Canadian Hurricanes

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

First more on the RCAF P-40 order.

Air Arsenal North America by Butler and Hagedorn report the P-40 from RAF order were replacements for the RCAF P-39 order, but do not mention what that order was.

 

Looking at some of the files from the Canadian Archives, (Note the RCAF also had B-26 and Vultee Vengeance on order.)

As of 26 August and 25 September 1941 there were 144 P-39 on order, with no definite schedule available before March 1942 and deliveries not expected before June 1942.
As of 22 January 1942 the P-39 order is gone but there is an order of 60 Hurricanes, 7 received in week ending 17 January, 14 per week thereafter.

Given the RCAF wanted 144 P-39, 72 P-40 would undoubtedly be considered not enough, hence the requests for Hurricanes, 60 (plus 30 Sea?) would give a fighter force of around the P-39 order numbers.

 

Hurricane production schedules

Q3/1941 800 RAF on order, 412 delivered to 30 June 1941 (147 Q1/41, 189 Q2/41), Forecast 150 in Q3 and again in Q4/41, 88 in Q1/42, order to be completed in February 1942. (The Q1/1942 production report has 400 RCAF and 1,050 RAF on order.)  Note the expected output in the final 6 months of 1941 versus the 175 actually built.
An estimate for Hurricane production, seems to be dated 31 May 1942 but the forecast starts in January 1942.  There were 521 (517?) produced to December 1941 out of 1,450 on order.  The January to December 1942 monthly forecast production is 78, 115, 77, 92, 67, 80, 80, 80, 80, 80, 80, 20 respectively, order completed December 1942.

March 1942 forecast, 400 RCAF, 800 RAF on order, with 714 RAF built to 28 Feb 1942.  Output then is estimated to be 70 RAF in March, 16 RAF, 84 RCAF in April then 80 per month to finish production in August.

June 1942 forecast, production to 31 May had been 925 RAF, output to be 80 RCAF per month June to November, with the final 45 RAF in December.

September 1942 forecast, production to 31 August had been 950 RAF, 73 RCAF, monthly production of 50 per month September 1942 to March 1943, then 77 in Q2/1943.
Q2/1942 production 186, versus forecast of 260
Q3/1942 production 86, versus forecast of 240
Q1/1943 production 150, versus forecast of 163

20 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

At first Sea Hurricanes were taken on strength by No. 118(F) Sqn. RCAF only in support of MSFU. Actual date of transfer to the RCAF might be later.

The relevant dates have been given, RAF 5 in November 1941, 26 in December, and 19 in January 1942, RCAF 28 in December 1941, 21 in January 1942, 1 in April.  As has been commented on the RAF officially received them first then passed them to the RCAF for operations.

21 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Having no less than 60 Mark II airframes in storage in early December, and waiting for engines that would be arriving three months later, would be rather poor production management. It would have made much better sense to send them without engines, as most of the planned Mark II production was.

Look at the production schedules and how difficult it was to obtain accurate forecasts.  I disagree it was poor production management, instead of inevitable delays and changing priorities.

 

Think of the 1941 RAF situation, early in the year there was a great need for fighters on the assumption the Germans would try for a second Battle of Britain along with pressure in the Middle East.  As of end June it was clear the RAF would have at least 6 months where its losses would be largely decided by the RAF, what operations it did, since the Germans were busy in the east, there would need to be aid to the USSR, which most people expected to collapse by the end of the year.  The urgent need for fighters had decreased to an extent, though the USSR was sent nearly 700 Hurricanes in 1941, another 1,350 or so in 1942.  With the reduction in urgency some Hurricanes could be retained in Canada, fitted with US engines, to allow more advanced training before personnel were sent to Britain, useful given the training limits in Britain.  The US engines were of course delayed, but then so were the airframes.

Then comes the late 1941 situation where there is a new Pacific front which needs fighters, the USSR is staying in the war and requires fighters, the US is not supplying promised fighters.  The Japanese have proved much better than expected so modern fighters are required, things like operations Cross and Churn pick up fighters from Takoradi and move them to Singapore, HMS Indomitable acts as an aircraft ferry as well, and the aircraft that do arrive are usually lost within a short time.  So the advanced training idea in Canada is abandoned, releasing the stored aircraft.

20 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Indeed, 50 had been imported from the UK, but they went to the Sea Hurricanes.  If Merlin III production ended in May 1941, we may assume that even those Sea Hurricane engines were overhauled, but probably not strictly "new".

How sure are you that exactly 50 Merlin III were imported for the Sea Hurricanes, I would have expected some extras given maintenance requirements.  And agreed the one way Sea Hurricanes were unlikely to receive new engines.

 

If you are going to use allocation dates to the USSR, particularly in 1942, remember convoy PQ17.  No Hurricanes were officially exported to the USSR October to December 1942.

 

And I must stress again I am working off the delivery logs, they are not meant as a detailed history, that requires the individual aircraft cards, possibly enough details of which are in the Air Britain Serials books, otherwise it is the RAF museum.  I can only report what the first date is in the delivery log and as noted it is clear some are the pre war definition of Taken on Charge, that is out of the factory, and others are arrival at a Maintenance Unit in Britain.  Given the dates when Hurricanes en route to the USSR are reported lost at sea versus their Russia dates it is best to assume the latter is allocation date.  What happened to the CCF built Hurricanes after they arrived in Britain cannot I think be of much use in figuring out Canadian production order.  AG680 Taken on Charge 9 March 1942, AM274 was Taken on Charge on 6 April 1942.  Note there were only 7 imports of CCF Hurricanes in December 1941 and none in November.

