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BIG X

HELP! Hurricane & BF109E Experts - Identification Help

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This fantastic kit has just fallen onto my workbench & the artwork & "storyline" is as always - very compelling...

a05127reviewbg_1.jpg

 

I can find loads of info about the Hurricane - but nothing about this particular BF109E - does anyone have any extra information - unit / pilot etc...

Any help would be most appreciated.

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It is a cracking kit,I've build four of them,Wing Commander Mackenzie attacked a number of 109's using his wingtip at the very end of the engagement,

there may be info out on the unit these aircraft belonged too I,ve had a look but can't find any mention although this action is well known.

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/MackenzieKW.htm

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I'll have a look through my copies of Luftwaffe Crash Archive. Should be some information in there.

 

Best regards;
Steve

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Bf-109E of Lt. Erich Meyer of JG51. Meyer was rescued and became a P.o.W.

 

The Messerchmitt was found on the sea-bed in the 1970s, most of the wreck recovered - the wings are on display at Hawkinge.

 

A bit more info here:

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?62807-Complete-Me109-(well-nearly)-recovered-in-1976-where-is-it-now

 

Simon

Edited by Simon
typo

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6 minutes ago, stevej60 said:

It is a cracking kit,I've build four of them,Wing Commander Mackenzie attacked a number of 109's using his wingtip at the very end of the engagement,

there may be info out on the unit these aircraft belonged too I,ve had a look but can't find any mention although this action is well known.

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/MackenzieKW.htm

 

Hey Steve I know what you mean - I have been googling all morning - There is tons of info on the Hurricane / pilot etc - but nothing about the poor beggar in the 109 :)

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5 minutes ago, fightersweep said:

I'll have a look through my copies of Luftwaffe Crash Archive. Should be some information in there.

 

Best regards;
Steve

Thanks Steve - anything would be nice - even if just a unit :)

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I did wonder if it was the "Hawkinge" Messerschmitt, but I wanted to check first.

 

If you go over to Amazon, you can pick up a copy of "The Reluctant Messerschmitt". It's all about the recovery in 1976 and back story.

 

Best regards;
Steve

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Had a quick look through my wee library and while I cant find anything on the 109 I found a photo of PO Ken MacKenzie DFC as was then at page 294 of Philip Saraks book "The Few".  Can send over a scan if you want.

 

Also there is am mention of the incident in detail in Richard Hough & Denis Richards book on the Battle.  Again I can send over a scan if you want.

 

Good find Simon !

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Simon said:

Bf-109E of Lt. Erich Meyer of JG51. Meyer was rescued and became a P.o.W.

 

The Messerchmitt was found on the sea-bed in the 1970s, most of the wreck recovered - the wings are on display at Hawkinge.

 

A bit more info here:

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?62807-Complete-Me109-(well-nearly)-recovered-in-1976-where-is-it-now

 

Simon

Wow Simon - that was fast - thanks a million :)  I will have to google Erich Meyer & JG51 - there maybe a "dogfight double" coming on - if I can find the right camo / badge / markings :clap2:

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4 minutes ago, fightersweep said:

I did wonder if it was the "Hawkinge" Messerschmitt, but I wanted to check first.

 

If you go over to Amazon, you can pick up a copy of "The Reluctant Messerschmitt". It's all about the recovery in 1976 and back story.

 

Best regards;
Steve

That sounds interesting - have a few bob in credit on amazon - will take a look - thanks.

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7 minutes ago, JohnT said:

Had a quick look through my wee library and while I cant find anything on the 109 I found a photo of PO Ken MacKenzie DFC as was then at page 294 of Philip Saraks book "The Few".  Can send over a scan if you want.

 

Also there is am mention of the incident in detail in Richard Hough & Denis Richards book on the Battle.  Again I can send over a scan if you want.

 

Good find Simon !

 

 

 

Hi John - any info such as scans would be very interesting to look at - can that be done via a pm on here? or do I need to pm you an email address?

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4 minutes ago, JohnT said:

pm on the way

Wow Thanks - I love your RJ Mitchell quote too - most appropriate :lol:

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If you look on page 168 of this link, there is a photo of Erich Meyer with Werner and Victor Moelders. Victor Moelders was shot down the same day as Erich Meyer. He was shot down by Sgt Eric Wright of 605 Squadron. I used to have both of their signatures on a first day cover once upon a time!

