Time to ditch the wingy things and armour up! First AFV WIP - Academy M3 Grant 1:35

[Kingsman]

Whatever did we do before Little Plastic Spring Clamps came long?  

 

It may be a bit late now, but have you considered a Grant Diesel back end conversion?  There were some in the desert but I have no idea which units had them.  M4A2-style engine deck grilled doors, deeper rear hull plate and M4A2 style exhaust outlets (no deflector).  Same GM6-71 engine setup as M3A3, M3A5 & M4A2.  I don't think any Grants got the Guiberson radial diesel: some M3's did because of Continental shortages.  

 

Here's a rear view of one (at IWM?  Monty's own tank?).  An M3A5-based Grant: riveted hull, diesel engine.  A large red "D" was apparently usually painted on the hull rear plate.

 

Here's a drawing of the deck (with someone's not-very-good attempt at modelling it!)

[clive_t]

Thanks for those photos Mr Abteilung (can I call you Das? )

 

Oddly enough I had been contemplating modelling the engine compartment doors in the open position, which of course necessitates knowing what the engine would have looked like. It was during a search for appropriate pics online that I found out about the existence of diesel versions. Unfortunately when I cross checked against the 3RTR regimental diary for the months July/Aug/Sep 1942, there's no specific reference to 'marques' of Grants, or any other type of tank they took on. I think that, added to my meagre modelling capabilities, would probably decide me against the idea.

 

It is however an interesting notion that suitably capable (or at any rate more adventurous) people might seriously consider. Thanks for sharing the idea, much appreciated

[clive_t]

Something of a 'bits 'n' pieces' progress today. The clamps that surrounded the floorplate and all its attached parts were removed, and the results were encouraging. Specifically, they held together! A quick dry fit of the floorplate with the lower hull was similarly promising:

 

 

Prior to siting the driver seat in its position on top of the transmission (!) I had an idea to make it a little more lived-in. Part of that was to introduce some creases in it, by using some tissue paper soaked with dilute PVA. The natural drying process introduces minute wrinkles in the surface, The same trick was used for the machine-gunner's (?) seat to the driver's left:

 

 

With that, I thought I'd make a start on the Eduard PE add-ons. The rear engine compartment door was my opening gambit; not too complicated, it just took a while with fitting the fiddly bolt heads. I won't bore you with a pic of that! However, there were bigger fish to fry - the front fenders require a fair bit of bending, and particularly a curved bend. The right fender needed a section to be chopped off the kit part, and the PE bit added in. In the end, it went better than I expected:

 

 

Another quick dry fit:

 

 

To be honest I'd been putting it off for a while as I was concerned that I'd make a mess of the bending of the brass parts, but I ended up enjoying it very much. Still tons of it to add though

 

Thanks for watching!

 

 

[Kingsman]

You can call me Peter.

 

Diesel Grants were called "Grant Diesel", unsurprisingly.  Technically they were all "Grant I" regardless of engine.  I'm not sure that unit records routinely discriminated between petrol and diesel, although I recall seeing a reference that at least one RAOC depot did at the time of issue. Very few in-service pictures of the back end seem to exist, and that's the only way of telling.  No-one seems sure how many Diesels were actually built out of the 1,685 Grants purchased.  Grant numbers don't appear in Hunnicutt's tables.  M3A5's were only built between Jan and Dec 42, and only by Baldwin - who had the largest (685) of the cash and carry Grant contracts.

 

Just to confuse the issue (like it needs any more confusing!) the Grant II was actually a standard diesel Lee, M3A5 riveted hull.  We agreed to take some of these as a substitute because Grant turret production could not keep pace with hulls.  Same with the diesel Grant Is: diesel hulls were available.  We did later have some lend-lease Lees too, designated as Lee Mks I - VI, but it seems that the 185 lend-lease M3A5 were still designated Grant II.   

 

So:

• the M3A5 riveted hull diesel was a Grant II but the M3A3 welded hull diesel was a Lee V;
• all Grant IIs were diesels whereas most Grant Is were petrol;
• at least 11% of total "Grants" were diesels;
• the actual number of Grant I Diesels is unclear/unknown.

Thoroughly confusing!!  But at least you can be sure that if you see a picture of a British Lee in N Africa it will almost certainly be a diesel.

