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Knight Templar 1872 Iron screw steamer


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  • 2 years later...
4 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Bump.

 

Whoops, sorry Ray, just accidentally bumped this one to the top of the list.

 

Sorry about that.

I gotta do something about this now Steve, haven't I!

 

Thanks for committing me! I needed a kick up the derriere. Updates will be along soon, just finishing off some 1:1 paintwork and masking

 

Ray

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello all.

 

After a little bit of geeing-up, it is time to get back to this scratchbuild.

 

Mr @Bandsaw Steveis not at fault for this, but he has quite rightly made sure that I got back into harness and got on with the model. I cannot believe it is nearly three years since I hit modeller's block on this. I had soldered the masts, and was unsure of how to do the sails, I was certain I had got mast and jib angles wrong, and I needed to make three reasonably similar winches. So I went off and built lots of things where I did not need to think about those issues.

 

I had pottered about with the ship, painted the masts and spars (and jibs), some of the superstructure and tried making a representation of the aft gear station. This is where I am at at the moment:

 

49634190136_abd7534d8a_b.jpg

 

49633667973_2cfa80d5f8_b.jpg

 

49633668993_2df0a30e69_b.jpg

 

49634193441_4649a3096a_b.jpg

 

I have taken a punt on the colours, my reference book does not give any clues, and she survived for such a short time, there appears to be no photographs of the Knight Templar. I also ordered direct from North Star Models a load of photo-etch which may come in useful:

 

49634194266_c8e6507be5_b.jpg

 

The sets are all 1/350 scale, so may or may not look right on this 1/300 scale ship, but I have read quite often that etch is over-scale, so it may well be okay. The sets are lifebuoys, cargo hoist blocks, ships hand wheels and davit flywheel annunciators(?), turnbuckles and eyebolts, .3mm rigging loops, and three-bar railings. I know that will rule out scratchbuilding those items, but I do have my limits!

 

Now, a question for the sail-knowledgeable - if the ship is running so the spars and sails are angled at about 15 degrees, where would the jib booms be? I am thinking I may need to rebuild the masts, because in my ignorance I built the spars at 90 degrees to the direction of travel, and the jibs at 90 degrees to them (ie down the centreline of the ship) and it does not look right to me. If anyone can help, even with a quick diagram, I would be eternally grateful. I want to put this in a scene where the sea is running rough or with a relatively large swell.

 

EDIT: This is what I mean:

 

49633791443_664a26f5af_b.jpgDSCN5478 by Ray Scofield, on Flickr

 

I was thinking of having the swell along the pen lines, but would the spars be angled the way I have set them, and would the jib booms be angles more to starboard? I am not quite sure of the way the wind would be blowing to get that sea condition (if it is wind-induced), which is why I am stuck.

 

That is it for now, thanks for looking, and for rekindling my interest!

 

Ray

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I mentioned above that I had problems trying to figure out how to make the sails. Well, one of my away-from-Knight-Templar builds was a fantasy build inspired by the SF author Michael Moorcock and his book 'The Ice Schooner'. I had fun chopping up a small Airfix Cutty Sark and modifying it into my interpretation of the vessel. I needed sails on that, so I did an experiment. I asked the BM massive about how to draw lines using a 'puter, and someone gave me the info.

 

I found out how to draw the lines onto some A4 layout paper (and how to get them both sides). When held up to the light, the 'stitching' that I wanted to represent seemed to be pretty well aligned. I tried various paints and found that thinned Humbrol enamel was taken up well by the paper, and dried incredibly quickly.

 

48599687582_da425995df_b.jpg

 

I found out that the sail could be attached to a spar with a few dabs of CA gel:

 

48742325893_b0807dc0ec_b.jpg

 

I eventually ended up with this:

 

49634358501_4682cc7606_b.jpg

 

49634630682_4be63cf7de_b.jpg

 

I will not do red sails for the Knight Templar, but I think the stitching effect is not too far out. Since then I have discovered that the lines can be in a lighter grey (rather than black), so that should help a bit for later on.

