Canadian Hurricanes

[Troy Smith]

17 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

 

The aircraft had to be disassembled for shipping, so if the stored aircraft were assembled CCF could substitute new mark II parts for the relevant mark I easily enough during packing.  If they were disassembled that actually might be harder depending on how much packing had been done and what parts were packed together, unpack mark I parts, substitute mark II, (re)pack for export sort of thing.  60 Hurricanes would take up a fair amount of room, admittedly removing the outer wing panels would save much space, so would they be stored in as complete a state as possible or would some work be done to reduce storage space requirements?

this is the standard packing crate

Quote

The fuselage of a Hawker Hurricane is pulled from its packing crate for assembly at Takoradi, Gold Coast, after being shipped from the United Kingdom. The wings, tailplanes and propeller can be seen stowed in the side sections of the crate. 

 

Part of the same Takoradi, Gold Coast sequence @ClaudioN posted.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Agreed it is the standard arrangement, but what happens if there are no wheels, tyres and tubes?  As reported to be the case with the stored mark I.  Would the airframe be further disassembled or rested on chocks or trestles?  In the photographs replacing the outer wings, engine mount and fuselage fairings would be simple enough, but the wing centre section would be a lot more work.  CCF shipped its airframes incomplete.

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Changing the outer wings and front fuselage are simple enough, the wing centre section is in the photograph, connected to the fuselage and the undercarriage, to replace that you need to lift the fuselage off at least, maybe disconnect the main undercarriage and move it to the new wing centre section.

Agreed that changing the wing centre section is the hardest part.

How long it takes probably depends on how it must/can/needs to be done. As can be seen in the photo I linked to here, the centre section can be brought to such an advancement stage to include undercarriage and tanks. If replacement components were available in that form, substitution apeears to be a matter of hours, rather than days.

1 hour ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

However we know none of the stored mark I had wheels, brakes, tyres or tubes, so what they were resting on becomes an issue, perhaps chocks or trestles or they were more disassembled than the ones in the photograph.

There is one photo of stored Hurricanes at Dartmouth (see C&E) where they are simply laying on the floor with retracted undercarriage. Maybe?

As for wheels and tyres, we may perhaps assume they had at last arrived when production resumed?

Edited July 27, 2019 by ClaudioN

[ClaudioN]

51 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Agreed it is the standard arrangement, but what happens if there are no wheels, tyres and tubes?  As reported to be the case with the stored mark I.  Would the airframe be further disassembled or rested on chocks or trestles?  In the photographs replacing the outer wings, engine mount and fuselage fairings would be simple enough, but the wing centre section would be a lot more work.  CCF shipped its airframes incomplete.

No proof, but I'd say doing the least work necessary is a sound general engineering rule. I'd be surprised if CCF didn't follow that, both when placing airframes into storage and when reworking them to Mark IIs. Having no clue, I'd say "disassembled as little as possible" and "reworked as quick as possible".

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

43 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

Agreed that changing the wing centre section is the hardest part.

How long it takes probably depends on how it must/can/needs to be done. As can be seen in the photo I linked to here, the centre section can be brought to such an advancement stage to include undercarriage and tanks. If replacement components were available in that form, substitution apeears to be a matter of hours, rather than days.

There is one photo of stored Hurricanes at Dartmouth (see C&E) where they are simply laying on the floor with retracted undercarriage. Maybe?

As for wheels and tyres, we may perhaps assume they had at last arrived when production resumed?

I agree if the parts are available and the workshop is equipped it should not take a long time, if everything is accessible.  No wheels slows movement down, unpacking from crates costs time and so on.  The centre section would be fitted as per the photograph, so that assembly had to be ready to go as well, otherwise it is more time to fit the tanks and undercarriage etc.  So far all photographs of partially assembled Hurricanes have the wing centre section attached to the fuselage.

 

C&E = Carl and Elizabeth and the 4 part article on RCAF Hurricanes published by the Canadian Aviation Historical Society, the pre war photograph shows fuselages with engines but minus tails and outer wings, propped up on trestles since the radiator is in place.  No idea about the undercarriage, or just the wheels, whether retracted or removed.  Since the tyres were meant for grass fields and wore out quickly on the runways the RCAF was using, leading to a pre war shortage.