 

Where mentioned, Maintenance Unit, AM299 to AM355.

5MU AM305, 309, 312, 313, 316, 324, 339, 354, 355

13MU AM306, 315, 331, 333, 353,

20MU AM299, 300, 303, 332, 341, 346

 

To repeat myself,

For an idea of average travel times the table is month, the first number is production for the month and the second is production yet to arrive in Britain, as of end of month
 Sep-40 1 / 1
 Oct-40 7 / 7
 Nov-40 13 / 15
 Dec-40 15 / 21
 Jan-41 35 / 40
 Feb-41 46 / 63
 Mar-41 66 / 69
 Apr-41 58 / 73 (4 lost at sea removed)
 May-41 72 / 95
 Jun-41 59 / 51 (4 lost at sea removed)
 Jul-41 14 / 8
 Aug-41  0 / 0

 

That gives a good indication of the time between official roll out at CCF and official arrival in Britain, then comes delivery to the RAF.

 

The 1941/42 period is complicated because everything so far indicates the first 100 officially mark II production was held in Canada, plus the Sea Hurricane production.  Then the decision was taken to release the stored airframes, 70 to RAF, 30 to RCAF.  While in 1943 we do not know when the ex RCAF Hurricanes were released, it looks like after the final RAF order aircraft started production and includes RCAF 5737 to 5775, some of which were definitely built after the last RAF order ones.  So trying to determine the average travel times means looking at the 1941 production and assuming similar times in 1942 and 1943.

[ClaudioN]

4 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

And I must stress again I am working off the delivery logs, they are not meant as a detailed history, that requires the individual aircraft cards, possibly enough details of which are in the Air Britain Serials books, otherwise it is the RAF museum.  I can only report what the first date is in the delivery log and as noted it is clear some are the pre war definition of Taken on Charge, that is out of the factory, and others are arrival at a Maintenance Unit in Britain.

Geoffrey,

I am sorry, I didn't realise the difference between delivery logs and individual aircraft cards, so apologies.

 

I can only add to previous information one sentence I discovered today in the Hawker Hurricane book by Philip Birtles (2017):

"In the summer of 1941 there were delays in the supply of embodiment loan and other British-supplied equipment slowing production."

 

No reference to archive documents is given for this, and I had to learn what 'embodiment loan' means. I found it is equipment provided by the Ministry of Supply to aircraft manufacturers.

Am I right to understand this as a delay in equipment coming from Britain to Canada?

 

You have kindly provided lots of data, but we are still relying mostly on logic to interpret them. Unfortunately I am unable to agree with you. Overall, the picture you provide is convincing, some aspects less so:

• I agree about the need for fighters, and in 1941 these would be Mark II Hurricanes, not Mark Is
• you mentioned a plan in mid-1941 to store Hurricanes for the Empire Air Training Scheme. This suggested to me that Mark Is would be more likely as trainers, although having 100 in storage would create a requirement for at least 100 Merlin III engines, that in this case would have to travel to Canada, instead of having airframes sent to Britain.
• more or less at the same time, CCF was making preparations to switch to production of Mark IIs. Let us assume the 100 EATS Hurricanes were intended to be Mark IIs. Why then store first, then wait for engines, when there would be a continuous flow in the forthcoming months? And, given that Mark IIs were still much in demand, would it be reasonable to store them in Canada for training even before any delivery to the UK is made?

Just as a reminder, we have a photo of AG665 that shows it is a Mark I in August 1941 and a photo of RCAF 1359 from IPMS Random Thoughts that shows this also is a Mark I.

 

I'd suggest we might call it a day for the moment, that is, until somebody has new infromation to share.

 

Cheers

Claudio

[Carl V]

1.            I'm glad that our first post (Carl & Elizabeth) which concerns the "Battle Hurricanes" seemed to be of interest to some and I thank Claudio and Mr. Sinclair for their kind words.

2.            While this is all being sent under Carl’s name, we have been working as a team for half a century. Indeed, in another three weeks, God willing, we will be celebrating our 53rd wedding anniversary. In the case of the Hurricane, Elizabeth has photographed many hundreds of documents from the RCAF Hurricane files and which Carl had designated historical. She also looks after their storage and transmittal as Carl is the prototypical techno-Neanderthal!

3.            As part of our second attempt, we are attempting to post an image, in this case the list of paired serials for these 60 aircraft along with this posting.

4.            We have failed and are incapable of figuring out how to do this. If any kind friend out there can take us step by step through it, that would be great.

5.            Fear not, however, Elizabeth, that noble woman, is typing out the list – OCR is more trouble than it’s worth – and it is inserted below.

6. Sixty Mark I Equipped with Fairey Battle Engines:

1351 [new Service No.] – AG 323 {Old No.}; 1352 – 319;1353 – 317; 1354 – 315; 1355 – 318; 1356 – 313; 1357 – 316; 1358 – 314; 1359 – 325; 1360 – 332; 1361 – 312; 1362 – 310- 1363 – 309; 1364 – 305; 1365 – 311- 1366 – 306; 1367 – 307; 1368 – 294; 1369 – 327; 1370 – 330; 1371 – 308; 1372 – 304; 1373 – 326; 1374 – 287; 1375 – 295; 1376 – 296; 1377 – 293; 1378 – 299; 1379 – 302; 1380 – 300; 1381 – 298; 1383 – 303; 1384 – 297; 1385 – 668; 1386 – 670; 1387 – 669; 1388 – 666; 1389 – 292; 1390 – 665; 1391 – 667; 1392 – 320; 1393 -671; 1394 – 344; 1395 – 338; 1396 – 341; 1397 – 342; 1398 – 337; 1399 – 336; 1400 – 340; 1401 – 334; 1402 – 335; 1403 – 339; 1404 – 321; 1405 ; 333; 1406 – 328; 1407 – 329; 1408 – 324;1409 – 322;1410 – 331

7.            I have been wondering what to do next and was toying with the idea of doing the same thing with the Sea Hurricanes as I did with the Battle Hurricanes. However, on thinking the thing over, it does not seem to be a particularly efficient way of handling this.

