researching for Sherman M4A1(76)

[cambridge]

so i've bought an Italeri 1:35 A4M1(76). after a first look the kit is clearly not up to modern day kit standards, it lacks lot of detail like it has no molding texture or serial numbers over it. but it seem fair for the price and it looks like something good can come out of it with some customizations wich to me is more fun than buying an extra detailed kit.

 

So, I wanted to ask a couple of questions. The kit model has: vertical suspensions VVSS and T51 tracks and T23  turret. 

 

I'm still undecided what model to produce. The kit has no references since it is the World of Tank kit ( it doesn't even say it's a M4A1(76), i know it cause i know the classic italeri kit, and it has shitty  decals so i'm free to pick whatever i want. My two picks at the moment are:

 

- a summer Normandy version with hedgerow cutters installed

- a winter Ardennes version with winter camouflage

 

actually as a general idea:

- my intention was to leave the front clear in order to let all the sherman details shine, so no sandbags or extra protection ( eventually just a couple of spare tracks ). 

- at the same time i was planning to add some milliput details in the back, adding some baggage, boxes, tents, tanks,  since the rear hull is quite boring. 

- the kit is provided with sideskirt but i'm not gonna use them, don't like their looks and in the pictures they are almost never there ( i bet they just made track maintenance more difficult and made mud stuck in them )

 

but before starting I wanted to be sure about a couple of things:

 

1st: the 76 variant wasn't introduced to battle until Operation Cobra in July 1944 wich was still in normandy region if i'm right:  Is it historically possible to see a 76 variant with an hedgerow cutters installed?

would they fit them on during combats and off when moving from one place to another? i've never seen a picture of a sherman with hedgerow cutters and fully packed 

 

2nd: the T51 tracks, when they were used? on what kind of surface and in what kind of period? they seem fitted for roads/paved ground, would they be seen on snowy/muddy terrain?

 

3th: the extra plates welded on the sides like the ones you can see here:

 

 

i can see lots of A4M1 hulls pictures with them on, like in this picture, but i can't see a single 76 variant with them on. Is there a reason? would be historically accurate or inaccurate to put them on a 76mm variant?

 

4th: on the ardennes: any pictures of winter camouflages? only one i can find is the following, wich would be good to me since it has no decals and i have no decals apart from the white stars.

Is it normal to paint winter camo over roundels like in the picture?

 

 

 

thank you very much in advance for your time to whoever will reply this.

Edited April 2, 2017 by cambridge

[JackG]

I'm sure Sarge will have the answers for you, but in the meantime a good read here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhino_tank

 

Thinking about  it non-combat, I'd say they would leave them in place for travel purpose - best place to store them is keep them attached  until the landscape deems them unnecessary.

 

regards,

Jack

[Bullbasket]

In addition to what I wrote on your WIP thread, I'll add a bit more. I'll start off by saying that I'm no expert and if I get it wrong, someone will hopefully correct me. If you want to do an M4A1 (76) in NW Europe then it will have to be a US army tank. Brit/Commonwealth forces only used them in Italy as they had the Fireflys  for NWE. The skirts were removed as they became clogged with mud, but having said that, there are many photos around of big hatch Shermans with either full skirts or partial. The British quite often used to fix them upside down on the rear of the tank to hold stowage in place.

The photo you've posted of a Sherman with applique armour welded to the sides is a small hatch "dry" tank. That is, the ammo was just stored around the tank and when hit could explode very easily. The applique armour was welded in place where the ammo was stored. Big hatch Shermans were known as "wet". The ammo was stored within liquid containers so that if the tank was hit, there was less likelihood of there being a fire or explosion, so there was no need for the applique.

The answer to your camouflage question is yes. In fact some were completely covered in white and it would wear away quite quickly.

Rubber chevron tracks were used on Shermans right from the start. They were found to slip badly in muddy or icy terrain so that's when the T49 double cleat and the metal chevron tracks started to come into use.

With regards to the hedgerow cutters, I don't recall seeing a 76mm Sherman with one fitted, although I could quite easily be wrong. Bear in mind though that there was more than one type of cutter, the Cullen cutter being one. 

HTH's.

 

John.

[Graham Boak]

The other point you don't mention is which hull it is.  The winter photo shows the later, steeper, hull front.  Is this what comes in the kit?

[Bullbasket]

The one in the winter photo is an M4A3 (76). The kit is an M4A1.

 

John.

[cambridge]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The other point you don't mention is which hull it is.  The winter photo shows the later, steeper, hull front.  Is this what comes in the kit?

 

the hull is a M4a1 is right there in the title. the winter camo, considering it looks hand made right on the spot and not factory applied is just as a reference to follow, i don't think it would have made much difference to those who painted it what hull they were painting it on. I've seen "all white shermans" but that is a bit boring.

 As i said i'm not planning to make a particular Sherman tank like "cobra king" or "fury"  i'm just trying to make a general sherman 76 that still would be historically accurate. 

 

and thank bullbasket for the advices

Edited April 3, 2017 by cambridge

[Graham Boak]

I think, though I can't be sure without digging out some references, that there were M4A1 with the early hull and also with the steeper front.  The designation tells you the engine not the design details that change during production.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Graham Boak

[Bullbasket]

54 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I think, though I can't be sure without digging out some references, that there were M4A1 with the early hull and also with the steeper front.  The designation tells you the engine not the design details that change during production.

Edited 48 minutes ago by Graham Boak

You'll have to run that one past me again as I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

John.

[Graham Boak]

I mean that the designation (M4A, M4A1, M4A2, M4A3....) does not fully define the shape of the hull.  There were a number of changes introduced during the production run of each variant.  The obvious ones are the suspensions and turrets, but there were also changes introduced on the hull.  These were less obvious on the M4A1 than the other variants, because of the blended nature of the shape, but fall into two basic shapes - the early "small hatch" and the later "large hatch".  As this was the one usually equipped with the T23 turret, I suspect this is the one the kit provides.  There were other differences - I have an excellent reference called Son of Sherman Vol.1 which goes into what I suspect may be far too much detail.  At least for me.

[AgentG]

M4, M4A2, M4A3, are all welded hull Sherman's. In this case the M4 is a gasoline radial engined tank, the A2 has twin GM diesels and the A3, a Ford gasoline V8. 

M4A1 is always used to designate a cast hull Sherman, regardless of engine. That said, the radial engine was, as far as I remember, the only engine used in the M4A1.

All Shermans, whether cast or welded hull, had small hatch and large hatch versions. The large hatch, 47 degree glacis, is synonymous with wet ammo stowage, the small hatch, 56 degree glacis, dry stowage.

Small hatch hulls were the first produced with the 56 degree glacis.

Of course never say never with Sherman facts. There were diesel engined, 75mm gunned, large hatch M4A2's with dry stowage sent to Russia.  Lots of photos exist and they show the applique armor plates clearly.

Then, there were small hatch M4A3's, with gasoline engines, used by the USMC on Okinawa. These had dry stowage and applique plates on a 56 degree welded hull.

Sherman's are a never ending source of entertainment and bewilderment. 

 

 G

[GrzeM]

Hi! Check this topic, it is in Polish, but there are many useful pictures:

Sherman M4A1 (76) build on Polish Forum