 

I agree by end January 1942 at least some of the missing supplies had arrived, given we know some of the RCAF Hurricanes entered service, after the effort to obtain them I doubt the RCAF was interested in sending any spares straight back versus keeping them in stock for the 80 strong force expected to operate in Canada.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Agreed it is the standard arrangement, but what happens if there are no wheels, tyres and tubes? 

A supposition/suggestion,   there maybe no operationally serviceable parts,  but there are parts that are use-able to push the airframe around on in storage.   

[Graham Boak]

Wooden wheels have been used for this purpose elsewhere.  The French used old and unsuitable props to transfer fighters from factory to service centres.

[dogsbody]

A larger view of Claudio's picture in Post # 149.

 

 

 

Chris

[dogsbody]

7 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

There is one photo of stored Hurricanes at Dartmouth (see C&E) where they are simply laying on the floor with retracted undercarriage. Maybe?

As for wheels and tyres, we may perhaps assume they had at last arrived when production resumed?

 

This photo:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

My take on the Canadian Hurricane Story.  Meant to accompany a list of monthly production.  Hopefully it makes enough sense.

 

As noted few Canadian built Hurricanes were test flown immediately after assembly and in fact most as rolled out of the factory were not ready to fly even if an engine was available.  A report in December 1941 noted stored mark I airframes were complete less wheels, brakes, tyres and tubes but needing engines, propellers, instruments, and all other appendix A Serial 1160 Embodiment Loan Equipment.  The mark II then in production emerged from the factory in a similar state to those stored, "require from England, wheels, brakes, air compressors and drives and couplers for same, hydraulic pump drives and couplings, airscrews and instruments".  The brakes being magnesium alloy castings.

 

The Hurricane production figures to the end of 1941 vary considerably between references, it is assumed there was an overhaul in reporting procedure in 1941, and the cumulative and quarterly figures in the Canadian Q1/1942 report are correct.  That is the cumulative total to 30 September 1941 and figures for production in Q4/1941 and Q1/1942 are correct, as these agree with the monthly figures published by MAP in England, those in the US War Production Board Report, which start from September 1939, and ultimately give the accepted grand total for Canadian Hurricane production, but clearly the agreement could simply be the US and UK figures repeating the Canadian ones.  The following monthly figures from the Canadian archives file Record Group 28 Volume 3 have been altered to fit the War Production Board monthly totals, by doing this the altered figures also then agree with the cumulative totals and the Canadian quarterly figures.  The changes are, three aircraft are removed from the December 1940, two from the March 1941 and three from the June 1941 figures, a total reduction of eight aircraft.

 

Even with these reductions the official total of one thousand four hundred and fifty one Hurricanes is two more than the currently traced RAF and RCAF serial numbers officially used.  There were one thousand one hundred and ninety nine RAF and four hundred and thirty RCAF serials issued that have been confirmed so far, including one RAF serial that was officially a duplicate.  Thirty RAF order aircraft, AG287, AG293 to AG296, AG299, AG300, AG302, AG304 to AG319, AG323, AG325 to AG327, AG330 and AG332 were also given the RCAF serials 1351 to 1380, while serials 1381 to 1410 were initially reserved for further Hurricane transfers they were ultimately used for Beech Expeditors and so are not counted here.  One hundred and fifty aircraft from the RCAF mark XII order, serials 5376 to 5775, were given RAF serials between PJ660 and PJ872 (less blackout blocks, that is serials deliberately not used) the aircraft transferred were RCAF serials 5483, 5504 to 5577, 5580 to 5583, 5591 to 5622 and 5737 to 5775.  In both cases the assignment of serials from one air force to the other was irregular.  The fifty RAF serial aircraft BW835 to BW884 were ordered and completed as Sea Hurricane mark I but operated by the RCAF while retaining their RAF serials. This leaves one thousand four hundred and forty nine known unique serials. 

 

One of the confirmed RAF serials is AM270, a serial also assigned to a Catalina, Hurricane AM270 was completed around early March 1942 to Dutch standards as part of an order for the Netherlands East Indies (KM/KNIL) and given the serial HC3-287, its subsequent fate is unclear beyond being used by CCF for test flying.