8.            While going through my material – I have not been doing much, or thinking at all, of the Hurricane for several years – I realised that some time ago I had prepared a potted history of the RCAF Hurricane experience. In all modesty, I believe that it is far and away better than anything that has yet appeared on the subject and, as far as I can tell, will answer a number of questions that apparently, from reading the posts, still appear to be unanswered. In any event, it gives a full and contextual history of the subject. I have no objection whatsoever to sharing this with responsible researchers and historians. In this case, however, as it amounts to 7 pages and over 3600 words it would seem to be a little bit massive for a Britmo post. So, if anybody out there is interested in seeing it, how do we go about it?

9.            I know that Claudio suggested I send a list via PM. Post-mortem?  Papal missive? My guess is Private Message. Whatever it is, if this seems desirable, how do we go about it? Forgive our ignorance.

10.          I notice also from the posts that there is some interest in the RCAF Kittyhawk acquisitions. This is certainly one of my subjects – I supplied the information for Air Arsenal etc. I would be happy to elaborate on the subject though it is covered briefly in the history mentioned in paragraph 8.

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Hello Carl and Elizabeth, my but the material you are providing is interesting.  Firstly congratulations on 53 years of married life and being such an effective team.

 

The list in your message is 59 aircraft and does not include AG301 and AG343, the number ties exactly with the 59 officially built in July and August 1941, however the list is missing RCAF serial 1382 while RCAF 1369 is paired with AG341 , the RAF serial which does not appear until 1943 in the documents I have, while there is nothing in them that mark AG301 and 343 as unusual.  AG671 is number 487 in the list of CCF built Hurricane serials, removing the 426 mark I you are left with 61, given a total of 60 airframes in storage this does tie in with one of the AG291 to AG344 or AG665 to 671 not being produced in 1941.  As noted the evidence I have points to AG341 being that airframe.

 

Do you have a citation for the list, that is what RCAF/Archives file it came from?

 

I have not tried to post an image so cannot help there, I assume you are trying to post the image from your computer rather than from a web site.

 

Not sure what you mean by the Sea Hurricanes as they retained their RAF serials.

 

Jon Leake is trying to put together a definitive book on the Hurricane, an update on the Mason works, if you are interested in that idea, the project has been some years in the making and sounds like it still has some time to go before publication.

 

I am sure plenty of people reading your message would like to see the results of all that work. and I doubt a text only posting of that size would break the system but of course once it is public anyone can take a copy.  PM is definitely Private Message, though as a newcomer I am unsure how the system quite works and of course if more than a few people want a copy it could become a problem.  Exchanging email details may be a better way, so you have a direct connection to whoever receives a copy and can put in any terms and conditions you feel appropriate.

 

By all means post the Kittyhawk material, probably by starting a new topic, I am sure someone can give you a guide on how and where to do that.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Geoffrey Sinclair
missing question.

[Graham Boak]

I suggest that a better way of spreading this text is to convert it to .pdf standard and then it can be passed to all interested.  This is not something I have had reason to do myself but have benefitted from others presenting their work in this manner.  I would not recommend PMs on this site or others for large documents that will be saved for future reference.

 

You don't say, or I missed it, how this study is currently stored electronically.   If it is using Microsoft Word or one of the less popular office suites then it could simply be sent by email to those requesting it.  Conversion between different suites is generally easy these days, although careful checking should be done of the converted piece.

 

Starting a new thread is very easy, simply look among the options on the top.  Similarly for use of the PM messaging service.

[Carl V]

Hi, Geoffrey:

Thanks for your kind words.  Sorry, when transcribing the list I missed 1382, which is paired with AG201.

You say that 1369 is paired with AG341.  Both in the original list and my posted transcript 1369 is paired with AG327 and AG341 is not on the list at all.

The list came from LAC RG 24, RCAF file 938 AF-1-15, Hawker Hurricane - Programme for.

If we had your email address we could provide a photographic copy of the list and any of our other material in which you are interested.

Elizabeth V.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Transcribing lists where many of the "words" are almost the same is a really easy way to make unobserved typos.  Been there, done that far too many times.  Like in my reply, for 1369 read 1396, easy isn't it?  So 1382 = AG301 and I presume 1396 = AG343, leaving AG341 as the missing serial.  Which agrees with the contract cards and delivery logs and seems to make AG341 the 1 in the 1,451 production.

 

RG = Record Group = Canadian Archives?  Lovely reading room, glass wall with a superb view of the park leading down to the river.

 

Now to try private messaging.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Geoffrey Sinclair
rephrasing 3rd sentence.

[dogsbody]

A GOOGLE mail account would be a perfect way to send this to those wanting a copy. With a maximum of 15MB per per sent email, large documents are easily sent.

I personally have been using Gmail for years and have sent and received large documents and pictures.

 

 

Chris

[ClaudioN]

22 hours ago, Carl V said:

I'm glad that our first post (Carl & Elizabeth) which concerns the "Battle Hurricanes" seemed to be of interest to some and I thank Claudio and Mr. Sinclair for their kind words.