 

So that solved one of the stumbling blocks, I just need to figure out how to make three similar winches now, but I do have an idea, I will let you know how it works out, for good or ill...

 

All the best, Ray

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On 08/03/2020 at 12:24, Ray S said:

 

Now, a question for the sail-knowledgeable

OK, I'll have a stab at this.

Generally speaking, the wind would be at 90 degrees to, and behind the swell. If the wind changes direction it takes a while for an established swell to change direction, but lets not complicate this so assume we've got a steady wind.

All the big sticks that have sails above or below them are spars, and the spars have different names according to their function

The 3 spars that sick out equidistant either side of the fore mast are yards, and have square sails rigged below them.

Square sails are most efficient when they're square on to the wind, ie 90 degrees to it, your photo shows these pretty close to where they should be, which is parallel to the swell.

The fore and aft sails behind each mast have a spar at the top called a gaff, and a spar at the bottom called a boom.

Unless the wind is from dead astern (when the sail can be on either side) fore and aft sails are always on the opposite side of the ship to that which the wind is blowing onto, ie as you've surmised, your gaffs and booms are on the wrong side.

With fore and aft sails, if you're sailing out of the wind (away from it) the sails are out over the side of the ship; if you're sailing into the wind, the sails are in towards the middle of the ship.

Here, the wind is largely from behind, so the sails will be out over the starboard side as the wind is coming from behind but slightly to port.

The travel of the boom will be limited by the standing rigging holding the masts up, i'd suggest about 45 degrees from the centreline

The gaff always ends up further out than the boom, I'd suggest somewhere between 50-55 degrees from centreline for this

The Jib is a sail rigged on a stay running from the bow to the foremast, a spar along the bottom of this sail would be a jib boom, possible but not very common.

If you're looking at strong wind/rough sea bear in mind that good seamanship would dictate that sail would be shortened, sail area is usually taken in from the top of a mast down, so the top one or two square sails would be taken in, and any topsails rigged between the gaffs and masts (ie above the sail between the gaff and boom) would also be taken in. After this the gaff sails would be reefed by tying up a large section of the sail immediately above the boom. This makes the vertical height of the sail shorter, and hence the gaff is much lower down the mast than when full sail is being used

Oh, and the ship will be heeling (leaning) away from the wind to starboard a bit as well.

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7 hours ago, longshanks said:

Hi Ray

 

If you do a Google search on ' How to tack a square rigged ship ' 

You'll be able to see the relationship between the sails. This will guide you as to how set your masts up

 

HTH

 

Kev

 

1 minute ago, Dave Swindell said:

OK, I'll have a stab at this.

 

@longshanks and @Dave Swindell, that immensely for your help there. I have checked out some diagrams Kev, they were very useful, and Dave, your explanation was excellent too. I now have a much better idea (and have re-learnt the nautical terminology!) of what I have to do. I will amend the gaff and boom on the foremast, it looks like the aft one can be turned to the correct angle.

 

Because this ship went down on her maiden voyage due to taking on too much water over her bows, I do not want to do the seas too heavy and depict the point of her demise, but I do want to give a bit of a hint as to the difficulties she faced. There was no report as to casualties when she foundered, but I fear the worst.

 

All the best,

 

Ray mustlearnthedifferencebetweenjibandgaff

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On 3/8/2020 at 8:24 PM, Ray S said:

I cannot believe it is nearly three years since I hit modeller's block

Gidday Ray, only three years? I began a scratch-built model of USS Alaska in 1975. I might finish it one day!

 

That ice schooner looks interesting, I've never seen or heard of one before. I'm not sure how she'd heel over with a beam wind.

 

5 hours ago, Murdo said:

had ships sinking with the same problem? 