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_X0NJgnvas4C&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=Erich+Meyer+JG51&source=bl&ots=g4ZLDVDDOG&sig=dKodk_YZVMYRL65huEOrgW6gWTU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3572l0oXTAhVqDMAKHSY5DL8Q6AEINzAH#v=onepage&q=Erich Meyer JG51&f=false

 

Best regards;

Steve

Edited by fightersweep

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Thanks to the information supplied above - I have just found this - thanks to some more googling...

 

Meyer, Erich - Lt

Born - 25th February 1918

Score - 6

Units - 1/JG-51 (8/40), 2/JG-51 (9/40 Channel)

Aircraft - Bf 109E-4 Werk 4853 (lost 10/7/40)

 

Notes - POW 7 October, 1940 after being shot down by S/L Hogan of RAF No. 501 Sq, crashing south of Sandgate. His first victory, a Hurricane near Canterbury on 18 August, 1940. His 2nd, a Spitfire on 20 August, 1940, no location. His 3rd, another Hurricane in the Canterbury area on 2 September, 1940. His 4th, a Spitfire over England on 4 September, 1940. His 5th, a Spitfire near London on 15 September, 1940. His 6th, a Hurricane on 27 September, 1940, no location. Deceased 6 December, 2003.

 

Entry 64 - here - http://www.aircrewremembered.com/KrackerDatabase/?q=meyer

 

The obvious differences are the term "shot down" & the mention of S/L Hogan.  Mind you, if I were going down into the channel - would I notice the loss of my tail & who had done it...

 

The question now is - with the extra detail of 2/JG-51 & Bf 109E-4 Werk 4853 - what would the aircraft have looked like????

     

 

 

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Here's a bit more on Meyer taken from his interrogation report.

 

7/10/40  Bf 109 2./JG 51 In the sea, 6 miles south of Sandgate at 1358 hrs. Lt. Erich Meyer, EK I, unwounded.  Started at 1300 hrs escorting about 6 Bf 109 bombers attacking oil tanks at London Docks.  This aircraft which had been marked 11 had on the previous day had the number painted out as a new number 11 had just been delivered and this aircraft was to become 12.  One the way to the objective, they saw a squadron of Spitfires flying at the same height about 5-6000 yards away.  These, however, ignored them.  The escort consisted of about two Staffeln and they were over Maidstone on the return journey flying at 19,000 feet when they encountered a squadron of Spitfires.  This aircraft was shot through the radiator and the engine temperature rose so the pilot had to come down in the sea.  He got into his rubber dinghy and was sighted by a Lysander and after two hours in the water was picked up by an MTB.  The pilot stated that the whole Gruppe was at a regular aerodrome in the Calais-Boulogne area.  He had definitely not been at St. Omer.

 

By the wording of this report it suggests that it carried no number at the time of its loss.

Anyway, hope this is of some use to you.

Cheers

Dave

Edited by tango98
spacing

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As to how the aircraft looked I would suggest similar to how it appears on the box art; 71/02 splinter on the upper surfaces with 65 blue on the under surfaces and fuselage sides and no winkel > ahead of the fuselage cross. Interestingly, a photo of Mölders' 109 'Black 1' brought down during the same sortie shows the fuselage carried a medium density mottle on the fuselage sides, likely in a combination of 02 and 71. It is also a distinct possibility that Meyer's aircraft carried a similar pattern of mottling on the fuselage and the yellow  tactical markings like other 109s of the period but to which areas of the airframe is anyones guess but would most likely be similar to that carried by other aircraft of the Staffel during this period. A search for photos of JG 51 109s from the September/October period would, I believe, be a good indicator.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

Cheers

Dave

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48 minutes ago, tango98 said:

Here's a bit more on Meyer taken from his interrogation report.

 

7/10/40  Bf 109 2./JG 51 In the sea, 6 miles south of Sandgate at 1358 hrs. Lt. Erich Meyer, EK I, unwounded.  Started at 1300 hrs escorting about 6 Bf 109 bombers attacking oil tanks at London Docks.  This aircraft which had been marked 11 had on the previous day had the number painted out as a new number 11 had just been delivered and this aircraft was to become 12.  One the way to the objective, they saw a squadron of Spitfires flying at the same height about 5-6000 yards away.  These, however, ignored them.  The escort consisted of about two Staffeln and they were over Maidstone on the return journey flying at 19,000 feet when they encountered a squadron of Spitfires.  This aircraft was shot through the radiator and the engine temperature rose so the pilot had to come down in the sea.  He got into his rubber dinghy and was sighted by a Lysander and after two hours in the water was picked up by an MTB.  The pilot stated that the whole Gruppe was at a regular aerodrome in the Calais-Boulogne area.  He had definitely not been at St. Omer.

