Jump to content
This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

larchiefeng

Pocher F40 with Autograph transkit upgrade challenge build

Recommended Posts

You read my mind Wayne.  My plan is to start the engine while you are working on the shocks and suspension. I plan to go through the kit this weekend and sort out all the parts. There are a ton of white metal parts in bags that need to be sifted through.  It will also give me a chance to make sure all the parts are there.

 

I am sure they will get back to you shortly Wayne. I was under the impression that Autograph is a sole proprietor business (or close to).  I give them a little slack for slower response or missing parts than Hornby. I am sure they will make it right for you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No actual progress from me today as I've been gone all day but, I did hear from Uli at Autograph today. He is sending me the parts plus a couple of other replacement parts that I broke. I did sort of repair the broken pieces and they would have worked but, getting new replacements is the better option. I learned a lesson on how brittle the drill bits are and how fragile white metal can be if you're not careful. I spent a lot of time last night doing research and I have a much better idea of exactly how things need to go. This, plus Uli did answer a couple of questions I had, or rather confirmed my thoughts about a few things. There are just too many parts in this transkit to start making mistakes this early in the build but, I feel pretty comfortable moving forward. I also picked up a few containers today and I think that, tomorrow I will spread it all out on the table and take a few shots of everything to give you all an idea of the contents of the transkit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moving on to work on the lower control arms and mounting brackets. All the molded in bolt heads needed to go and be drilled out for actual metal hardware. Arms and some of the hardware just getting started here.

IMG_5966_zps4p78cmbl.jpg

 

IMG_5967_zpscbr25rg7.jpg

 

Area of the frame to be cut out and replaced with the brass plates and hangers for the upper and lower control arms to mount on.

 

IMG_5974_zpsklczanlk.jpg

 

Brackets to be made, one for the upper and one for the lower. Here is the lower section in the holder and the upper parts in the background.

 

IMG_5979_zps4wcjrfon.jpg

 

A little better shot of the lower bracket

 

IMG_5982_zpsdmu8byhm.jpg

 

The upper bracket is a little more complicated when trying to get the piece on the right clip onto main bracket

 

ace280cb-04bf-4d0c-8dd0-1baa3b87d3f7_zps

 

Here's both brackets before I clean them up. I'm only going to do one side at a time to make sure they are soldered correctly and everything lines up. There's a lot of moving parts here with the brackets, control arms with new bolts and the shocks to get fit in there so, slow and steady is the plan until I get more comfortable with the soldering etc. The other big problem is the lack of clear pictures and reference just on things like which way the brackets mount. One side is rounded and the other is a little more flat and it makes a difference. As if this isn't hard enough, the lack of clear instructions and pictures makes this a bit of a guessing game. This is the main reason to only do one side at a time; if I make a mistake, I only have to take one set apart to fix.

 

IMG_5988_zpsjd6wfyhf.jpg

 

Here the arms are setting where they will eventually go. The upper still needs to have the tabs cut off from how they mounted on the car from Pocher. The lower already has them removed and drilled out. The other bolt heads have been removed and drilled out on the lower as well but, the upper still has all the molded heads and the whole thing needs to be reworked. Speaking of drilling, I've already broken 6-7 drill bits in sizes between 1.2 mm, 1.4 mm and 1.8 mm. Since I'm breaking them by the gross, I figured that I'd better start buying them in bulk so, I bought 10 of each size from eBay. This has been a little slow going because of the learning curve and no Paul Koo DVD!

 

IMG_5989_zpsfgm69rst.jpg

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you drill freehanded? Maybe you could get yourself a small drill press. This usually leads to nice and clean holes and less broken drills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I've been hand drilling all the holes.I do have a Dremel and the drill press that goes with it but, I mounted it in an area of the  workbench that isn't very well lit and isn't where I can easily use it. With so many holes to be drilled out, I can see that I'm going to have to rethink it. The other issue, I believe is that, the bits are so cheap and brittle it doesn't take much to snap them. My biggest concern is when the bit breaks it's inside what I'm drilling and I can't get it out without destroying the piece; not the optimum situation. I did order better quality bits and I think that I'm going to have to figure out where I can mount the drill press and use it. With the weather getting warmer, the garage workbench seems like a good place for this. The actual working space inside keeps shrinking no matter how many times I clean it up, I keep dragging more tools back out. As much as I hate to have a model spread out between downstairs and the garage, it seems like the only solution for some of the operations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

May I offer a suggestion regards drill bits...from what you are describing...and the amount of bits you are breaking...I would guess you are using 'micro carbide' bits....

