Which RLM79?

[Briggers]

Hello, I have a Revell BF109 F-2/4 waiting to be started. The colours state RLM 79, but being new to military models i looked it up and it seems there's two, Sand Yellow and Sand Brown.

Could someone advise me as to which one would be the correct colour for the Messerschmitt?

 

Thanks

[Graham Boak]

The yellower version of RLM 79 is for the earlier stage in the campaign, mainly on Es, and often thought (wrongly) to be Italian paint.  For the Fs I'd choose the later RLM 79 Sand Brown, although I'm not familiar with the exact name (possibly because I've just painted a Panzer Mk.II in Afrika Korps Sand Braun, which is a different colour.).  Which paints are you thinking of using?

 

[LotusArenco]

18 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

often thought (wrongly) to be Italian paint.

Awww Graham, you just piddled on my fire of learning today.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235018286-airfix-bf-109e-7trop-colours/

 

"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." - Some literary bloke.

 

 

Mart

[Graham Boak]

Sorry about that: It was noted researcher and writer Ken Merrick who first suggested some decades back that the early colours might be Italian paints, and the idea - being highly sensible on a number of grounds - was seized on by the enthusiast/modelling world and quoted as if gospel.  He has since found original German data for the existence of two different standards of RLM 79, and published this in his work for Classic pubs.  Beyond what he wrote, it seems possible to me that the Germans looked at Italian colours before doing their early work,  as they would have seen them in Spain if not anywhere else.  However as there were at least four different Mimetico Gallo used by the Italians it certainly isn't clear to me just which one was supposed to have been used by the Luftwaffe anyway.

 

However, as far as looking for tins of modelling paint I don't think that it matters a hoot what the origin of the colour was, however interesting it is in itself.  Look for what it says on the tin.

[Briggers]

Thanks, I was going to get the Mr Hobby Aqueous paints.

[Duncan B]

6 hours ago, Briggers said:

Thanks, I was going to get the Mr Hobby Aqueous paints.

That's the one I would use or Mr Paint which is also very nice.

 

Duncan B

[Fernando]

Hi, Graham,

 

The darker RLM79 seems rather like Nocciola Chiaro, not any Giallo Mimetico. Roughly similar to FS30219.

 

Fernando

[Graham Boak]

I agree with you.  It was the earlier yellower one that was thought to be the use of Italian paints not the later.  The colour shift from early 79 to late 79 certainly seems to have been in the same direction as Giallo Mimetico to Nocciola Chiaro, but it seems to have been independent.  It is always possible that there was some communication between specialists, or at least information having been exchanged by some route, but to counter this the underside colours did not move similarly.  The change in the Luftwaffe blues seems to better match the pattern of the British change to a deeper blue, the italians remaining a light grey.  Unless my information is out-of date?

[Fernando]

53 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

  Unless my information is out-of date?

Hi, Graham,

Not TMK. Have not yet seen an (indigenous) Italian WW2 day fighter with anything else than Grigio Azzurro Chiaro  (indeed a light grey) undersurfaces.

Fernando

Edited March 13, 2017 by Fernando

[Guest]

Hey guys, I still use model master enamels. I have the lighter color RLM 79 but they do not make the golden brown later version (I too have an F model that I want to decal with Marsailles yellow 14) so any ideas as to mixing the right hue. I see the color on Black 6 (and originally thought the color to be incorrect for RLM 79!) but have recently been re-educated on the correct color. Should I use a brown of some sort and add the lighter version, or vice-versa? I was just about to spray my 109 when I happened upon this thread, which halted my work on my plane. Any help would be appreciated.

cheers

SA

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

Hey guys, I still use model master enamels. I have the lighter color RLM 79 but they do not make the golden brown later version (I too have an F model that I want to decal with Marsailles yellow 14) so any ideas as to mixing the right hue. I see the color on Black 6 (and originally thought the color to be incorrect for RLM 79!) but have recently been re-educated on the correct color. Should I use a brown of some sort and add the lighter version, or vice-versa? I was just about to spray my 109 when I happened upon this thread, which halted my work on my plane. Any help would be appreciated.

cheers

SA

SA,

 

Modelmaster 2088, RLM 79, looks to be very close to  FS33434, which has been described in some references as an approximation for the earlier (yellow) version of RLM 79. I have read references that quote FS30219 and FS30227 as close approximations for the later (brown) version of RLM 79. Years ago, I mixed the brown version, which checked against my FS color chip as an almost exact match for FS30227, but I don't remember if  I used Floquil or Modelmaster  paint for the mix. I am NO expert on Luftwaffe colors, so am hoping one of our regulars who has the  knowledge can help you further. My 30227 mix looks pretty good to this old Mk 1a eyeball, but don't quote me!