 

Two more known allocated Hurricane serials, JS372 and JS373, were officially cancelled from the RAF order but most likely after they were sent to Britain where they were scrapped.  Adding JS372 and JS373 would mean there are one thousand four hundred and fifty one unique serials, matching the reported production total. 

 

RAF serial allocations P5170 to P5209, T9519 to T9538, Z6983 to Z7162, AE958 to AE977, AF945 to AF999, AG100 to AG344, AG665 to AG684, AM270 to AM369, AP138, BW835 to BW999, BX100 to BX134, JS219 to JS468, PJ660 to PJ695, PJ711 to PJ758, PJ779 to PJ813 and PJ842 to PJ872.

 

There were one thousand six hundred CCF construction numbers allocated, as each of the one hundred and fifty aircraft transferred from the RCAF order to the RAF, the PJ serials, received a second one,  removing these results in only one thousand four hundred and fifty known construction numbers.  CCF allocated construction numbers in batches of 40 with a gap of 1,960 between batches, so for example 24001 to 24040, 26001 to 26040, 28001 to 28040.  It is known AM274 had construction number 24025 while AM339 had 28009, the difference is sixty five serials but only sixty four construction numbers.  Within this serial block are AM321 and AM322 which have no known records, it is probable one of them did not have a construction number or else had a unique, currently undocumented, one, or was never built.  It also means AM270/HC3-287 should have had construction number 24021.

 

Hurricane production was split between the RAF and RCAF but no production report giving the monthly break down between mark I, II, Sea and XII has yet been found, while the RAF delivery logs consider only mark I and II were built.  The RCAF documentation states it received twenty mark I in 1939 from British production then the following from Canadian production, thirty mark I in early 1942 which were the AG serial aircraft listed above, fifty Sea Hurricanes (the BW serials listed above) and four hundred mark XII with one hundred and fifty of the mark XII transferred to the RAF and given serials starting PJ.  Survivors of the thirty AG serial aircraft transferred were later upgraded to mark XII with Merlin 29.  The fifty Sea Hurricanes were also mark I airframes and again were later upgraded to mark XII with Merlin 29 engines.  The Canadian production schedules and quarterly production reports do split production between those for the RAF and those for the RCAF, giving cumulative totals to the given end of month and, in the quarterly reports, mark XII production by quarter.  They show nine hundred and fifty aircraft built for the RAF to the end of June 1942, with the first RCAF order aircraft built in June.  Production continues with the RCAF order until sometime in the first quarter of 1943 when the remaining one hundred and one RAF order aircraft were built, followed by the remainder (at least fourteen and probably twenty five) of the RCAF order.

 

The quarterly reports and schedules also give the total number of aircraft under order, from eight hundred, all for the RAF, at the end of June 1941, to one thousand two hundred at the end of February 1942, including four hundred for the RCAF ordered in the third quarter of 1941, to one thousand four hundred and fifty including four hundred for the RCAF at the end of March 1942, after a further two hundred and fifty more for the RAF were ordered.  As of the end of March 1943 the planned production total was still one thousand four hundred and fifty but the production report for the second quarter of 1943 has one thousand four hundred and fifty one, with four hundred for the RCAF.  This final change is believed to account for AG341 which, despite its serial number, is recorded in the RAF contract cards and delivery logs as one of the last aircraft built in 1943.  However a document listing the sixty airframes in storage in December 1941 lists AG341 and omits AG343 but incorrectly has AG201 instead of AG301, leaving open the possibility AG343 is also an error.  Canada reports one of the nine hundred and fifty one RAF order aircraft to serial JS368 (including the duplicate AM270) was not officially built before 1943.  The Department of Munitions and Supply report for the second quarter of 1943 has the following under new orders for the quarter, placed in Canada, “1 Hurricane shipped in excess of order for 250 by Canadian Car and Foundry” and as noted the final RAF order was for two hundred and fifty aircraft.