They all sink for the same reason - too much water inside the ship instead of outside. 😁

 

It's good that you're back in the saddle Ray, or should I say back in the cockpit, or at the helm, as we're all sailors here. 🙂 I'm looking forward to seeing further progress. 

Regards, Jeff.

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11 hours ago, Murdo said:

Sounds like you and Bandsaw Steve (SS Xantho) had ships sinking with the same problem? 

The Knight Templar had 'a very slim hull and had the low engineroom skylight and boiler casing which caused losses among the early steamers.' (Courtesy of 'British Ocean Tramps Vol 1 by P. N. Thomas).

 

Lessons learnt were to raise the engineroom skylight on a six foot casing, and to introduce a raised forecastle. It was dangerous times with that new technology.

 

I may have been wrong when I said she foundered on her maiden voyage, the book does not say that, but she was built in 1872 and went down January 1873 on a voyage to India.

 

5 hours ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday Ray, only three years? I began a scratch-built model of USS Alaska in 1975. I might finish it one day!

 

That ice schooner looks interesting, I've never seen or heard of one before. I'm not sure how she'd heel over with a beam wind.

 

 

Jeff, you have got to pull your finger out - all that scratchbuilding you do on those lovely Airfix kits should have given you enough practice - go on, give it a go, you know you want to!

 

As for the Ice Schooner, practicalities are not a strong point in fantasy books, I am still wondering if I should have put an ice-anchor under midships to act as a brake...

 

All the best, Ray

 

PS, I have dismantled the foremast, spars, boom and gaff, and now have to think of a way of arranging it to be resoldered in a more convincing way, getting angles right and not falling apart.

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1 hour ago, Ray S said:

Jeff, you have got to pull your finger out - all that scratchbuilding you do on those lovely Airfix kits should have given you enough practice - go on, give it a go, you know you want to!

Gidday Ray, thanks for the compliment and you're right, I do want to do the ship. My only source of measurement back then was a single line drawing and plan inside the cover of a small book. The drawings were approximately 1/1200 so I doubled the size and made a hull, shelterdeck (and turrets I think) from balsa and matchsticks, my only building materials back then. When I got that far I decided I couldn't get the detail I wanted in such a small build so I abandoned it and restarted it, having doubled the size again, now making it nearly 790mm long. I've made most of the parts from balsa, match-sticks and paper, really just need to do the 20mm Oerlikons, radar, aircraft and some assorted stuff. But it is rather simple and crude compared to what can be done now with styrene.

     I'm thinking (just thinking as yet) of starting again, this time in 1/600 to match my other builds. This will probably be down the track a bit, there are other models I wish to do, but I have been known to get a rush of blood to the head and change my build priorities from time to time.

     Anyway, enough of me rattling on, this is your thread, not mine. Sorry if I took over a bit. Regards, Jeff.

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Hello all!

 

I have studied the information I have been given about gaffs and booms (thanks to @longshanks and @Dave Swindell!),so I partially dismantled the two masts and reset the offending items. This was easier said than done! I have read that the brass needs to be cleaner than clean, so off came three layers of paint (one primer, two of Revell acrylic), the rod was cleaned with emery cloth and then pulled through clean tissues. I then attached the masts to a ceramic tile and used a pair of 'Helping Hands' to get the gaff/booms into place and re-soldered them into position. Only to find that the angles were still not quite right! I did it again (and another again on one item), until I had something that corresponded to the guidance.

 

I still think I did not get the suggested 45 and 50 degree angles right, but here are a couple of overhead views of what I can get from the masts, along with my rather rudimentary drawn seascape idea.

 

49653077962_a1d75ce798_b.jpg

 

This first one is with the ship alignment to swell/wind as originally drawn, but the yards are not parallel to the swell line. If I adjust the ship's direction slightly...

 

49652267158_3e292abcd0_b.jpg

 

...I get this. When I do the seascape, I will align the swell with the yards with the forward facing sails, and this should be a more realistic setting for the ship. I hope!