Hello Carl & Elizabeth V,

first of all, may I join Mr. Geoffrey Sinclair in congratulating you for being what you are, a couple sharing life and interests for so many years.

 

Apologies for using the shorthand PM in my first reply. Actually, when I first read 'PM' it took me time to figure out what it meant! Private Mail of course, though a papal message on RCAF Hurricane serials would be quite somenthing and... yes, I reckon post-mortem might be a tad too late.

 

Geoffrey already spotted the missing 1382, thank you for explaining. As far as I understand, then, RCAF 1396 is AG343, not AG341, right?

 

I am organising information I have (well, honestly, information I collected from BritModeller and a few books) into a spreadsheet. I'll be glad to share, if it is of use.

My own very long-time plan would be writing something on the Sea Hurricane (somebody here at BM might have guessed), but I reckon the project is still quite a few years away, into retirement and beyond.

I'd be curious to read your story of the Hurricane (sounds curiously like Bob Dylan, but it's the one with wings I'm thinking of): if you have it on file, I might send you my e-mail address by Private Mail, then we could exchange anything we like.

 

All the best

Claudio

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Carl V]

Claudio:

Thanks for your message and kind words.  Mr. Sinclair has now contacted us by PM and we have commenced what should be a pleasant and profitable interchange.  If you should do the same we would be delighted.

Carl and Elizabeth V

[ClaudioN]

Back to data provided by Geoffrey and the delivery schedule I'm making one more attempt, but now things may be definitely easier.

• imports into the UK 419, less the returning pattern aircraft, plus eight lost at sea: 426 exported from Canada, as calculated by Geoffrey
• production deliveries of Mark Is up to October 1941: 486
• difference stored in Canada: 60

Proof that, once the solution is known, calculations are simpler.

 

Then, assuming production deliveries of Mark IIs started in November in parallel with Sea Hurricanes, we would have:

11/41      26 Hurricane Mark II      5  Sea Hurricane      Total: 31

12/41     44 Hurricane Mark II     26  Sea Hurricane     Total: 70

1/42       44 Hurricane Mark II     19  Sea Hurricane     Total: 63

2/42      64  Hurricane Mark II

This suggests Mark II production was steadily getting up to full capacity (while also coping with the Sea Hurricane order) and production of Mark II components might have started around September (which may sound reasonable, with the Sea Hurricanes on the final assembly line).

Edited July 23, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The latest summary using the information from Carl and Elizabeth.

 

The RCAF1351-1410 serials list as listed above is correct, once you add in the 1 initially omitted.  AG201 is the serial in the document matched to 1381, clearly a typo for AG301 and RCAF 1396 is paired with AG341 while AG343 is missing, given AG201/301 for the moment it is assumed AG341 in the list should be AG343, given the RAF documentation mentions AG343 in 1942 but AG341 does not officially arrive until 1943, and in fact is the absolute last entry in the final order contract card.

 

Next in a letter dated 10 December 1941 from the (Canadian) Director General of Aircraft Production reported
15 Sea Hurricanes already despatched for the east.
9 Sea Hurricanes tested and ready at Fort William
26 Sea Hurricanes that were missing between them, 24 generator couplings, 11 pairs of wheels, 8 tail wheels (slave (CCF test) equipment can reduce this to 8 pairs and 6 tail wheels).  The brakes, being magnesium alloy castings, and the wheels must come from England, generator couplings from Merlin 28 can be used.  Some items of service equipment are also needed, "secret wireless device" etc.

 

Fort William has 60 mark IA airframes (explicitly stated can only take Merlin III engines), complete less wheels, brakes, tyres and tubes but needing engines, propellers, instruments, and all other appendix A Serial 1160 Embodiment Loan Equipment.  The deficient equipment will have to come from Fairey Battles, including a cut down two pitch propeller. 

 

The mark II in production emerge from the factory in a similar state to the stored mark I.  "require from England, wheels, brakes, air compressors and drives and couplers for same, hydraulic pump drives and couplings, airscrews and instruments".  It seems these items were on order from Britain.  7 Merlin 28 had arrived at Fort William by 10 December.  End of information from letter.

The PJ serial airframes, the ex RCF order ones, were stripped so as to be the same standard as mark II production.  While the final JS serials had their radiators removed to be used in Mosquitoes. 

 

So my conclusion of when mark II production began, based on the RAF contract cards, is incorrect.  While 30 of the stored airframes were converted to mark IIB before arrival in Britain by the looks of the RAF documents.

 

The statement AG665 onwards were built as mark IIB needs to have the starting serials changed to AG341 (or 343) and then AG672 on.  There is a good chance all CCF mark II were IIB,

 

The BW serials order, CCF was notified on 18 April 1941 and it originally included 100 Sea Hurricanes but that was quickly changed to 50.  Then 15 Sea Hurricanes to the RCAF in January 1942 as a loan, more followed after the Merchant Ship Fighter Scheme was stopped.

 

Mark X, proposed mark number for Sea Hurricane with Merlin 29, not used. (as noted earlier the Dutch called their Hurricane mark X)

Mark XI, proposed mark number for ex RAF order Hurricane I with Merlin 29, not used.

Mark XII.  The RCAF order were officially Mark IIB (Can) until they were renamed mark XII on 16 April 1943 while mark XIIA was used for the 8 gun wing, the Sea and mark I conversions.