 

To compare the production figures to the dates given in the RAF and RCAF documentation as a basic check requires a caution, with aircraft being shipped overseas and the final sixty mark I being stored in Canada against an allocation of one hundred for training purposes the dates are incomplete and are probably not consistent, for example not always reporting the delivery date.  Cross referencing the cumulative totals from the Air Force dates and the production reports shows considerable month to month variation but the gap in production in September and October 1941 does provide a check.  The RAF dates give four hundred and eighty Hurricanes built to end August 1941, which is the number of RAF serials allocated from P5170 to AG344, the official production total is five more.  The build order, apart from the initial forty P serials, does not follow serial number order, the twenty T serials overlap with the initial aircraft from the one hundred Z serials, which in turn overlap with the twenty AE serials and the fifty five AF as well as the two hundred and forty five of the two hundred and sixty five AG serials, to AG344, (except AG341 which was a 1943 aircraft) with the last aircraft built to end September 1941 having AF serials.  Whether there was a decision to deliberately build airframes in non serial order at times, like the Sea Hurricanes were, or the uncertainties in the dates for the airframes stored in Canada, or whether this is simply the result of shipment difficulties and delays is unknown.  Later Canadian Lancaster production started with the KB serials before switching to the FM serials order.

 

The October 1941 onward production is a mixture of, in order of appearance, the one hundred and sixty five BW (starting with the Sea Hurricanes), the ninety nine AM (starting around AM297, not AM271, which seems to be related to the 1941 plan to store the hundred airframes in Canada, sixty of which were listed as stored in a December 1941 report, and/or to airframes partly assembled when production paused in 1941), the final twenty AG serials AG665 to AG684 (again appearance times probably related to the 1941 storage plan), also AP138 (the AM270 replacement) and the thirty five BX serials until April 1942, which reports AG, AM, BW and BX serial aircraft delivered that month and also the first JS serial deliveries.  After the first one hundred and fifty JS serials, to JS368, were built delivery of them stops in June while the Canadian order, the four hundred RCAF serials 5376 to 5775, begins, with only the Canadian order in production until JS serial deliveries resume in March 1943, at which time the Canadian order stops deliveries even though there are twenty five aircraft still outstanding, while the final ninety eight of the RAF JS serial order plus AG341 are delivered, RCAF deliveries resume in June after the end of the JS serial aircraft.  As can be seen from the production figures the Air Force dates are normally later then the official production dates.

 

It means the production reports have five more aircraft to end September 1941 but then two less from November 1941 on compared with using the dates from the air force documents.  The Canadian production schedules and quarterly production reports have nine hundred and fifty aircraft built for the RAF to the end of 1942, which accounts for all RAF serials, including AM270, except for the final hundred JS ones (JS369 to JS468) and AG341.  The difference comes in 1943, where the Canadian reports state one hundred and one aircraft built for the RAF while the RAF is reporting ninety nine received, consisting of AG341 and the final one hundred JS serials less the cancelled JS372 and JS373. 

 

As of 1 October 1942 the US had agreed to supply one hundred and twenty Merlin 28 plus another twenty four as spares for the order for the two hundred BW and BX serial aircraft, and four hundred Merlin 29 plus another eighty as spares for the RCAF order for four hundred mark XII, along with four hundred and eighty Hamilton 23E50 propellers. The document giving the engine numbers also noted seven hundred and sixty three of the one thousand and fifty five Hurricanes delivered to date were shipped without engines or propellers.  Packard did not start building Merlins until August 1941 and had built forty nine to the end of the year of which thirty two were Merlin 28, versus a cumulative total of five hundred and fifty six Canadian Hurricanes built to the end of 1941.  Merlin 29 production began in February 1942 and the propeller order in March.

 

Air 20/2019 gives monthly figures of Canadian Hurricane imports into England.  It notes a total of four hundred and nineteen mark I airframes, four hundred and forty seven mark II airframes and two hundred and thirty four mark II with engines between March 1940 and June 1943.  It is known at least eight mark I and eleven mark II were lost at sea on the way from Canada to England.  Air 19/524 reports the number of Canadian built Hurricanes issued to the RAF in England.  It is also known that seventeen of the pre war British built Hurricane I operated by the RCAF were sent back to England, they are considered part of 1 squadron RCAF equipment and are not counted as imports, but are counted as delivered to the RAF.  The import figures have one more mark I than the accounted for Canadian production, which is explained by the return of the pattern aircraft L1848, sent to CCF in February 1939, it was reported back at Hawkers in October 1940 and issued to 310 squadron in November.