Assuming this is the case...and for the sizes you have given...they are the wrong ones to use....as they are designed for vertical drilling in presses and CNC's.

Another factor to take into account is the Pocher plastic...it contains resins which grip the bit....stops it turning...hence the breakage.

This particular problem can be avoided with a drop of suitable lubricant (water based to avoid glues later being rejected).

Last thing to consider when drilling by hand....the type of pin vice you use....here...weight and shape are important...too heavy and your hand drops....putting a strain (bending) the drill bit...it then snaps.

If too slim...it is difficult to hold/control....which again leads to bending/breakage.

 

I know of your background and experience with tools and machines Wayne...so please don't be offended by my comments.

They are made....based on working with many materials (figures/kits in plastics, resins, and metals over many years) and especially Pocher plastics of late.

 

Regards

 

Ron

Edited by silver911
mistake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No problem Ron. You are correct about the Pocher plastic being very grippy. I know that the regular plastic on the classics is really ABS and not styrene but, the plastic on the control arms is more like a hard vinyl thus the gripping nature. When you drill it, it doesn't bore a clean hole it, gives you a spiral hole that matches the drill bit and you have to run it through a few times to get a clean hole. The bits I was using are the ones that have the colored  plastic rings with the larger shaft. Normally, when drilling regular styrene plastic they work fine with minimal problems.

 

I am also guilty of dropping my hand and stressing the bit like you suggest. Part of that is a result of the constant drilling and re-drilling of each hole. I get a bit lazy and I don't pay as much attention as I do when I first drill the hole so, it's carelessness on my part that, is partially responsible. Like Schwarz-bot suggests, I should probably start using the drill press, at least on these pieces, because of the plastic. I don't think I'll have this problem on the engine plastic. Rich is about ready to start on the engine so, we'll see what his experience is. I do, however, know from my experience on the Testarossa engine that, the holes drilled fine.

 

Here's an example of just how crowded things are getting here inside the man cave workshop and why I need to move some of the drill press, soldering and other work outside. There's also a mini lathe hidden in this mess somewhere that needs to get set up outside as well.

 

IMG_5995_zpsdi5z5mfj.jpg

 

There's just not enough room to work on Pochers on this bench that's, why I have the card table too.

 

IMG_5996_zpsl6c9wah5.jpg

 

I need to start selling off a lot of these kits too. I've discovered that no matter how big or small the space is, you will fill it up!

 

IMG_5997_zpsbvmaqu9b.jpg

 

Mercedes temporary home until the display case gets built. It's too big for this case.

 

IMG_5998_zpsghlbr5hf.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, larchiefeng said:

 

No problem Ron. You are correct about the Pocher plastic being very grippy. I know that the regular plastic on the classics is really ABS and not styrene but, the plastic on the control arms is more like a hard vinyl thus the gripping nature. When you drill it, it doesn't bore a clean hole it, gives you a spiral hole that matches the drill bit and you have to run it through a few times to get a clean hole. The bits I was using are the ones that have the colored  plastic rings with the larger shaft. Normally, when drilling regular styrene plastic they work fine with minimal problems.

 

I am also guilty of dropping my hand and stressing the bit like you suggest. Part of that is a result of the constant drilling and re-drilling of each hole. I get a bit lazy and I don't pay as much attention as I do when I first drill the hole so, it's carelessness on my part that, is partially responsible. Like Schwarz-bot suggests, I should probably start using the drill press, at least on these pieces, because of the plastic. I don't think I'll have this problem on the engine plastic. Rich is about ready to start on the engine so, we'll see what his experience is. I do, however, know from my experience on the Testarossa engine that, the holes drilled fine.