 

The plans for more advanced training in Canada using Hurricanes.  As noted the idea was around in mid 1941, using 100 aircraft, the original aircraft were reallocated but in January 1942 the plan was still 102 Hurricanes for 1 OTU, however the RCAF insisted they be built after the RCAF order, to be equipped with Merlin 28 and at best semi-officially called mark IIB (Eng), in the end these airframes were sent to Britain,

[ClaudioN]

16 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

While 30 of the stored airframes were converted to mark IIB before arrival in Britain by the looks of the RAF documents.

This at last begins to suggest an explanation to the indication "converted to Mark IIB", that is reported by Mason and by Sturtivant for a number of CCF Hurricanes. Now that they can be grouped by RCAF serials, it turns out this is present only for aircraft coming from that group of 30.

Mason's and Sturtivant's books, as well as Air Britain serial lists, do record "converted to..." for many, but not for all: I counted 20 out of 30, although subsequent service lives suggests the annotation might simply be missing from the paperwork of the remaining 10. 

 

Just a few (three, including AG341) are recorded as "converted to Mark IIC", in which case I suspect conversion was achieved in two steps, to Mark IIB in Canada, then to Mark IIC in Britain by replacing the outer wing panels. A few also served in the FAA aboard carriers during Operation Torch and, again, I believe the arrester hook was fitted in Britain. Those FAA Mark IIs operated from escort carriers that did not have 'accelerators'. This meant 'free' take-offs, hence no need for catapult spools and padded headrest for the pilot, just the hook and the associated strengthening. 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

We know one of the 61 airframes AG287, AG292 to AG344 and AG665 to AG671 was not in storage, based on the list Carl and Elizabeth provided, either AG343 or 341, one of these needs to be dropped and since AG341 was as far as I can tell not delivered until 1943, I recommend AG341.

 

Firstly to verify the airframes we are talking about, the ones put in storage in Canada but ultimately shipped to Britain, AG292, 7, 8, AG301, 3, AG320, 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, AG331, 33 to 40, AG342, 3, 4, AG665 to 71.  Total 30. 

 

Mason lists AG298, AG301, AG320, 1, 4, 8, 9, AG333, 6, 9, AG343, 4, total 12 as converted to IIB and sent to Russia,

 

Sturtivant lists AG292, AG332, 4, 5, AG340, AG666, 7, 9 all as IIB, with AG292, 340, AG666, 7 converted to IIC and AG334 maybe converted.

 

Do these look correct?

 

What are the Air Britain listings and what do they say?

 

The delivery logs have AG666, 7 listed as IIC, AG671 converted from IIB to IIC, all the others IIB, no conversions mentioned from mark I.  To RN AG292, AG334, 5, AG340, AG666, 7

 

The Mason report seems to come from a shipping list to Russia, which is missing AG303, note he is calling the AG serials mark X, that is US Merlin and many as A wing so being listed as a IIB on the shipping list would indicate a conversion from what he thinks they were produced as.

 

The letter that talks about the stored airframes implies they are all A wing and the photographs of those in RCAF service indicate A wing, so we have a choice of conversions, from IA to IIA in Canada then to IIB in Britain or from IA to IIB in Canada or from IA to IIB in Britain.  Any others?

[ClaudioN]

19 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

What are the Air Britain listings and what do they say?

Cv IIB:

AG298, AG301, AG320-AG322, AG324, AG328-AG329, AG331, AG333-AG336, AG339-AG340, AG343-AG344 (total: 17)

Cv IIC:

AG292, AG341, AG671

 

But also:

AG665-AG684: 20 Hawker Hurricane IIBs delivered by Canadian Car and Foundry, Fort William, Ont. This implies AG665-AG671 all converted to Mark II.

 

Just five are left unreported but, given their users, I believe we can assume simply forgotten.

AG297 to 128 Sqn. RAF, SOC 31.5.45

AG303 to Russia 24.9.42

AG337 to 2 Sqn., then 6 Sqn. Royal Indian Air Force

AG338 to 2 Sqn. Royal Indian Air Force, then 607/20 Sqn. RAF

AG342 to 28/20 Sqn. RAF

 

19 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Sturtivant lists AG292, AG332, 4, 5, AG340, AG666, 7, 9 all as IIB, with AG292, 340, AG666, 7 converted to IIC and AG334 maybe converted.

AG292 - IIB cv IIC

AG332 - IIB, but clearly an error for AG322: to RN charge 8.12.42, which agrees with Air Britain entry for AG322

AG334 - IIB cv IIC ? not before Operation Torch, reported flown by S/L Crosley witi 12-gun wing. I believe possibly converted during repair after barrier crash on Biter 8.11.42.

AG335 - IIB

AG340 - IIB cv IIC

AG666 - IIB cv IIC

AG667 - IIB cv IIC

AG669 - IIB

These are all Fleet Air Arm machines.

 

With FAA aircraft we open another minor chapter. Seemingly, the intention was to field cannon-armed machines for Operation Torch, but for some late arrivals there was probably too litle time to replace the 12-gun wings with the cannon wings. How many? JS327, force-landed on a beach in Algeria 8.11.42, was also a Mark IIB at the time.

 

19 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The letter that talks about the stored airframes implies they are all A wing and the photographs of those in RCAF service indicate A wing, so we have a choice of conversions, from IA to IIA in Canada then to IIB in Britain or from IA to IIB in Canada or from IA to IIB in Britain.  Any others?

Please, let us keep the 30 RCAF machines separate from the 30 not taken up by the RCAF.