 

The import figures have fifty six mark I airframes imported in 1940 then another three hundred and sixty three January to the end of August 1941, one anomaly is the imports begin in April 1940 but the RAF reports receiving five in March.  The weekly report for 27 April 1940 states five CCF Hurricanes had arrived sometime to 20 April, so it is believed the April 1940 import figure is actually March and April combined.  After the end of mark I imports there is a gap to December 1941 when the first seven mark II airframes arrived.  The 1942 imports of mark II ended in August after three hundred and eight airframes and one hundred and eighteen with engines had arrived.  The mark II imports would correspond to the AG, AM, AP, BW and BX serials, along with the first one hundred and fifty JS serials, excluding AG341, those lost at sea or retained in Canada.  In 1943 imports resumed in March and ended in July, totalling one hundred and thirty two mark II airframes and one hundred and sixteen with engines, which would correspond to the one hundred and fifty PJ serials, the final one hundred JS serials and AG341, less those lost at sea.

 

All up one thousand one hundred Hurricanes were officially imported into England from Canada between March 1940 and June 1943, of these two hundred and thirty four had an engine installed before shipment.  In addition seventeen of the pre war RCAF order returned.  Some one thousand and seventy three of the Hurricanes imported into Britain were issued to the RAF (including those then sent to the USSR or RAF overseas commands), while twenty one mark I in the AG108 to AG273 batch were reduced to spares and six other mark I and two mark II were not issued for unknown reasons.  The final issue of new CCF Hurricanes to the RAF was in October 1943.

 

The one thousand one hundred arriving in Britain, along with nineteen known lost at sea en route and three hundred and thirty retained in Canada, accounts for one thousand four hundred and forty nine aircraft, but imports include the return of L1848, removing it reduces the total of accounted for CCF built Hurricanes to three less than the official production total of one thousand four hundred and fifty one.  The candidates for the final three aircraft are AM270 which only appears in Dutch and CCF documentation, AM321 and AM322 which have no known documentation, JS287 which is listed as being taken on charge on 5 May 1942 but no further details have been found and JS372 and JS373, despite being reported as officially cancelled.  Looking at the import versus production totals to September 1942 the number of Hurricanes unaccounted for is three, implying AM270, AM321, AM322 and JS287 are the likely candidates.  The 1943 imports less lost at sea match the number of Hurricanes reported by Canada as built for the RAF that year, implying JS372 and JS373 were built, sent to Britain but scrapped, support for this comes from the fact that two of the 1943 mark II imports that were not delivered to the RAF.    

 

Given the production total of one thousand four hundred and fifty one the weight of evidence is all allocated RAF serials were used, including JS372, JS373 and the duplicate AM270, and it, along with AM321 and AM322, are the aircraft that either never left Canada or were lost at sea on the way to England without the RAF recording the loss.  An alternative is JS372 and JS373 were actually cancelled and two of AM270, AM321 and AM322 were shipped to England in 1943 and not issued to the RAF while being double counted in the Canadian production reports as both 1942 and 1943 production.

 

David Birch has been investigating Merlin production, his research indicates all Merlin 29 imported by Canada stayed in Canada, but all Merlin 28 imported for Hurricanes were exported, either as a stand alone engine or fitted to a Hurricane.  When the decision was taken to transfer one hundred and fifty of the RCAF order to the RAF either another one hundred and forty one Merlin 28 were ordered or the engines were diverted from those on order for Lancasters to power the Hurricanes  The one hundred and forty four Merlin 28 engines in the first, 1942, order at least lacked accessories and could not be flown, in addition apart from one or two aircraft selected for some brief test flights any Canadian Hurricane arriving in England with an engine had it immediately removed and replaced by a Merlin XX.  The Merlin 28 then being used to power British built Lancasters.

 

This presents a problem in counting how many of each mark were built, as the engine largely defines the mark.  Clearly most Hurricanes built in Canada to 1 October 1942 were shipped to England to be fitted with engines, and in fact around 60% of total production was exported as airframes only plus most CCF Hurricanes were accepted as built without any test flights, about one in ten of the Mark I were tested and it is possible none of the mark II built for the RAF were flight tested in Canada.