 

I need to get these sprayed now and painted up, then I can concentrate on doing some more to the main ship.

 

That is it for now, so huge thanks for the input I have received so far, it is all very much appreciated.

 

More soon, Ray

 

PS, I seriously need to get a micro blowtorch and learn how to solder with solder paint rather than a clunky soldering iron for this sort of thing!

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That's looking much better Ray. I know you're just mocking up at the moment, but when you come to fix your masts in place get the foremast aligned first how you want it (as this has all the yards as well as gaff and boom) and then set up the aft mast. You've got a bit more difference in angle with the gaff and boom on the aft mast than on the fore, you typically get this when the sail is let out further, so i'd set the boom of the aft mast out at a slightly greater angle than that of the fore mast. Otherwise, looking good, I like the slightly angled look of the ship on the base in the second photograph better than the fore and aft alignment of the first as well.

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Hi Ray,

 

Might I suggest increasing the wavelength of the swell.
 

To my eye longer swells look more convincing. My understanding is that short, sharp, high frequency waves are generally associated with beach environments and breaking waves (or about to break) in the near shore environment rather than the open ocean.

 

Your model so your choice of course!

 

Best regards

Steve

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14 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Hi Ray,

 

Might I suggest increasing the wavelength of the swell.
 

To my eye longer swells look more convincing. My understanding is that short, sharp, high frequency waves are generally associated with beach environments and breaking waves (or about to break) in the near shore environment rather than the open ocean.

 

Your model so your choice of course!

 

Best regards

Steve

 

Hello Mr Bandsaw, I had been thinking that too. The diagram was really to get across pictorially the way I wanted to set the scene, but any hints like yours are always highly appreciated. Keep them coming if I say I am going to do something but it would actually be a bit of a rickett!

 

18 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

That's looking much better Ray. I know you're just mocking up at the moment, but when you come to fix your masts in place get the foremast aligned first how you want it (as this has all the yards as well as gaff and boom) and then set up the aft mast. You've got a bit more difference in angle with the gaff and boom on the aft mast than on the fore, you typically get this when the sail is let out further, so i'd set the boom of the aft mast out at a slightly greater angle than that of the fore mast. Otherwise, looking good, I like the slightly angled look of the ship on the base in the second photograph better than the fore and aft alignment of the first as well.

Thanks for that advice too Dave, This is just the sort of information that comes in really handy for me. I think you are right with the ship positioning. I am trying to do a Combrig 1/700 HMS Gloucester in the 'in the Navy' Group Build here on good ol' BM, and I set that at a slight diagonal (with a longer swell Mr Bandsaw!) and the setting does have a little more 'life' to it.

 

Thanks again,

 

Ray

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  • 2 years later...
23 minutes ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Hello @Ray S

 

Just ‘cause I’ve taken 4 years to draw up a set of plans for Xantho doesn’t give you any excuse to have a break from this one… 🤣

 

Any progress?
 

 

 

Nope! I was hoping you had forgotten! It still sits on a jar at the back of my workbench, and still calls to me to get on with it, but I hit a bit of a buffer with it. Even the HMS Gloucester I mentioned in my last post has been put away incomplete.

 

If you like, I will do a deal: you get Xantho started, and I will re-start Knight Templar, and call upon the BM Massif to get me over the block. I really do want to finish it, but I had issues with the masts and the angles of the spars, but also with things like producing three (I think) identical winches. I do have a tendency to over-think problems, and that may well help me out.

 

There are so many other ships I would like to do too, after  joining Robert Wilson's merchant ship Facebook page.

 

Thanks for reminding me of Knight Templar (no, really!), I will get around to it.

 

Ray

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2 minutes ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

I know , It’s like watching ‘Star Wars’ up to:

 

’Lock S-foils in attack position’

 

and then the screen goes blank…🥲

 

 


I was thinking about that moving picture ‘Titanic’. I had to leave the jolly cinema before the end. Never did find out if it sank or not. 

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