 

By the wording of this report it suggests that it carried no number at the time of its loss.

Anyway, hope this is of some use to you.

Cheers

Dave

 

7 minutes ago, tango98 said:

As to how the aircraft looked I would suggest similar to how it appears on the box art; 71/02 splinter on the upper surfaces with 65 blue on the under surfaces and fuselage sides and no winkel > ahead of the fuselage cross. Interestingly, a photo of Mölders' 109 'Black 1' brought down during the same sortie shows the fuselage carried a medium density mottle on the fuselage sides, likely in a combination of 02 and 71. It is also a distinct possibility that Meyer's aircraft carried a similar pattern of mottling on the fuselage and the yellow  tactical markings like other 109s of the period but to which areas of the airframe is anyones guess but would most likely be similar to that carried by other aircraft of the Staffel during this period. A search for photos of JG 51 109s from the September/October period would, I believe, be a good indicator.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

Cheers

Dave

Sorry you can't be of more help Dave? - that is amazing information :clap2:

We now know it looked very similar to Mölders' 109 'Black 1'  - but with the number 11 painted out - that is brilliant!!!

The only problem now is...

 

when they encountered a squadron of Spitfires.  This aircraft was shot through the radiator and the engine temperature rose so the pilot had to come down in the sea. :doh:

 

Thank you for this info - I am going to surmise that Meyer came under multiple attacks - first from spits & then from the Hurricanes of 501 sqn.  Sandgate is right next door to Folkstone so that is a common link & as no one can prove otherwise I assume MacKenzie took Meyers tail off after Sqn/Ldr Hogan had had a pop - It works for me.

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"..... first from spits & then from the Hurricanes of 501 sqn"  Quite possibly or it could be a case of 'Spitfire snobbery' on the part of Meyer for as we know, many German aircrew often denied being brought down by a Hurricane even when they clearly were!

Anyway, good luck with your project; I look forward to seeing it completed.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

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1 minute ago, tango98 said:

"..... first from spits & then from the Hurricanes of 501 sqn"  Quite possibly or it could be a case of 'Spitfire snobbery' on the part of Meyer for as we know, many German aircrew often denied being brought down by a Hurricane even when they clearly were!

Anyway, good luck with your project; I look forward to seeing it completed.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

Ah Yes - "Spitfire snobbery" indeed - I like it Dave! :clap2:

 

Just found this...

Mölders, Victor - Oblt

Bf 109E-4/B Werk # 4103 "Black 1" (lost 10/7/40)

POW 7 October, 1940 after a dogfight with Hurricanes over the southern coast of England. He force landed his Jabo Bf 109E at Winchelsea.

 

Can't find a picture though...

 

Winchelsea is 33 miles by road or 23 miles as the crow flies from Folkestone & obviously part of the same dogfight as Meyer / Mackenzie.

 

Anyone got a picture???

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Is this the picture you were referring to Dave?

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109E3-2.JG51-Black-1-Vi

 

It is looking pretty butchered here - but I can see the mottling you described.

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Yes, that's the one.

Just for added interest, here's the substance of Mölders' interrogation.

 

7/10/40  Bf 109 code 1+, yellow nose and tail, W.Nr 4103, Oblt. Viktor Mölders.  Doleham Farm, Guestling 1100 hrs.  Was flying at 22,000 feet when he was attacked by several Spitfires and the radiator was hit.  He tried to get back over the Channel but the engine overheated badly and he made a forced landing with the aircraft in fairly good condition.  Had fought through the Polish campaign and had also been in Norway and Holland.  He had made about 20 war flights against this country and has EK I .  Morale good. A good type of regular officer. Unwounded.  Further report dated 14/10/40 states he is the brother of the famous Major  Mölders and that he was Staffelkap of 2. Staffel in his brother's JG 51 and fears for his brothers safety.  His brother had apparently had a narrow escape a few days previously when his oxygen apparatus became disconnected at high altitude.  Major Mölders is now credited with 42 victories in the present war and his brother hung his head in shame when he confessed to only seven. 

 

By yellow tail it would mean yellow rudder.

 

Cheers

Dave

Edited by tango98

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Hey Dave - where do you get this information - it is priceless!!!

I had read he was Werner's brother...

Brilliant - I see he was attacked by "spitfires" too - c'mon you Hurricanes!!!

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Well at lunchtime today I never thought this would turn into such an interesting thread - thanks everyone - What a cool way to spend a Sunday - you are all amazing...

stevej60

fightersweep

Simon

JohnT

tango98

 

What a bunch of stars & what a great forum - thanks guys!!!

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