1. for the RCAF machines no conversion at all: just fit Merlin III and cropped Fairey Battle propellers. Conversion to Mk. XIIA later, which means a minimum-effort conversion: lengthened engine mount, suitable adjustment for carburettor air intake, new radiator, Merlin 29 engine, new propeller. They retained eight-gun wings throughout their life. Notes from Carl and Elizabeth make this clear enough;
2. for the other 30 machines, conversion to Mark IIA in Canada followed by conversion to Mark IIB in Britain possible, but doing things (partly) twice seems such a waste of work;
3. conversion from Mark I to Mark IIB: for what we know equally likely in Canada and Britain. However, there's a hint that Sea Hurricane centre wing sections might have come from other machines in the AGxxx range. Should this be confirmed, I could think conversion in Canada (with Mark I components taken off and reused on Sea Hurricanes) would be more likely.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

As far as I can tell we can drop the FAA aircraft for the moment as Sturtivant is reporting their version on arrival to the FAA, so after CCF and RAF work.

 

Thanks for the Air Britain listings.  The first obvious question is converted from what?  The reason I mentioned the RCAF aircraft the 60 stored airframes were A wing and that is how they *should* have been sent to Britain unless CCF manufactured another up to 30 sets of B wings.  So converted to IIB could mean from IIA.  It is unlikely CCF was taking A wings from stored aircraft to fit to Sea Hurricanes and replacing them with B wings, start with the fact all Sea Hurricanes had their wings as of 10 December and how ready the aircraft in storage are reported.

 

Air Britain reporting AG665-71 were mark IIB on arrival in Britain says at least some wing swaps had to occur, or maybe since they were operating mark I the RCAF kept some A wings as spares.  I know the Taken on Charge dates need to be used with caution, but for AG673 (not 2) to AG684 they are basically linear, from 28 February to 12 March 1942, for AG665 to 672 they are, in order in 1942, 29 April, 2x30 April, 13 March, 6 March, 2 March, 30 April and 14 April. The later serials clearly arriving first.

 

Does “unreported” mean there is no data against the serials or no mention of conversion?

 

Our anchor points are the 60 stored airframes (59 built in July/August, 1 in October) which end in serial AG671 (excluding AG341/3), the inventory of Sea Hurricanes as of 10 December 1941 being 15 despatched, 9 ready for despatch, 26 complete except for generator couplings and some wheels, while mark IIB were in production at a rate of 2 per day, and being exported as rapidly as possible.  The Sea Hurricane taken on Charge dates say 31 delivered by end December 1941.  Official Hurricane production (all types) for November was 31 and then 70 in December.   To add to the complexity the aircraft arriving in Britain in December 1941 were *not* AG672 to AG684, nor AM270 to 296, the next set of serials ordered, but from around AM297 onwards, this 40 or so airframe gap, along with the 60 stored, meets the requirement of 100 aircraft for 1 Operational Training Unit in Canada, as noted in other documents.

 

Now to move into trying to make the pieces fit.  Production is 31 in November plus around 20 aircraft built to 10 December that need to account for any Sea Hurricanes and 40+, say 50, other airframes being produced *if* production was in serial order, given the serials of the early mark II arrivals in Britain.  Highly doubtful.  Going the other way all Sea Hurricanes, by using slave equipment, could have been tested and officially produced by 10 December, again highly doubtful as that would mean mark II were just coming off the line and the first 7 needed to be in Britain in 3 weeks.  We know CCF had Sea Hurricanes being assembled in September so it is highly likely all 50 Sea Hurricanes airframes came off the line before any other new airframes did, but the fact the Sea Hurricanes had to be in flyable condition says some at least were officially produced later than the first mark II which had an airframe only requirement for it to be counted.

 

We can then turn to the possibility CCF had a number of partially built airframes moved off the production line while awaiting parts, in order to build the Sea Hurricane, maybe up to 40 partially built mark I airframes from AG672 onwards, given the would be the same version as the stored airframes, to complete the allotment for 1 OTU.  Deduct them and deduct the 24 Sea Hurricanes despatched or ready to be despatched and it means around 26 mark II built in November to around 10 December of which 7 made it to Britain in December.  I doubt we will find the exact numbers but the simplest conclusion is November to 10 December 1941 there are a mixture of Sea Hurricanes and mark II officially built, while a number of partially built airframes have been moved off the production line and will ultimately be delivered as mark II when the decision is taken to defer equipping 1 OTU.

 

A point to consider is that until around August 1941 CCF was building airframes where almost all the parts were being made in Canada but which needed significant amounts of equipment to complete after arriving in Britain, then it was confronted with the need to make 150 complete aircraft, which required more parts from Britain and the line suddenly shut down for around 2 months.

 

Now to add in the reports parts from the 24001-40 construction number block (AG665-84, then AM270-89) ended up in Sea Hurricanes.  That at least fits with the idea a number of airframes from AG672 to around AM297 were available as either partially built or still to be built airframes.  Jumping to assumption mode, production of around 60 a month drops to 11 in August 1941, so unless it was an unlikely planned shut down there would be a number of partially assembled airframes, all marked to be kept in Canada for the training system, in the assembly hall.  They are moved into storage or are cannibalised and the Sea Hurricanes started, unless I am mistaken the requirement for 100 aircraft for the OTU included reserves, so the final 40 are not as high an immediate priority for the training system and certainly behind the Sea Hurricanes, so they or their parts are available for higher priority aircraft.