Mike

[Jens]

6 hours ago, 72modeler said:

SA,

 

Modelmaster 2088, RLM 79, looks to be very close to  FS33434, which has been described in some references as an approximation for the earlier (yellow) version of RLM 79. I have read references that quote FS30219 and FS30227 as close approximations for the later (brown) version of RLM 79. Years ago, I mixed the brown version, which checked against my FS color chip as an almost exact match for FS30227, but I don't remember if  I used Floquil or Modelmaster  paint for the mix. I am NO expert on Luftwaffe colors, so am hoping one of our regulars who has the  knowledge can help you further. My 30227 mix looks pretty good to this old Mk 1a eyeball, but don't quote me!

Mike

 

Comparing a colour sample to a colour chip which itself is an approximation of the original colour will most likely not be very accurate. It would be most better to compare them to the RLM colour chips in the Merrick Luftwaffe books.

 

HTH,

 

Jens

[Nick Millman]

Although wary of Luftwaffe colour debates, as it happens I have measured the chips in the various books, including the older Monogram.

 

FWIW the closest FS value to the RLM 79 chip in Tafel 5 of 1941 is FS 10219 at 2.80 where < 2.0 = a close match. The RLM colour is a little more pinkish. FS 30227 is further away at 6.85, significantly lighter and more towards beige with less red, but both are Munsell Yellow-Red (YR) hues. For a model considerations of scale and weathering might be borne in mind. I was surprised to find no remotely close RAL hues, not one.     

 

The RLM 79 chip in the Monogram book is closer to FS 30215 at 1.95, again both YR. 

 

The difference between the two chips is 2.67. The Tafel 41 is a tad lighter and "pinker", the Monogram slightly more "brown saturated" and yellower. 

 

Nick

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Nick Millman said:

Although wary of Luftwaffe colour debates, as it happens I have measured the chips in the various books, including the older Monogram.

 

FWIW the closest FS value to the RLM 79 chip in Tafel 5 of 1941 is FS 10219 at 2.80 where < 2.0 = a close match. The RLM colour is a little more pinkish. FS 30227 is further away at 6.85, significantly lighter and more towards beige with less red, but both are Munsell Yellow-Red (YR) hues. For a model considerations of scale and weathering might be borne in mind. I was surprised to find no remotely close RAL hues, not one.     

 

The RLM 79 chip in the Monogram book is closer to FS 30215 at 1.95, again both YR. 

 

The difference between the two chips is 2.67. The Tafel 41 is a tad lighter and "pinker", the Monogram slightly more "brown saturated" and yellower. 

 

Nick

Thanks again Nick, I will do my best to at least get close on the color. Testors makes a military brown that is a bit reddish in color. I believe I can get close to the color by mixing in some RLM 79. Do you think the paint scheme on Black 6 is at least close to the actual color? The 109 at  the POF museum (the Russian swamp find) has sections where the darker RLM 79 exists, unless the Germans had a reddish brown primer coat. Of course being in a swamp/marsh for 60 years may have an effect on the paint right?

Cheers

Edited March 25, 2017 by Spitfire addict
Needed to add info

[72modeler]

6 hours ago, Nick Millman said:

Although wary of Luftwaffe colour debates, as it happens I have measured the chips in the various books, including the older Monogram.

 

FWIW the closest FS value to the RLM 79 chip in Tafel 5 of 1941 is FS 10219 at 2.80 where < 2.0 = a close match. The RLM colour is a little more pinkish. FS 30227 is further away at 6.85, significantly lighter and more towards beige with less red, but both are Munsell Yellow-Red (YR) hues. For a model considerations of scale and weathering might be borne in mind. I was surprised to find no remotely close RAL hues, not one.     

 

The RLM 79 chip in the Monogram book is closer to FS 30215 at 1.95, again both YR. 

 

The difference between the two chips is 2.67. The Tafel 41 is a tad lighter and "pinker", the Monogram slightly more "brown saturated" and yellower. 

 

Nick

Nick,

 

After rechecking my paint bottles, shaking the bejeezus out of them, re-examining my FS595  chips and all of my Luftwaffe reference library paint chips, I discovered I had my bottle of hand-mixed RLM79 (yellow) mislabeled as 30219. It does match FS33434 pretty closely. I had another bottle of handmixed Floquil that I had labeled 30100 for some reason, but which matched the FS30219 chip almost exactly- just needs to be a little darker. Thanks for your input on this. When/if I get around to my Bf-109F-4z and Fw-190A/trop, I will know what the color is supposed to look like. Muchas gracias, amigo!

Mike