should at least persuade you to perhaps re-consider the dogma of your assertion. And by the way that calculation is based on measurement in L*a*b* of the colour cards in Merrick and elsewhere. I wouldn't want you to change your expressed opinion but I see no reason why I should not offer a factual counterpoint to its implied fact. 

 

You are also conflating the appearance of the applied paints on aeroplanes with the paint colour standard which I was describing. The fading you attribute to RLM 63 is interesting and I could not dispute it but I have no idea how you are evidencing it or how that could be discerned from any similar fading - or perhaps chalking - of RLM 02. 

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

[GrahamB]

A contributing factor to the perceived lightening (or "chalking") of RLM63 (re RLM02, that Nick correctly says is yellower/browner anyway) seems to be that the RLM61/62/63 series were applied in a thinner coating than later schemes (or the pigment density was lower) - I think this has been mentioned in a couple of the recent Luftwaffe colour tomes. When seen in proximity, RLM61/62/63 airframes appear considerably lighter in tone than RLM70/71 versions, even though the difference in tone - say between RLM61 and RLM71, is not that great.

 

FWIW, I would go with RLM63 (grey-green,  not a silvery grey) over RLM65  (probably the earlier, purer, blue seen in colour chips, rather than the more greenish variety usually shown on models and illustrations) for the two-toned Bf109 in the Spanish Civil War.

Cheers

GrahamB

Edited May 19, 2017 by GrahamB
clarity