 

In summary CCF was actually producing Hurricane mark I airframes for the RAF to mid 1941 and had received a change of direction to produce completed aircraft, 100 mark I for training, 50 Sea for the RN.  This required more imports of airframe components and when those imports failed the line was forced to shut down, leaving the area with 59 near complete airframes in storage, around 40 or so partially assembled airframes that were moved off the line (or reworked/reallocated) to enable Sea Hurricane assembly.  When the line reopened it completed a final mark I and the Sea Hurricanes while moving to mark II airframe production, including completing the partially assembled airframes as mark II.  30 of the mark I airframes in storage sent to Britain became mark II, either before or after leaving Canada, the conversion program for the other airframes suggest and RAF documents say before leaving Canada.  Quite neat, though why CCF could not have started a mark II airframe assembly line in mid 1941 needs an explanation, lack of imported components is the simplest reason.

 

One side point part of the confusion about which were IIB and IIC could easily be the fitting of IIC wings made in Britain during assembly and retaining the Canadian built IIB wings as spares.

[ClaudioN]

Hello Geoffrey,

 

short answers, I hope they may suffice.

16 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Does “unreported” mean there is no data against the serials or no mention of conversion?

There is no mention of conversion. Eventual fates I gave for the five machines are taken from A-B.

 

16 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

In summary CCF was actually producing Hurricane mark I airframes for the RAF to mid 1941 and had received a change of direction to produce completed aircraft, 100 mark I for training, 50 Sea for the RN.  This required more imports of airframe components and when those imports failed the line was forced to shut down, leaving the area with 59 near complete airframes in storage, around 40 or so partially assembled airframes that were moved off the line (or reworked/reallocated) to enable Sea Hurricane assembly.  When the line reopened it completed a final mark I and the Sea Hurricanes while moving to mark II airframe production, including completing the partially assembled airframes as mark II.  30 of the mark I airframes in storage sent to Britain became mark II, either before or after leaving Canada, the conversion program for the other airframes suggest and RAF documents say before leaving Canada.  Quite neat, though why CCF could not have started a mark II airframe assembly line in mid 1941 needs an explanation, lack of imported components is the simplest reason.

 

One side point part of the confusion about which were IIB and IIC could easily be the fitting of IIC wings made in Britain during assembly and retaining the Canadian built IIB wings as spares.

I think your post summarises the situation quite well.

If Sea Hurricanes were slowed down by lack of imported components, I should think their completion could proceed in parallel with the building of new Mark II airframes. The calculation of deliveries from November 1941:

11/41      26 Hurricane Mark II      5  Sea Hurricane      Total: 31

12/41     44 Hurricane Mark II     26  Sea Hurricane     Total: 70

1/42       44 Hurricane Mark II     19  Sea Hurricane     Total: 63

2/42      64  Hurricane Mark II

shows that delivery rate was back to two per day by December 1941, becoming two Mark IIs per day by February 1942.

 

About conversions: given a Mark I airframe, conversion to Mark IIB means that

• outer wings with eight guns have to be replaced
• consequently, the wing centre section needs replacement by the new, reinforced section (Series 2)
• the engine mount ahead of the fire wall needs replacement, or lengthening

Since the fuselage is what determines an airframe identity, and the constructor number plate is fixed in the cockpit, we are basically left with a number plate surrounded by some fuselage structure. The amount of work is considerable and I think less difficult at the manufacturer's. I suggest this is what "converted to...", in aircraft delivery logs and/or other documentation, refers to.

 

Cheers

Claudio

 

 

[gingerbob]

One fly in the ointment- the center section is fairly integral with the fuselage structure on the Hurricane, is it not?  I would think it would be no simple matter to remove and replace.

 

This is as good a time as any to point out that this is an exceptional thread- sharing of information/thoughts, including reactions to thoughts, with a collaborative spirit and actually getting somewhere new, it seems!

[ClaudioN]

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

One fly in the ointment- the center section is fairly integral with the fuselage structure on the Hurricane, is it not?  I would think it would be no simple matter to remove and replace.

Honestly I have no idea of the amount of engineering work involved, but it doesn't look too complicated here.

Edited July 26, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

So Air Britain considers all AG serials to AG344 to be mark I, mostly converted to mark II and AG665 to 684 all mark II.  So yet another reference that has its own ideas.  The 5 unreported serials,

AG297 to 128 Sqn. RAF, SOC 31.5.45.  Squadron was at Sierra Leone and reported using Hurricane I to January 1943, mark II from November 1942 to March 1943.  AG297 was sent to the Middle East on 8 September 1942.

AG303 to Russia 24.9.42 The Russians would not have accepted a mark I that late.

AG337 to 2 Sqn. then 6 Sqn. Royal Indian Air Force, AG338 to 2 Sqn. Royal Indian Air Force, then 607/20 Sqn. RAF.  AG337 shipped to India 28 August 1942, AG338 on 8 November 1942, while 607 squadron stopped using mark I in September 1941 and the Indian Air force says it operated mark II.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons/2-Squadron.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons/6-Squadron.html

AG342 to 28/20 Sqn. RAF 28 squadron reports only using mark II, IIB from December 1942 to April 1944, IIC March 1944 to October 1945, 20 squadron used IIB January to May 1943, IID March 1943 to September 1945, IV December 1944 to September 1945.

So apart from AG297 the service usage says they were all mark II and it seems reasonable to assume AG297 was a mark II.

The letter dated 10 December 1941 has Sea Hurricane status being 15 despatched, 9 ready for despatch, 26 complete except for generator couplings and some wheels while mark IIB were in production at a rate of 2 per day.  I read that to mean all Sea Hurricane airframes were off the assembly line, with some but not all had been officially produced.  The Taken on Charge dates would be after the official production dates, so there were probably more than 5 Sea Hurricanes officially produced in November.