 

 

Those bits you describe are indeed 'Micro Carbide'....as said...they are wrong for hand drilling the material on the control arms etc.

 

These are the ideal type for all of the parts in the kit that require 1mm and up....you can use the MC bits to 'pilot' the holes....as they have a very sharp point.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silverline-50Pc-Engineers-HSS-High-Speed-Steel-Drill-Bits-1-1-5-2-2-5-3mm-/352011830904?hash=item51f58a4678:g:GO0AAOxyVaBS-O1d

 

Not sure if you are aware of this but...MC bits have a a 'cleaning' twist at the very end of the bit....hence...you need to drill right up to the shank in order to get a clean hole...and this is where the likelyhood of snapping is highest.

 

Here are some of the best 'pin vices' available (I use the Black one).....

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOT-Micro-Mini-Aluminum-Hand-Drill-with-Keyless-Chuck-and-Drills-Rotary-Tool-/262670134310?var=&hash=item3d285c2c26

 

Hope this helps :)

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Ron, they look like the ones I bought over here from eBay:

 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/190822030318?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I do like the the pin vises though. I don't think that, I've seen this type before especially the one with the chuck and key, pretty interesting.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's in the description....'Jobbers' (every day basic use)....as opposed to 'Engineers'...which are ground to higher tolerances...from better grade steel.

 

The one with the chuck and key is best mounted in a normal power drill chuck...which kind of defeats the object of the exercise me thinks!

 

I have a lot of MC bits....mostly below 1mm....as true engineers bits tend to start at that size (1mm).

 

There is a trick to getting the broken MC shaft out of the 'plastic' pieces....carefully melt the plastic around the end to expose enough of it to grip...then use jewellers fine nosed pliers to 'turn' it back out ;)

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As we all surmised, Pocher headaches and transkit complexities are already producing excellent problem solutions.

 

Great contributions from the builders and viewers are a wealth of info for all of us. I've already broken my share of bits and I'm largely past that now but those parts are a goldmine. Thanks to Wayne, Ron and Schwarz for quality info.

 

Question Wayne; are those locating holes in the brass plate to which the ears get soldered to? If not, you've built some anti-dive into the upper control arm. It's a shame the trans instructions are not more clear. I think you'll need an open line to Tommaso going forward...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow Larchiefeng that is one hhhuuugggeeev collection, one to be proud of me thinks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron, I know that jobber bits aren't as good as the engineer's bits but, the sizes I need aren't readily available. If you notice the ones you show are 1.0 mm, 1.5 mm, 2.0 mm and so on; I needed 1.2 mm, 1.4 mm and 1.8 mm. I know that, it's splitting hairs but, that's what I was looking for. Good tip on removing a broken bit from plastic. Do you have any for removing one from white metal buried deep inside the part?

 

Mr. C, good to hear from you. On that particular piece the holes were there but on the upper plate where the there are three brackets; the one in the middle was a two piece bracket soldered onto the plate with not much of locator other than a shallow channel. That one was tricky to get clamped enough to solder but the other two were pretty easy. i just stuck a toothpick through the holes to keep them in position and then I used a small alligator clip to hold it while I just touched the resistance soldering probe to the brass and the solder just flowed quickly to the joint. 

 

Cookie, thanks but, I think that I'm more embarrassed by the number of kits that, I will never get to. I'm selling off a lot of them a little at a time. I just sold 4 Pochers on eBay today; enough to pay for this folly. But, as you can see, there's just way too many here and the overcrowding is really more of a negative when trying to work on anything. I've got to simplify and thin this lot down.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron thanks for the links.  I plan to buy a few of those pin vices.  I will also look into the bits too.  As Wayne mentioned the bit sizes are a little different but perhaps we use your link as a starting point to find the right size ones.