 

When I said "no deflector" on the diesel exhaust I meant not the slatted type used on some M4A2.  There was a simple sheet metal deflector, missing from the picture above.  This was more for the cooling fan exhaust than the engine, as the engine exhaust stubs already pointed rearwards.

 

The GM twin diesel engine actually proved far more reliable in the desert than the Continental petrol radial, partly through being a truck engine rather than an aero engine and partly because if one of the engines did fail the other would still keep the vehicle going, if slowly.  The Continental was very susceptible to damage by dust and, being somewhat underpowered anyway with inferior low-revs torque, the heavy going of sandy desert terrain soon burned them out.  Not helped by our using the wrong grade of lubricating oil and failing to always observe the need to hand-crank the engine before starting to distribute the oil collected in the lower cylinders.  The engine situation was so critical at one point that an emergency transatlantic airlift of spare engines had to be organised.

 

On a colour note, you have parts of the interior as silver.  UK-built vehicles of the period were painted silver inside, but US vehicles were white inside - including the gearbox and driveshaft cover. The Bovington Grant has a white interior and other M3 interiors pics all seem to be white.  Sorry.

[Cromwell]

Bit by bit she'll get there

is there much flash to clean up?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Cromwell

[clive_t]

7 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

You can call me Peter.

 

Diesel Grants were called "Grant Diesel", unsurprisingly.  Technically they were all "Grant I" regardless of engine.  I'm not sure that unit records routinely discriminated between petrol and diesel, although I recall seeing a reference that at least one RAOC depot did at the time of issue. Very few in-service pictures of the back end seem to exist, and that's the only way of telling.  No-one seems sure how many Diesels were actually built out of the 1,685 Grants purchased.  Grant numbers don't appear in Hunnicutt's tables.  M3A5's were only built between Jan and Dec 42, and only by Baldwin - who had the largest (685) of the cash and carry Grant contracts.

 

Just to confuse the issue (like it needs any more confusing!) the Grant II was actually a standard diesel Lee, M3A5 riveted hull.  We agreed to take some of these as a substitute because Grant turret production could not keep pace with hulls.  Same with the diesel Grant Is: diesel hulls were available.  We did later have some lend-lease Lees too, designated as Lee Mks I - VI, but it seems that the 185 lend-lease M3A5 were still designated Grant II.   

 

So:

• the M3A5 riveted hull diesel was a Grant II but the M3A3 welded hull diesel was a Lee V;
• all Grant IIs were diesels whereas most Grant Is were petrol;
• at least 11% of total "Grants" were diesels;
• the actual number of Grant I Diesels is unclear/unknown.

Thoroughly confusing!!  But at least you can be sure that if you see a picture of a British Lee in N Africa it will almost certainly be a diesel.

 

When I said "no deflector" on the diesel exhaust I meant not the slatted type used on some M4A2.  There was a simple sheet metal deflector, missing from the picture above.  This was more for the cooling fan exhaust than the engine, as the engine exhaust stubs already pointed rearwards.

 

The GM twin diesel engine actually proved far more reliable in the desert than the Continental petrol radial, partly through being a truck engine rather than an aero engine and partly because if one of the engines did fail the other would still keep the vehicle going, if slowly.  The Continental was very susceptible to damage by dust and, being somewhat underpowered anyway with inferior low-revs torque, the heavy going of sandy desert terrain soon burned them out.  Not helped by our using the wrong grade of lubricating oil and failing to always observe the need to hand-crank the engine before starting to distribute the oil collected in the lower cylinders.  The engine situation was so critical at one point that an emergency transatlantic airlift of spare engines had to be organised.

 

On a colour note, you have parts of the interior as silver.  UK-built vehicles of the period were painted silver inside, but US vehicles were white inside - including the gearbox and driveshaft cover. The Bovington Grant has a white interior and other M3 interiors pics all seem to be white.  Sorry.

 

Thanks Peter!

 

Most interesting, although as you say trying to determine which particular model/variant was operating when and where is something that I am unlikely to ever determine for sure. I did find a couple of 3-quarter rear photos, on the web, which I have now saved to my Pinterest gallery for reference material for this little project.