 

As noted the official definition of Hurricane mark number largely depends on the engine fitted.  The mark I had a Merlin II or III, the mark II a Merlin XX, the mark IV a Merlin XX, the mark V a Merlin 27 (or 32), the mark XII a Merlin 29.  The mark X was a proposed mark for Sea Hurricanes with Merlin 29 but not used, though the Dutch called their Hurricane version a mark X and some RAF documentation refers to CCF built mark I as mark X.  The mark XI was also a proposed mark number for ex RAF order Hurricane I fitted with Merlin 29 but again not used.  While the RCAF order were officially Mark IIB (Can) until they were renamed mark XII on 16 April 1943.  A further complication is, of the sixty mark I airframes stored in Canada in 1941, thirty were issued to the RCAF as mark I while thirty were apparently converted to mark II and shipped to Britain.  The wide spread reported definitions of mark X as Merlin 28 and mark XI as Merlin 28 with Canadian equipment do not seem to have officially existed, the closest being an informal plan to call RAF order Hurricanes with Merlin 28 expected to be retained in Canada as mark II (Eng).  It also is clear few Hurricanes flew powered by a Merlin 28 except for some test flights.  The RAF contract cards consider the 60 mark I airframes stored in Canada to be mark II while the delivery log entries mostly only give a mark number for those that reached Britain, the exceptions being AG292 to 296 and AG316 listed as mark I and AG332, listed as a mark II.

 

Based on the production total of one thousand four hundred and fifty one, Canadian Hurricane production as rolled out was four hundred and eighty six mark I, five hundred and twelve mark II, four hundred mark XII (but called IIB (Can) during most of the production run), fifty Sea Hurricane mark I, one to NEI standard and called by them a mark X (Merlin 28 (Possibly 29) but with a US radio, gun sight and other equipment) and two more unknown but most probably mark II if flown, making the mark II total five hundred and fourteen.  With the note that a few mark II aircraft were actually factory fitted and initially flown with a Merlin 28 engine for some test flights after arrival in Britain and so not really a mark I, II, IV or XII.  It is clear from the 1942 and 1943 import figures which RAF aircraft had an engine fitted in Canada is not related to their order but depends on another unknown criteria.  RAF serials P5170 to AG340 and AG342 to AG671 were mark I, while AG341 and from AG672 onwards were mark II as built, except for the block BW835 to BW884, which were the Sea Hurricanes.  However mark I airframes AG292, 7, 8, AG301, 3, AG320, 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, AG331, 33 to 40, AG342, 3, 4, and AG665 to 71 were apparently converted to mark II before being exported to Britain and so appear as mark II on all RAF documentation and, given the lack of test flights in Canada, were probably mark II as initially flown.

 

The June 1944 RAF census indicates of the six hundred and ninety four CCF built mark II for the RAF, including the one hundred and fifty from the RCAF order but excluding the thirty RAF order transferred to the RCAF, five hundred and sixty four were IIB and one hundred and thirty IIC.  The delivery logs have most IIC entries as IIB with the B replaced by a C, implying at least some conversions, and give five hundred and seven IIB and one hundred and eighty seven IIC, so fifty seven more IIC.  The Contract Cards that exist move seventy nine of the Delivery Log IIC to IIB.  It is probable CCF built B wings for all mark II airframes.  Then comes the possibility C wings were substituted on arrival in Britain.  The thirty mark I transferred to the RCAF and the fifty Sea Hurricanes were all A wing.

[ClaudioN]

Thank you Geoffrey,

 

this is a comprehensive presentation of what we have learned thanks to your research, the invaluable help of Carl and Elizabeth Vincent and the interesting discussions in this thread.

 

From what I understand, propellers must have been the hardest to get among the various items of embodiment loan equipment, to the point that the RCAF opted for a US-made Hamilton Standard propeller on its Mk. XIIs.

It would be interesting to know whether the practice of randomly testing a few Hurricanes from the CCF production line continued with the Mk. IIs and which engine/propeller combination was used in this case.

While it is known that a few Merlin Mk. IIIs together with de Havilland/Hamilton Standard propellers were made available to CCF (so-called 'slave' equipment) for this purpose, testing the Mk. IIs possibly required a Merlin XX (or 28) and a Rotol propeller. I have a feeling the practice was not carried through.