 

I got myself a bit organized for this build today.  I have separated all the white metal parts into bins and have dug out the stock engine.  I loosely put the engine together a few years ago to see what the stock kit would look like.  Here's a pic of the partial disassembly.  I plan to tackle the engine while Wayne continues to solder through the suspension to keep things more interesting for others.  And yes that is paint on some parts if you look closely.  That is all getting stripped off with a little 91% alcohol...

 

Rich

 

Engine%201_zpsid2qjony.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting stuff. I actually use the MC bits both in drill press and in a pin vice. 

I do break them (of course), but I have plenty spares in most sizes.

I buy them in lots of 50 or 100 for 20 of 30 Euro. 

I like these becsuse they all have the same shaft size and you therefore do not have to change chucks in the pin vice (or get more vices for every size). 

Using the pin vice I also end up with spiral holes, but as Ron said keep turning the vice and you will get a round hole. 

Whenever possible I use the drill press as this will make a much cleaner hole and I break much less drills. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, larchiefeng said:

Ron, I know that jobber bits aren't as good as the engineer's bits but, the sizes I need aren't readily available. If you notice the ones you show are 1.0 mm, 1.5 mm, 2.0 mm and so on; I needed 1.2 mm, 1.4 mm and 1.8 mm. I know that, it's splitting hairs but, that's what I was looking for. Good tip on removing a broken bit from plastic. Do you have any for removing one from white metal buried deep inside the part?

 

Understood mate....here is another tip...if you need a 1.2 mm hole....first drill it with 1 mm engineers bit...then enlarge it with 1.2 mm MC...much less risk of breakage ;)

 

As for removing a broken bit from white metal...a similar principle to the plastic trick...use a fine point nib on a soldering iron (your new one would be perfect because of fine temp control) and carefully melt away the surrounding metal to provide you with enough to grip as before.

If the base metal isn't 'true' white metal (i.e. lead/tin antimony mix) then it won't melt at all well....so....drill a series of holes around the original hole to again expose enough to grip and turn out.

 

Will that do you Wayne?

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, rjfk2002 said:

Ron thanks for the links.  I plan to buy a few of those pin vices.  I will also look into the bits too.  As Wayne mentioned the bit sizes are a little different but perhaps we use your link as a starting point to find the right size ones.

 

A good starting point...yes :)....and I highly recommend the black pin vice....I have two!

 

Also see my reply to Wayne above ;)

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome progress!!  I see you received your nuts and bolts from Autograph- I have not received mine since December, the first shipment was lost somewhere.  Autograph has been great about communication, but here we are almost in April, and no nuts and bolts.  And they have my money.  Work has totally stopped on my transkit for the Aventador, as I need these bolts.  Sorry, I just had to vent a little.  Your build is gorgeous Larchiefeng!!!

 

Darin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the both the upper and lower control arms drilled out, painted and ready to go for the new bolts. I have the brass mounting plates soldered together and ready to be mounted on the frame. But, first I have to remove the kit mounting points for the arms. This is going to require some surgery on the frame in order to create the spots for the brass plates to mount. I'm going to do this on one side only to start so, I can use the stock mounts as a reference to make sure of the correct positioning. To start the first picture shows the side that I'm cutting off first.

 

IMG_5999_zps1bowei7r.jpg

 

Here is a head on shot to show the before and after, this is the before

 

IMG_6003_zpsx0ko0vks.jpg

 

The after with the cut made

 

IMG_6004_zpsq3j4sx5u.jpg

 

The side view of what I cut off. I'm not sure just how much more if anything else needs to be removed.