 

I found a couple of You-Tube clips by searching for 'grant tank interior', which did some interesting walk-arounds both outside and inside of a preserved Grant in Australia. One thing the guy mentioned was the front facing machine gun ports were more often than not closed over as the usefulness of fixed machine guns was limited by the overriding need to point the 75mm gun at presumably a higher priority target. They did however retain the 30-cal machine guns inside, and used them where possible as normal, tripod-mounted MGs. It did get me to thinking, though, why the need for a machine gunner's position, and therefore a man to sit there, in that case? I am wondering if that's the reason there are only 5 crew figures supplied with the kit.

 

I think the interior detailing of the engine is something beyond me, however, so I think I will just model the doors closed.

 

As for the cabin interior, yes I knew that it was painted white, and I will be doing that - however, I was going to deliberately over-paint it so that some of the metallic colour showed in places, to indicate scuffs and scratches from people clambering around in army boots.That's the theory anyway, and in any case how much of it will be visible, even with all the hatches open, remains to be seen.

 

2 hours ago, Cromwell said:

Bit by bit she'll get there

is there much flash to clean up?

 

Thanks, yes it's coming along slowly. I've found that although there is some, flash has not been as much of a problem as pin marks, some of which are highly visible so need filling. Quite a few seam lines to remove too. The kit has thus far gone together quite well, aside from the warping of some of the larger, flatter parts (floorplate, top of upper hull). I may well end up with some fit issues when I come to put the various sub-assemblies together - that will more than likely be attributable to my my own ineptitude, but I am hoping that some filler will spare my blushes in this respect when the time comes.

 

Thanks both for your comments, much appreciated.

 

[Kingsman]

The front fixed guns were operated by the driver: no gunner.  With them dismounted, there would have been no other stowage for them internally so that seems a bit odd.  A tripod for dismount use was part of the official CES but not always carried. Official location was on the right trackguard under the main gun. I believe I've seem some Grants with a Browning mounted on the cupola for AA.  Five crew would be right: driver, hull gunner and loader, turret gunner and commander

 

I had the same idea for the interior.  Bit of hairspray, coat of white and scrub/chip away.  Then some oil and sandy dust.

 

I bet you didn't know that Grants ended up firing German shells?  The US HE shell fuze was disappointing, only working reliably at 90 degree impact on a hard surface.  The French fuse was better: we found some in Syria but not enough.  The US round was an evolution of the French 75 anyway.  Then some bright spark realised that the far superior German shell for the long 75mm KwK could be adapted to fit the US cartridge case with the driving band turned down.  As we'd captured about 90,000 rounds there were plenty to go round.  So we did.  That allowed gunners to "graze" the round off ground in front of infantry or anti-tank guns to give an airburst effect.  The fuze functioned at almost any angle of strike.

[Bullbasket]

Clive, take a look at this over on PMMS. http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/academy/acd13212rivet.htm

It's a first class explanation of the problems with the rivets on the Academy kit and how to fix them without a great deal of work.

John.

[clive_t]

9 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

The front fixed guns were operated by the driver: no gunner.  With them dismounted, there would have been no other stowage for them internally so that seems a bit odd.  A tripod for dismount use was part of the official CES but not always carried. Official location was on the right trackguard under the main gun. I believe I've seem some Grants with a Browning mounted on the cupola for AA.  Five crew would be right: driver, hull gunner and loader, turret gunner and commander

 

I had the same idea for the interior.  Bit of hairspray, coat of white and scrub/chip away.  Then some oil and sandy dust.

 

I bet you didn't know that Grants ended up firing German shells?  The US HE shell fuze was disappointing, only working reliably at 90 degree impact on a hard surface.  The French fuse was better: we found some in Syria but not enough.  The US round was an evolution of the French 75 anyway.  Then some bright spark realised that the far superior German shell for the long 75mm KwK could be adapted to fit the US cartridge case with the driving band turned down.  As we'd captured about 90,000 rounds there were plenty to go round.  So we did.  That allowed gunners to "graze" the round off ground in front of infantry or anti-tank guns to give an airburst effect.  The fuze functioned at almost any angle of strike.

Thanks again, Peter, very interesting.

 

9 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Clive, take a look at this over on PMMS. http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/academy/acd13212rivet.htm

It's a first class explanation of the problems with the rivets on the Academy kit and how to fix them without a great deal of work.

John.

Thanks John, that's a pretty comprehensive web page there. I need to work out how best to make my own rivets!