The conclusion is CCF mark I Hurricanes were all serials to AG671 less AG341.  Air Britain declaring all the AG665 to 684 being mark II can be taken as evidence they were converted before leaving Canada, the import reports, RAF and Ministry of Aircraft Production reports also say no mark I imports after August 1941, but Air Britain reporting conversions, presumably from the individual aircraft cards, suggests some conversions were done in Britain.  Given Carl and Elizabeth’s clear depth of information they seem the only obvious source to provide more evidence to firm up the conclusions.

[Graham Boak]

607 converted to Mk.IIB Hurribombers in the UK, using new aircraft in the BExxx serial range.  It later moved to India as a pure fighter unit with Mk.IIBs and a few C.  Any reference to use in India must be to Mk.IIs.

[ClaudioN]

11 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Air Britain reporting conversions, presumably from the individual aircraft cards, suggests some conversions were done in Britain.

Could it be that "converted to Mk. II" simply reports what happened at CCF?

Of course conversion in Britain is a possibility, but it sounds odd: "a few converted here, a few there"... i'd expect the full batch was taken care of in one place.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

4 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Could it be that "converted to Mk. II" simply reports what happened at CCF?

Of course conversion in Britain is a possibility, but it sounds odd: "a few converted here, a few there"... i'd expect the full batch was taken care of in one place.

The letter with the list of Hurricanes in store is dated 31 January 1942 replying to one sent on the 21st and as of that time it was 60 for the RCAF with "a possibility ... may be reduced to 30, but I am awaiting written confirmation regarding this point".  Thanks again Carl and Elizabeth.

The 30 sent to Britain, AG serials, Taken on Charge or Arrival at Maintenance Unit dates, * means MU date, and where both an MU and ToC date are given they are the same.

Feb-42 343*
Mar-42 297*, 301*, 668, 670
Apr-42 303*, 320*, 321*, 324*, 329*, 333*, 334, 335*, 339, 340, 342, 344, 665, 666, 667, 671
May-42 292*, 322*, 328*, 331*, 336, 337, 338, 669

Others: 298 Russia Jun-42, which implies it is one of the earlier arrivals.

 

The above arrival times are consistent with the AG672-684, and early AM serials, the ones needed to make the 100 mark I for Canada.  The ones that were probably mostly on the assembly line when it shut down and remained partially assembled but moved aside/suspended so the Sea Hurricanes could be built.  By the way, in the September Sea Hurricane assembly hall photograph, people are confident the airframes on the other side are mark I, how confident about Sea mark I, not standard mark I?  Things like radiator fits were done to the stored mark I or at least radiators are not listed as needed to make them flyable.

 

They key date above is AG343 at 13 MU on 25 February 1942, then comes 297 on 2 March (but just possibly May, the writing is hard to read).

 

The aircraft had to be disassembled for shipping, so if the stored aircraft were assembled CCF could substitute new mark II parts for the relevant mark I easily enough during packing.  If they were disassembled that actually might be harder depending on how much packing had been done and what parts were packed together, unpack mark I parts, substitute mark II, (re)pack for export sort of thing.  60 Hurricanes would take up a fair amount of room, admittedly removing the outer wing panels would save much space, so would they be stored in as complete a state as possible or would some work be done to reduce storage space requirements?

 

If the decision was taken to reduce the RCAF allotment to 30 in late January and CCF were aware Britain would only accept mark II, there is just enough time to have one of the stored airframes upgraded and arrive at an MU in Britain on 25 February, we know from the 1941 exports it can take under a month from Canada to Britain, the arrival date of AG343 shows this again, but the upgrade process has to be along the lines of move mark II parts in and mark I out in hours not days of extra time versus just packing the existing airframe.  The RAF etc. say all upgrade work was in Canada, logic says all the stored and partially built airframes could go through a standard process of upgrade at CCF before shipping.  Air Britain is putting up a warning sign but that warning sign has its own problems by saying AG667-71 were IIB when it is definite they were mark I as built.

[ClaudioN]

13 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The aircraft had to be disassembled for shipping, so if the stored aircraft were assembled CCF could substitute new mark II parts for the relevant mark I easily enough during packing.  If they were disassembled that actually might be harder depending on how much packing had been done and what parts were packed together, unpack mark I parts, substitute mark II, (re)pack for export sort of thing.  60 Hurricanes would take up a fair amount of room, admittedly removing the outer wing panels would save much space, so would they be stored in as complete a state as possible or would some work be done to reduce storage space requirements?

The answer to your question is possibly here. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

 

ROYAL AIR FORCE: WEST AFRICA COMMAND, 1941-1945.. © IWM (CM 3022) IWM Non Commercial License

This picture shows Hurricanes being taken out of their crates at Takoradi. I may think they show a standard arrangement for shipping a Hurricane. If so, there are not many disassembled parts, other than outer wings, propeller and, possibly, fin and tailplanes.

 

The Hurricane structure appears to be remarkably modular, I believe the changes we are discussing could be made reasonably quickly, provided new parts were at hand.

Edited July 27, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Changing the outer wings and front fuselage are simple enough, the wing centre section is in the photograph, connected to the fuselage and the undercarriage, to replace that you need to lift the fuselage off at least, maybe disconnect the main undercarriage and move it to the new wing centre section.  However we know none of the stored mark I had wheels, brakes, tyres or tubes, so what they were resting on becomes an issue, perhaps chocks or trestles or they were more disassembled than the ones in the photograph.