 

IMG_6005_zpsrob4o0wc.jpg

 

Mocking up the brass plates for fit

 

IMG_6006_zpsjmmkujpr.jpg

 

A little better view

 

IMG_6007_zpsa1kjmavq.jpg

 

The paint is drying on the control arms so, I won't add the bolts until tomorrow. There are a couple of other brass plates that need to be added at the top where the clips are. Once I get the position figured out and these two plates more permanently mounted I can add the arms, shock and spindle on this side and repeat on the other side. Then, the next big soldering project will be the brake rotors which are going to be tricky. I spent a whole day just thinking about how to make a jig just, to hold the rotor pieces all together so I can solder it. When I get there you'll see what I'm talking about with the way it's assembled. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darin, those nuts and bolts were part of the transkit itself. I'm still waiting for the shock pistons (watch band pins) and a couple of replacement white metal parts. I can work around those for a while but, sorry to hear that you're still waiting. Either I or Rich will take some pictures of the entire transkit so you all can see just what we're working with here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah yes, gotcha.  My mistake.  Can I have yours?  LOL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Continuing on with the frame mods, I discovered these top plates and the way they are cut makes it easier to line up the upper control arm plates so, I cut off the other side and proceeded with attaching the top and upper plates. here's the top plates.

 

IMG_6014_zpsnxiajuzo.jpg

 

At this point the instructions say to epoxy the top and side plates to the place that has the most surface area. I noticed that, inside the four control arm hangers were holes for lining up the parts and thought that I would look and see if I still had some self tapping screws from the Mercedes that would go through the holes and allow me to screw these plates on instead. This is a nod to Codger and his threaded rod modifications that made things easier to take parts on and off multiple times when making changes that might be required and would allow for things to come off and on without damage. In my case here, it's more about not permanently gluing something on before, I'm sure of the correct positioning. It's always easier to give yourself a means of making corrections without destroying your work. So, if you look closely you'll see the screws.

 

IMG_6020_zps9rherhra.jpg

 

Everything seems to be lined up so far and it's just as tight as if it were glued; I'm not sure whether or not it needs to be epoxied.

 

IMG_6019_zpsdwglh1ij.jpg

 

Couple of shots of the upper arm in the bracket with the new bolt heads and washers

 

IMG_6023_zps6vzcw7ay.jpg

IMG_6024_zpsjnowqzay.jpg

IMG_6025_zpsszwunv1y.jpg

 

Tomorrow, I'll be filling the voids in the lower frame where the lower control arm plates mount so, I have a solid backing for them to mount. Once I get the solid surface built up, I'll be using the screws again to mount the lower plates. If I need to make any adjustments it won't be too difficult. The lower arms are ready to be mounted so, it's just about the mounting surface. Since I'm still waiting on the front shock parts, I'll be moving on to soldering the brake rotors together. I'm going to make a jig in order to hold the rotor parts together. You'll see the need for this when I show you how they're made.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking good. I like the use of Mr c's threaded bolt concept. If it fits correctly you may never even need to epoxy.  I look forward to the jig.

 

I finally did some work today. I started cutting off molded bolts on the engine and drilling holes for the steel bolts. I thought this would be straight forward until I counted molded bolts and compared to number of steel bolts in the Instructions.  There are more molded bolts than steel ones and the instructions call for a bunch of nuts to be used with no clear explanation. After starring at the parts and pics I slowly figured it out. Some bolts go through the part with a nut on the back to simulate the fastener. Other bolts are left off as a PE part is used later and bolted to that area. The tricky thing is none of this is clear so I need to be careful. I cannot drill a big hole and CA the bolt in as it may need to come out later. To be safe I should thread all of them in.  Unfortunately they are tiny (1mm) and in hard to reach spots. I can't use a driver as it would damage any paint surrounding it. I am going to try using tweezers/forceps to slowly twist the bolt in...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also found a couple of places where the trick is to use an S2 bolt with a nut on the other end and then cut the bolt in half and then you put one half into one side of the hole and then the cut off piece with the nut on the other side. So one bolt and nut becomes two pieces. If you look at the control arm in my second to last picture, the bolts and nuts on either side of the hole is exactly what was done there. This may be how the nuts and bolts are done on the areas where the transmission bolts to the engine etc.

Edited by larchiefeng

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice to see one of these again. The Autograph transkit has some great parts, but lacks detail in other areas.

If you need reference material, I can highly recommend the DVD made by a german who restored a damaged F40. Forgot the name of the website, but I will post a link as soon as I can find it.

 

Edit : found it : ferrarif40.de

Edited by Pascal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...