 

Not much progress today, I made a a bit of progress on the rear of the tank hull. The dry fitting of the top of the hull betrays what will more than likely be a few gaps to be filled:

 

 

The only other thing I managed was to try and apply some white to the metallic paint of the floorplate - I mistakenly did so without first applying any kind of protective layer. Worst still, my decision to 'stipple' the white paint ended up with less than the desired effect:

 

 

I will have a go at applying some more over the top of what I already have, but I am facing the prospect of repainting in silver or similar and effectively starting again

 

Thanks again for your very helpful comments.

 

 

[Cromwell]

Love this site, its like mini history lessons plus you get loads of helpful hints, ideas and tips on how to do stuff BTW love your build so far

[Bullbasket]

Clive, I wouldn't worry too much about the interior painting as once it's finished, not much can be seen. That's why when I built mine, I left all of the interior out.

With regards to making rivets. If your budget can stretch to it, Waldron make a punch and die set. I think Hannants amongst others carry them. I bought mine several years ago and it's been a real boon. Alternatively, Historex do one which is a lot cheaper. There are others available. There's a Hungarian company that does a whole range of modelling aids named RP Toolz. I think that they do one as well.

HTH's.

 

John.

[clive_t]

3 hours ago, Cromwell said:

Love this site, its like mini history lessons plus you get loads of helpful hints, ideas and tips on how to do stuff BTW love your build so far

 

Totally agree there  and thanks for the most kind comments.

 

3 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Clive, I wouldn't worry too much about the interior painting as once it's finished, not much can be seen. That's why when I built mine, I left all of the interior out.

With regards to making rivets. If your budget can stretch to it, Waldron make a punch and die set. I think Hannants amongst others carry them. I bought mine several years ago and it's been a real boon. Alternatively, Historex do one which is a lot cheaper. There are others available. There's a Hungarian company that does a whole range of modelling aids named RP Toolz. I think that they do one as well.

HTH's.

 

John.

Thanks John I will look into that. It's a fine line I am treading here with interior detail; the shame of it is that the moulding quality of the detail on the supplied parts is very good, it almost feels wrong not to at least paint it up.

[Kingsman]

I can recommend Grandt Line injection plastic rivets, but they're very hard to find in the UK now. I used to get mine from Stuart Binns at SB Models but he's closed.  Historex carry them but their selection is p*** poor. You can buy direct from Grandt Line in the US at http://www.grandtline.com.  They do domes and rivets in various sizes.  You'd get half a dozen sprues like below for about $3.50, more like £4 in the UK.  More rivets per sprue in smaller sizes.  The picture is about twice life size.  The technique is to drill holes, place a drop of solvent and insert the rivet stem - just like real life.  Being styrene and in a hole there's no problem with adhesion and the stems make them a cinch to pick and place.  As no-one in the UK seems to do them reliably now, I'm considering bringing some in direct.

 

 

Masterclub do an awful lot of different rivets, but they're not cheap.  Best source is here: https://models-hobby.com/ . Yes, in Russia.  The people behind Live Resin and Tahk, and the best source for those ranges too.  I do mourn the end of Tahk's weapons and accessories.  I've used this store several times and found them completely reliable, the current lack of Detente notwithstanding ......

 

Archer do resin rivets as decals, but I worry about their longevity.  Slicing plastic rivet and bolt heads off sheets, like the Meng products, always seems a fool's errand to me.  I can never get them flat or a consistent thickness.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Das Abteilung
revised information

[clive_t]

Thanks Peter, for another useful avenue to explore. Much appreciated, sir.

[clive_t]

Some nominal progress again today: the floorplate had another round of stippling with white, as did the rest of the lower hull interior - looking a little better, I think. Also, both front fenders (or part of them at least) are now formed, although some additional bits and pieces have yet to be added. In the meantime, another quick dry fit to see how it all looks:

 

[Kingsman]

When I said that Grandt Line did "domes and rivets" I meant they do domed and conical rivets.  That brain-finger thing.  Conical ones shown.  And a selection of bolt heads, wing nuts, eyebolts etc.  In case it doesn't show, I just love them.  Wish they were easier to get

[clive_t]

5 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

When I said that Grandt Line did "domes and rivets" I meant they do domed and conical rivets.  That brain-finger thing.  Conical ones shown.  And a selection of bolt heads, wing nuts, eyebolts etc.  In case it doesn't show, I just love them.  Wish they were easier to get

Peter, I think I would like to try these too, the little stalks alone make them a standout choice for relative ease of use. As you say, though, if only they were more readily available

 

I had an idea about drilling a small hole (to match the size of the rivet) in some scrap brass sheet, and pressing the melted end of a sprue into it to see if that would give me something that could pass for a domed rivet. Can't hurt to try, I guess.