 

I agree with you on the likeliness that only B wings were built by CCF (if C wings were available in Canada, perhaps the RCAF might have wished to experiment with them on the Mk. XII). Conversion from Mk. IIB to Mk. IIC in the UK is quite likely and seems to have been carried out at least on the machines handed over to the Fleet Air Arm for conversion to Sea Hurricane Mk. IICs.

[ClaudioN]

17 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

It is known AM274 had construction number 24025 while AM339 had 28009, the difference is sixty five serials but only sixty four construction numbers. 

The difference is sixty-six (not sixty-five). It may account for both AM321 and AM322.

[ClaudioN]

19 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The June 1944 RAF census indicates of the six hundred and ninety four CCF built mark II for the RAF, including the one hundred and fifty from the RCAF order but excluding the thirty RAF order transferred to the RCAF, five hundred and sixty four were IIB and one hundred and thirty IIC.  The delivery logs have most IIC entries as IIB with the B replaced by a C, implying at least some conversions, and give five hundred and seven IIB and one hundred and eighty seven IIC, so fifty seven more IIC.

Could you please help me understand what was meant by 'census' vs 'delivery log'?

In my understanding, a 1944 census would represent the situation as of 1944, whereas 'delivery logs' are individual and cover a wider time span.

 

Just an idea of mine... The difference between the 1944 figure and the number you have obtained from delivery logs is quite close to the number of Mark IIs handed over to the Fleet Air Arm in September/October 1942. Maybe these would not figure in a 1944 RAF census?

 

19 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Given the production total of one thousand four hundred and fifty one the weight of evidence is all allocated RAF serials were used

Indeed serials allocated to RAF orders were 1051. Often AP138 is missing when totals are computed.

40 aircraft – P5170-P5209

20 aircraft – T9519-T9538

100 aircraft – Z6983-Z7017 (35), Z7049-Z7093 (45), Z7143-Z7162 (20)

440 aircraft – AE958-AE977 (20), AF945-AF999, AG100-AG344 (300), AG665-AG684 (20), AM270-AM369 (100)

1 aircraft – AP138

200 aircraft – BW835-BW999, BX100-BX134

250 aircraft – JS219-JS468

 

and the Canadian order:
400 aircraft – 5376-5775

 

total: 1451

 

Claudio

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by ClaudioN

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

4 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

The difference is sixty-six (not sixty-five). It may account for both AM321 and AM322.

Sorry, there was a carry the one error in both totals,

24025 to 24040 is 16 (40-25+1) then 26001 to 26040 is 40, then 28001 to 28009 is 9, total 65 construction numbers.

AAM339-AM274 is 339-274+1 =66 serial numbers.

3 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Could you please help me understand what was meant by 'census' vs 'delivery log'?

In my understanding, a 1944 census would represent the situation as of 1944, whereas 'delivery logs' are individual and cover a wider time span.

 

Correct, delivery logs are a serial number list of aircraft, the preserved ones I know of are from K1000 to RZ499, and usually give at least arrival and departure, including cause of departure.  Contract cards are similar to delivery logs.

 

Census is just that, a counting of the aircraft holdings, in the RAF case, end of month.

3 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Just an idea of mine... The difference between the 1944 figure and the number you have obtained from delivery logs is quite close to the number of Mark IIs handed over to the Fleet Air Arm in September/October 1942. Maybe these would not figure in a 1944 RAF census?

No, in this case the RAF tracked the handed over aircraft.

 

In February 1943 the RAF had 144 effective Sea Hurricane I on strength, including 50 in Canada, 1 in West and 7 in South Africa, its list of "ineffective" was 2 instructional, 26 Category E at home, 1 Category E in Dominions, 249 with the Admiralty, 1 in Russia, 5 unaccounted for on evacuation.

 

In June 1944 the RAF had 45 effective Sea Hurricane I on strength, its list of "ineffective" was 42 instructional, 65 Category E at home, 212 with Admiralty, 1 in Russia, 56 in Dominion Air Forces, 4 unaccounted for on evacuation.  Note the shift of where the overseas aircraft are counted.

 

Geoffrey Sinclair