[Kingsman]

As you say, couldn't hurt. Essentially that's what a lot of the rivet and nut makers are: just moulds for hot sprue.  Far too many failures for me.

 

There's always the tried and trusted heating plastic rod against a candle flame.  Don't you just hanker for those old days and the smell of molten plastic .....?  The problem there was - and is - consistency.  I did a lot of Warhammer Ork conversions a few years ago.  Bolts and rivets to the max!.  I got through many packs of Grandt Line.  For some I used cut down Peco model railway track pins, but I don't think they'd work in this universe.  For a start the heads are not flat-bottomed so they don't sit flush without a countersink.  And they're quite big: 50mm in 1/35.  More like battleship rivets.

 

Another idea I found in a Warhammer book is to use the balls from water filter cartridges: Brita or similar.  If you have one of these you get about a zillion free balls every time you change the cartridge.  Brita ones seem to be in several sizes, which is handy - ignoring the chunks of charcoal.  The idea with these is to drill a small dimple instead of a hole, drop of liquid poly and place the ball.  Spearing them with a new scalpel blade tip is best: you'll never pick them up with tweezers and never get them off a sticky stick thing.  Liquid poly seems to hold them, whatever they're made of.

 

I haven't tried the Masterclub products, principally because they didn't seem to be good value compared to Grandt Line, although there is a much wider choice.

 

I'm waiting for a contact response from Grandt Line.  All of the links about foreign purchases and agents on their site seemed to be broken the other day, unless it was just net congestion.

[clive_t]

That's a thought, we have access to Brita cartridges so I will give that a go, thanks Peter 

[clive_t]

A bit more progress this afternoon. I have some 'Games Workshop' sepia wash, so gave that a go on the hull interior to tone down the white a little, and to suggest a settling of desert dust etc:

 

 

A closer look at the transmission with the driver's seat directly over it:

 

 

This is the position in the real thing that my father would have occupied - a sobering thought indeed.

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, clive_t said:

a sobering thought indeed.

How right you are.

Good progress Clive. I like the upholstery.

 

John.

[clive_t]

Thanks John, amazing what you can do with a small square of tissue paper and some dilute PVA

 

So, more progress today. Some more PE added to the rear of the upper hull:

 

 

I also drilled out the rear 'pistol slit' and made an actual slot where a slot should be.

 

The rest of the upper hull was added:

 

 

Yet another dry fit, this time we can do the upper and lower hulls :

 

 

 

Looks OK - some filler will be needed, but then I expected that. So now we can get the floorplate fixed in place inside the lower hull:

 

 

As well as building, I made some modest preparations for the rest of the project - I bought a 10x8 wooden photo frame which will eventually be the diorama base. I also ordered some Preiser 'Gauge 1' figures (railway modeller speak for "roughly 1:32 scale" - large scale model railways being my other hobby); these will be used along with the figures supplied with the Academy kit to come up with the desired results - photos of which will be in separate threads when I get round to it.

 

Thanks for watching, any and all comments welcome of course!

 

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, clive_t said:

Thanks John, amazing what you can do with a small square of tissue paper and some dilute PVA

 

Speaking of which, are you going to put a dust cover around the 75mm?

 

John.

[clive_t]

Just now, Bullbasket said:

 

Speaking of which, are you going to put a dust cover around the 75mm?

 

John.

Absolutely! I'll probably use the same method too.

[Kingsman]

Continuing the riveting saga of rivets, my attempts to contact Grandt Line have gone unanswered.  Very strangely, their website has just become blank grey pages for the last few days.  Could they have folded?  I found a note on a US model railroad site to say that the founder had passed away and his children had taken over, but it isn't dated.  Lots of US Model railroad stores seem to carry Grandt Line.

 

Noting Clive's revelation about being a railway trackhead, I found a UK model railway site who claim to offer a very similar alternative product here: http://www.ngtrains.com/Pages/Details/NBW/nbw.html .  However, the last note on the page is dated Oct 16 predicting a re-stock.  An email to them has gone unanswered too.  Clive - is there anything like this in the Gauge 1 community??